MeepMeep - 2015-05-17 11:16 AM Sometimes things on paper don't work but in practice they do. If you haven't used it or seen it I don't see how you can have such a strong opinion on it. Draw reins and draw bits are not brutal. Quite the opposite, they are very forgiving. The idea of them being cruel is old school. It's not like you are hanging on their face, forcing their head down. You don't have the right information on the use of draw reins and draw bits if you think they are cruel

cavyrunsbarrels - 2015-05-17 11:38 AM

I never said draw bits were cruel. Used incorrectly they could be, as could any bit. As for draw reins, yes they are a tool and I'm by no means anti-training aid, but they are severe and unforgiving because they require perfect reaction from the rider. The fulcrum is the horse's mouth, when the reins are tightened there's no place for their nose to go but back. If their nose goes past the vertical, which it frequently does with draw reins, that's not benefitting the horse in any way. It strains their poll, neck, and back, and does not teach them to accept true contact or move in a healthy, free outline. I have seen more than a few horses being ridden around with their noses tucked to their chests in tight draw reins. That's abusive and dangerous.
Call me old school if you want, it's a complement especially when you see the way some people in every discipline ride now a days. I was raised on classical dressage. You do everything in a snaffle first. Leverage bits are added later on for finesse, not to "fix" problems. Training aids are used sparingly as an aid and as reinforcement.

I'm not trying to target you, I just feel very strongly about this topic.

paturninburnin89 - 2015-05-17 4:08 PM

Wow was definitely asking for opinions and i sure got some. Lol...i am not a beginner and was really just asking what others use. A horse i am asking about was not trained by me and has rode like thi. for probably his whole life by his old owne. .. He is 16 so its more difficult getting a 16 yr old thats hard mouthed and has rode like this his whole life to start collecting and soften up rather then a youngster. Thanks for all of the ideas :)

cheryl makofka - 2015-05-17 3:31 PM


My understanding is a little different regarding draw gags.

When you pull on a draw gag, yes the bit goes up but this cerastes more pressure on the lips, by pulling on the reins you are also applying poll pressure which should get the horse to drop his head and bring his nose in.

What the bit does in the mouth depends on the mouthpiece, if the mouthpiece is not fixed, it shouldn't go up or hit the palate, but stay in the same place and apply tongue and bar pressure along with the lip pressure I already spoke about.

I haven't used both together, and probably won't. The reason I won't use both together is I am aware of my hands and I know my limitations.

For someone asking how to soften a horse up, these two aids may not be a good choice.

Personally I like a German martingale as I still have the contact of the rein, but when I release the martingale releases giving the horse relief. Depending on how you set it up you can have the martingale make contact first by having it tighter, or have the reins make contact first by having the martingale looser.

If the horse is a little hard mouthed, I would probably go to a leverage bit such as a Sheri cervi diamond lifter, if he is soft I would use a snaffle, both bits will work well with a German martingale.

If this was a colt, then I would do it the old fashioned way pressure and release, once he had this down pat, I would probably use a German martingale when starting on the barrels just to emphasize headset and assist with collection

equussynergy - 2015-05-17 10:51 AM

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S6J70lijTAk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUaBgdyyOqE

paturninburnin89 - 2015-05-17 5:08 PM

Wow was definitely asking for opinions and i sure got some. Lol...i am not a beginner and was really just asking what others use. A horse i am asking about was not trained by me and has rode like thi. for probably his whole life by his old owne. .. He is 16 so its more difficult getting a 16 yr old thats hard mouthed and has rode like this his whole life to start collecting and soften up rather then a youngster. Thanks for all of the ideas :)

Barnmom - 2015-05-17 6:45 PM

What ever bit he respects enough to allow you to be soft with your hands.  On horses like that Ed Wrights pretzel bit works good.  You are not going to make a horse like the one you describe soft by having him lug around in a O ring.   

cavyrunsbarrels - 2015-05-17 11:59 PM Yes! It sounds like you have the action of the bit correct. The issue with using them together is you are using opposite forces to do the same thing. Especially if the draw reins are fastened between the legs. I DO like German martingales a bit more than the draw reins because, like you stated, they give an automatic release and depending on where you set it will not force the head behind the vertical. They're not great for long term use or to be used all the time because the horse should be able to travel long and low with their head not stuck in any one position. For this reason I like Chambons for lunging and running martingales for riding (if you simply MUST use one). Tack and it's effect on horses has been my obsession from childhood. I've worked with a variety of trainers in numerous disciplines including grand prix level dressage trainers and A circuit huntseat trainers. I know what the heck I'm talking about and my only concern is for the welfare of the horse.

paturninburnin89 - 2015-05-17 5:54 AM

I have been riding him in an o ring snaffle i just wasnt sure if there was a better option. I dont ask for much just a little and release. Hes 16yr old naturally high headed and previous owners have allowed hm to ride with 0 collection. I am not expecting a western pleasure horse but i do expect him to collect and soften when asked to.

Bibliafarm - 2015-05-19 9:15 AM


If used by a professional draw reins do not do all that you said.. you have to work them over their back.. not the way you described..when used properly they can benefit in teaching a horse how to use his back and over his poll correctly.. I have used them sparingly in horses that are hard and unwilling to half halt them back to their hind but ALWAYS keep them over their back.. and rounded up..release must be there in the exact moments.. its not for beginners to just use to cure a issue.. but  you have to place them correctly.. down between legs and ride with them loosely as reenforcements nd onyl with a 3 piece snaffle...... to encourage horse to reach down and round.. not where you are saying.. so please dont assume all riders use them incorrectly and they have no benefit at all.. all training AIDS can be brutal is not used correctly.. even the chambons and side reins.. if placed wrong or to tight you can mess your horse up . 

cavyrunsbarrels - 2015-05-19 12:52 PM


I'm sure there's a handful of riders somewhere on this earth that can use them in a beneficial way...I've just yet to see one. And I know for darn sure that anybody using a draw rein ALONE with no other normal rein is using them very, very wrong.