|
|
 Expert
Posts: 2276
  
Location: ohio-in my own little world with pretty ponies :) | I think that is a pretty unsafe rule when that is not something they are taught. In 4H here in Ohio we have to stop forward motion once we enter the arena or we get disqualified. | |
| | |
 Veteran
Posts: 287
| I also wanna be clear, by forward motion, I don't mean hell bent for leather. I mean walking, or trotting, controlled lope. I just feel it's safest for horse and rider to be dialed and keyed in on their job, not waiting for a judge. | |
| | |
The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
 
| I believe the reason this rule was put into place is more for the gaming events which run horses side by side.
The rules where I live in Alberta are you must have control of your horse when entering an arena, and the gate must be closed before the judge can blow the whistle.
Control of your horse is open for interpretation and is a judges discretion.
With the gaming events they cannot change one rule for barrel then go back to the old rule for the two horses running events, as this can confuse a horse.
Not all 4h people are at the same level of riding abilities, so I have to agree with the rule however it is written in your area, as children safety is the most important.
In the years I was in 4h in the gaming events even with the safety rules, at our regional show, there was always a few wrecks that required ambulances, I cannot even fathom how many were prevented with the starting rules | |
| | |
Veteran
Posts: 287
| Also, I don't think it should be differeny for barrels then go back to acknowledging the judge for others. I think across the board, they should not be focusing on that judge but on their pattern. Whichever pattern they may be on. I do agree with not starting a run until the gate is closed. But that doesnt require fighting a horse to stand still to make that happen | |
| | |
 Dancing in my Mind
Posts: 3062
Location: Eastern OH but my heart is in WV | We just ran into this issue on Saturday with my daughter's barrel horse also at a youth rodeo. We are going to have to make some serious decisions about if we are going to run him in the series now because it really upset him being held back at the gate and he was not going to stop or circle before running either. I COMPLTETLY understand not being allowed to run the gate from far out but once they are at the gate I don't understand why they have to stop forward motion. | |
| | |
The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| wickedstepmother - 2015-06-01 9:41 PM
Also, I don't think it should be differeny for barrels then go back to acknowledging the judge for others. I think across the board, they should not be focusing on that judge but on their pattern. Whichever pattern they may be on. I do agree with not starting a run until the gate is closed. But that doesnt require fighting a horse to stand still to make that happen
The issue is what is controlled, if you can't stop your horse, you technically have no control. | |
| | |
Veteran
Posts: 287
| cheryl makofka - 2015-06-01 7:51 PM
wickedstepmother - 2015-06-01 9:41 PM
Also, I don't think it should be differeny for barrels then go back to acknowledging the judge for others. I think across the board, they should not be focusing on that judge but on their pattern. Whichever pattern they may be on. I do agree with not starting a run until the gate is closed. But that doesnt require fighting a horse to stand still to make that happen
The issue is what is controlled, if you can't stop your horse, you technically have no control.
While I agree with this wholeheartedly, and using my daughters as an example, can she....absolutly. Should she, I don't believe so. IMO, it's no different than asking a show jumper to stop and wait for the ok when they approach a jump. What eventually start happening, it'd start refusing jumps. You have now taught your horse a dangerous, undesirable habit. That's the best analogy I could think of, but you get the point. | |
| | |
 Expert
Posts: 1718
Location: Southeast Louisiana | wickedstepmother - 2015-06-01 10:14 PM
cheryl makofka - 2015-06-01 7:51 PM
wickedstepmother - 2015-06-01 9:41 PM
Also, I don't think it should be differeny for barrels then go back to acknowledging the judge for others. I think across the board, they should not be focusing on that judge but on their pattern. Whichever pattern they may be on. I do agree with not starting a run until the gate is closed. But that doesnt require fighting a horse to stand still to make that happen
The issue is what is controlled, if you can't stop your horse, you technically have no control.
While I agree with this wholeheartedly, and using my daughters as an example, can she....absolutly. Should she, I don't believe so. IMO, it's no different than asking a show jumper to stop and wait for the ok when they approach a jump. What eventually start happening, it'd start refusing jumps. You have now taught your horse a dangerous, undesirable habit. That's the best analogy I could think of, but you get the point.
I agree with you. The analogy I thought of was it's the equivalent of popping the gate on a race horse and expecting them to stand there until the judge decides they should run. If your horse is trained to run into the arena, it can be very stress inducing and confusing to ask them to stop when they have always been trained to go at that point. The rule should say something about a controlled, forward motion entry into the arena. The rule should probably be worded so timed event horses are not required to cease forward motion. They're effectively turning timed events into judged events. Reading this, it makes me wonder if this judge is one of those judged event people who just hate timed event people. It's like she is sending a message that, if your timed event horse can't act like a pleasure horse, you're not welcome at "her show". 4H is supposed to be for everyone. They are putting lots of kids, who only want to do timed events, into a situation where they would now have to purchase a separate horse just to do 4H. Timed events can be just as safe when horses are allowed to continue forward motion. The rule, as it is written, certainly opens the door for that type of discrimination against kids who choose to only do timed events. It's pretty common around horse shows, for big money judged event people to look down on kids who only want to do timed events. It sounds like that might be the case. After all, if you can bring a top notch aqha western pleasure horse there and enjoy the same rules as you work under at other shows, why shouldn't your kid be able to bring a winning nbha horse there and be subject to the same rules you run under anywhere else without feeling like the judge looks down on them. Good luck getting the rule changed. | |
| | |
  Northern Chocolate Queen
Posts: 16576
Location: ND | wickedstepmother - 2015-06-01 9:14 PM cheryl makofka - 2015-06-01 7:51 PM wickedstepmother - 2015-06-01 9:41 PM Also, I don't think it should be differeny for barrels then go back to acknowledging the judge for others. I think across the board, they should not be focusing on that judge but on their pattern. Whichever pattern they may be on. I do agree with not starting a run until the gate is closed. But that doesnt require fighting a horse to stand still to make that happen The issue is what is controlled, if you can't stop your horse, you technically have no control. While I agree with this wholeheartedly, and using my daughters as an example, can she....absolutly. Should she, I don't believe so. IMO, it's no different than asking a show jumper to stop and wait for the ok when they approach a jump. What eventually start happening, it'd start refusing jumps. You have now taught your horse a dangerous, undesirable habit. That's the best analogy I could think of, but you get the point.
Rope horses do this all the time & it does not ruin them, it's good for them. A properly trained rope horse knows how to "score". You set him up in the box just like you are going to make a run, nod for your steer, gate pops, steer leaves, horse stands quietly in the box. So if a rope horse can stand & watch his steer leave why can't a barrel horse stop for a second or two? There is absolutely no way this will ruin your horse if the horse is well trained & listens to his rider. | |
| | |
 Own It and Move On
Location: The edge of no where | I wouldn't run with those rules. I don't agree with asking a horse to pause in the alley, I see it creating bad habits and hesitation to move forward. Coming from the standpoint of having shown jumpers and barrel horses, they are NOT the same. JMO (and I've roped a lot), it's very different from scoring a horse in the box. It would be a dealbreaker for me. | |
| | |
 Experienced Mouse Trapper
Posts: 3106
Location: North Dakota | AND then don't send your kid to College! When I was college rodeoing, they had a "maintain forward motion" rule even in side gate pens. You were dinked or disqualified if you stopped or turned back away from the fence. It takes all kinds to make us into who we are! I hated that I couldn't turn my horse back, not so bad in middle gate arena's but those side arenas were tricky especially when I was running a lefty and the gate was on the right side of the arena. You just need to figure out what you're willing to put up with.... | |
| | |
Veteran
Posts: 287
| Nita - 2015-06-02 12:11 AM
wickedstepmother - 2015-06-01 10:14 PM
cheryl makofka - 2015-06-01 7:51 PM
wickedstepmother - 2015-06-01 9:41 PM
Also, I don't think it should be differeny for barrels then go back to acknowledging the judge for others. I think across the board, they should not be focusing on that judge but on their pattern. Whichever pattern they may be on. I do agree with not starting a run until the gate is closed. But that doesnt require fighting a horse to stand still to make that happen
The issue is what is controlled, if you can't stop your horse, you technically have no control.
While I agree with this wholeheartedly, and using my daughters as an example, can she....absolutly. Should she, I don't believe so. IMO, it's no different than asking a show jumper to stop and wait for the ok when they approach a jump. What eventually start happening, it'd start refusing jumps. You have now taught your horse a dangerous, undesirable habit. That's the best analogy I could think of, but you get the point.
I agree with you. The analogy I thought of was it's the equivalent of popping the gate on a race horse and expecting them to stand there until the judge decides they should run. If your horse is trained to run into the arena, it can be very stress inducing and confusing to ask them to stop when they have always been trained to go at that point. The rule should say something about a controlled, forward motion entry into the arena. The rule should probably be worded so timed event horses are not required to cease forward motion. They're effectively turning timed events into judged events. Reading this, it makes me wonder if this judge is one of those judged event people who just hate timed event people. It's like she is sending a message that, if your timed event horse can't act like a pleasure horse, you're not welcome at "her show". 4H is supposed to be for everyone. They are putting lots of kids, who only want to do timed events, into a situation where they would now have to purchase a separate horse just to do 4H. Timed events can be just as safe when horses are allowed to continue forward motion. The rule, as it is written, certainly opens the door for that type of discrimination against kids who choose to only do timed events. It's pretty common around horse shows, for big money judged event people to look down on kids who only want to do timed events. It sounds like that might be the case. After all, if you can bring a top notch aqha western pleasure horse there and enjoy the same rules as you work under at other shows, why shouldn't your kid be able to bring a winning nbha horse there and be subject to the same rules you run under anywhere else without feeling like the judge looks down on them. Good luck getting the rule changed.
THANK YOU THANK YOU Nita!! That is word for word exactly how I feel! Thank you for putting it a little better into words than I could cause I couldn't agree with you more! | |
| | |
 Not Afraid to Work
Posts: 4717
| We have similar rules like this in an open show circuit up here. The rule is "controlled" and they must break stride once they get in the arena.
As someone else mentioned, I think the rule is to cover their own a$$... not everyone can handle loping into the arena and it could create some danger in the warm-up and to spectators. From my understanding, 4H is a much more inexperienced group. Here anyway, many people lease horses and have never really ridden a lot before. This is all new so they have to account for these types of people and create an overall safe environment.
I think waiting for the judge to acknowledge is silly and overkill. That makes me believe, they want to make sure the judge is paying attention. I dont necessarily find it dangerous and dont think it would "ruin" a horse but I think the rule could be worded differently. | |
| | |
Own It and Move On
Location: The edge of no where | LMS - 2015-06-02 8:59 AM AND then don't send your kid to College! When I was college rodeoing, they had a "maintain forward motion" rule even in side gate pens. You were dinked or disqualified if you stopped or turned back away from the fence. It takes all kinds to make us into who we are! I hated that I couldn't turn my horse back, not so bad in middle gate arena's but those side arenas were tricky especially when I was running a lefty and the gate was on the right side of the arena. You just need to figure out what you're willing to put up with....
Exactly....it's pretty common for the bigger races to have rules about no stopping of forward motion, at the BBR it even applied to the alley. Your horse can't stop, circle or turn. Must maintain forward motion at all times. | |
| | |
 Accident Prone
Posts: 22277
Location: 100 miles from Nowhere, AR | LMS - 2015-06-02 8:59 AM AND then don't send your kid to College! When I was college rodeoing, they had a "maintain forward motion" rule even in side gate pens. You were dinked or disqualified if you stopped or turned back away from the fence. It takes all kinds to make us into who we are! I hated that I couldn't turn my horse back, not so bad in middle gate arena's but those side arenas were tricky especially when I was running a lefty and the gate was on the right side of the arena. You just need to figure out what you're willing to put up with....
I rodeoed in the Ozark region and we were allowed to come in and set up if it was a side gate. | |
| | |
 Elite Veteran
Posts: 623
Location: /ARKANSAS | A lot of my friends stand their horses in the alleyway they call it scoring? I think it is cruel and unnecessary.  ![]() | |
| | |
Elite Veteran
Posts: 623
Location: /ARKANSAS | A lot of my friends stand their horses in the alleyway they call it scoring? I think it is cruel and unnecessary. ![]() | |
| | |
The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| wickedstepmother - 2015-06-01 10:14 PM
cheryl makofka - 2015-06-01 7:51 PM
wickedstepmother - 2015-06-01 9:41 PM
Also, I don't think it should be differeny for barrels then go back to acknowledging the judge for others. I think across the board, they should not be focusing on that judge but on their pattern. Whichever pattern they may be on. I do agree with not starting a run until the gate is closed. But that doesnt require fighting a horse to stand still to make that happen
The issue is what is controlled, if you can't stop your horse, you technically have no control.
While I agree with this wholeheartedly, and using my daughters as an example, can she....absolutly. Should she, I don't believe so. IMO, it's no different than asking a show jumper to stop and wait for the ok when they approach a jump. What eventually start happening, it'd start refusing jumps. You have now taught your horse a dangerous, undesirable habit. That's the best analogy I could think of, but you get the point.
I have to disagree that stopping after entering an arena causes a behaviour issue.
If your horse is broke, you should be able to do this.
It isn't the same as show jumping, they enter the arena, sometimes loping, stop salute the judge then go.
Barrel racing, your kid should not be sending the horse in at full speed, then ripping their face off to get them to stop.
A kid should enter their horse at a controlled speed, whether it be a walk, jog, prance, then be able to stop it.
It is all on how the horse is trained, and how much effort you want to put into training, the horse I used in 4h years ago was a true 1d horse I could enter an arena and stop, or I could send him in an alley running.
It all comes down to the rider, and the horses training.
As others have said 4h was developed to increase a child's skills, in horse 4h it is to increase horsemanship and to develop safe riding skills.
It wasn't one person who determined what safe riding skills, it was a committee with guidance from lawyers, insurance agencies, etc. | |
| | |
 I Chore in Chucks
Posts: 2882
Location: MD | it's a rule.... maybe it doesn't work for you, but you should have known that from the get-go when you signed the entry form that says "I have read and understand all of the rules and terms."
build your own club and make all the ridiculous rules you want. | |
| | |
Veteran
Posts: 287
| Here's the deal, I don't like the rule and have my reasons why. I am a 4h leader and feel the appropriate thing to do is try and change it. I am going to keep my kids in 4H cause it has lots of benefits. But why do people think that we HAVE to accept rules the way they are in these types of deals? They have the form for me to fill out for a reason. Clearly I'm not the first person to appeal a 4h rule. A person has 2 options, don't participate which is fine, or make a change. I like rocking the boat and making a change. And like Nita said, these rules were made by show people and I think a barrel racer needs to give their input | |
| |
| |
Folks on-line