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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 670
    Location: Running my kids somewhere. | Bear - 2015-06-23 7:22 PM You really won't accomlish much by wrapping. The edema is temporary and cosmetic, more than anything. In fact, wrapping it could reduce the blood supply.....think about it. If the horse is sound, etc...., I think you will be fine. Personally, the best and least expensive way to deal with this is to keep the surface "debrided" of pus, dead tissue, etc.... That way the wound will shrink up/ contract and skin will grow over the top of the beefy red/pink base. Good old elbow grease works well. I'd scrub it with a soft bristle brush, soap, and water. Surgical soap (ie: hibiclens or betadine) works well, but just about any soap will work. Antibiotics probably won't help....not even topical antibiotics. Hose the hell out of it....hydrotherapy. If you want to spray on some topical antiseptic, fine, but it really doesn't matter that much. I'd say do this a minimum of twice a day, but more is better. You will start to see that pink granulation tissue get beefier and red. That's good. If you keep this up you will see the rate of healing progress more rapidly. A lot of people swear by a lot of products for wounds, but honestly there's no substitute for elbow grease and a lot of water. The underwoods, vetericyn, etc.... Is fine, but definitely not mandatory, IMO. Good luck! You'll do fine.
I think Bear said it the best. That is the route I would take. Best of luck. | |
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 Born not Made
Posts: 2931
       Location: North Dakota | Quote " Bear - 2015-06-23 7:22 PM You really won't accomlish much by wrapping. The edema is temporary and cosmetic, more than anything. In fact, wrapping it could reduce the blood supply.....think about it. If the horse is sound, etc...., I think you will be fine. Personally, the best and least expensive way to deal with this is to keep the surface "debrided" of pus, dead tissue, etc.... That way the wound will shrink up/ contract and skin will grow over the top of the beefy red/pink base. Good old elbow grease works well. I'd scrub it with a soft bristle brush, soap, and water. Surgical soap (ie: hibiclens or betadine) works well, but just about any soap will work. Antibiotics probably won't help....not even topical antibiotics. Hose the hell out of it....hydrotherapy. If you want to spray on some topical antiseptic, fine, but it really doesn't matter that much. I'd say do this a minimum of twice a day, but more is better. You will start to see that pink granulation tissue get beefier and red. That's good. If you keep this up you will see the rate of healing progress more rapidly. A lot of people swear by a lot of products for wounds, but honestly there's no substitute for elbow grease and a lot of water. The underwoods, vetericyn, etc.... Is fine, but definitely not mandatory, IMO. Good luck! You'll do fine. " Quote
I'll be the odd-ball and disagree with the parts I have highlighted.
Many people have an issue with proud flesh when dealing with wounds like these. And the exact thing that will cause the proud flesh to proliferate even more is manual scrubbing of any kind. Once granulation tissue starts to form (which yours already has) you do NOT want to scrub the would or directly cold hose it (running water over the wound will also stimulate proud flesh growth).
You do want to keep the wound clean but really do the bare minimum you need to do. Clean it if you need to, but do not over-do it. You can wrap it if you want to, to help keep it clean but you don't have to. Plus it is always tricky to get a knee bandage to stay up.
For my horse's injury a couple years ago, it actually started to heal so much faster when I WAS able to get a bandage to finally stay up. This picture was from day 17 and I was still having trouble perfecting my wrapping skill and getting the darn thing to stay on. Granted, it was the middle of winter and we had a very cold one that particular year, but by vet advised me to do NO washing or stimulation (scrubbing) of the wound, or as little as possible.

After I was finally able to get a bandage to stay on for 3 days at a time (and then I would change it), I really started to see progress.
Once I stopped wrapping it, I started using PF Wonder Salve. I have no experience with Underwoods, but I have heard good things about it as others are suggesting.
While I was bandaging my horse, I used silver sulfadiazine. When I started to get a little too much growth (proud flesh!) I kind of rotated between ProudsOff and plain ol' hydrocortisone cream (less noxious than ProudsOff).
This was 188 days after the initial injury. It did continue to heal a little more but he does have a scar remaining.

But the point of my long, long post is NOT to scrub the wound, once granulation tissue has formed. You'll make the proud flesh grow that much faster.
For a fresh wound, do all the cold hosing and scrubbing you want. But not once the granulation tissue has formed.
Edited by r_beau 2015-06-24 11:19 AM
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 BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25351
          Location: Bastrop, Texas | I suppose I've had the typical amount of experience with wounds like this as anyone else, but what helps me is my understanding of the basic science of wound healing, after 35 years of experience with difficult wounds in humans, plus a pretty good background in immunology. There are all sorts of regimens and routines out there for dealing with wounds in horses, and the one thing they tend to have in common is the seemingly miraculous way they tend to heal, regardless of what you do. In some cases, it's because the treatment was masterful, while in others they healed in spite of what was done. There's always a tendency, I think, for people to make the management of these wounds more complicated than they need to be. "Proud flesh" is granulation tissue, which is vascularized fibrotic tissue that is poorly organized, but vital to the healing process, because it becomes more organized, histologically, over time. Scrubbing a wound does not mysteriously "stimulate" ugly proud flesh, actually. That's a myth. What it does do is accelerate healing by reducing the anmount of dead flesh and debris and bacteria. In fact, what actually happens in instances of proud flesh is that accelerated healing causes the granulation tissue to grow over the skin edges, and that in itself can impede the in growth of skin, which normally heals at a rate of approximately 1 mm a day. When the edges hit that "wall" of proud flesh, the rate of healing slows, while the "cauliflower" of granulation tissue piles up. The way you get around this is to either scrub the granulation tissue to keep it level, or excise it at the skin level. Granulation tissue can actually sometimes scooped away with a spoon, or you can do it sharply. The goal is to preserve that vascularized bed, while allowing the skin to grow over it. Granulation tissue is not innervated....they can't feel you scraping it away. Handling, scrubbing, and hosing the wound desensitizes the horse. At least that's been my experience. After a while, they pretty much treat you like a farrier. When you do debridement, the granulation tissue bleeds, sometimes a fair amount. Pressure for a few minutes, plus more hosing, will cause that to stop. That bleeding is a good sign. The reason people have problems with persistent proud flesh is because they just let it continue to build up.......trim it to skin level and you won't have this problem. There's no mystery here. Pressure with wrapping, etc, actually hinders oxygen supply to the wound. You can do it in situations where the wound gets very heavily contaminated, but just keep that in mind.
Many "treatments" applied to these wounds actually kill normal healthy tissue because the acids and chemicals are toxic. You can try it, but just keep it in mind. They are not as effective as debridement.....elbow grease. Some people use steroids.....I don't think that's a good idea either, because steroids impair healing and actually cause skin atrophy. You want the new skin to be healthy....not atrophied.
As to the issue of water.....the more the better. The notion of cold water or warm water somehow magically "stimulating" proud flesh in a bad way is a myth. Just keep the granulating bed at skin level so you don't get the cauliflower effect.
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 Veteran
Posts: 256
   
| Thank you everyone for the replies. I do not have any Underwoods on hand... I always say I'm going to get some but I didn't do that in time. What I was worried about most is the "proud flesh" so thank you Bear for your knowledge. You are saying to just scrape or trim the granulated tissue away if it starts to protrude the edges of the wound? I have been washing it twice a day with iodine but I didn't know how aggressive to be with the hosing. By the sounds of it I can't do too much as far as the water and scrubbing? I haven't been applying anything topical. My vet did prescribe antibiotics at the beginning so I have stayed away from all the creams, etc. Thanks again for everyones opinions. | |
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 Shelter Dog Lover
Posts: 10277
      
| My gelding had a deep cut on a joint and it would not hold stitches either, each step opened it back up. After 2 months with one vet and not getting any healing I went to another who immediately had a brace made that was welded to his shoe, ran up the sides of his leg and immobilized the joint. He could walk with it but not use that joint- he healed in 2 weeks. Something to think about if he keeps opening it up. Good Luck | |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 629
  
| Medi-honey. | |
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| Bear - 2015-06-24 2:30 PM I suppose I've had the typical amount of experience with wounds like this as anyone else, but what helps me is my understanding of the basic science of wound healing, after 35 years of experience with difficult wounds in humans, plus a pretty good background in immunology. There are all sorts of regimens and routines out there for dealing with wounds in horses, and the one thing they tend to have in common is the seemingly miraculous way they tend to heal, regardless of what you do. In some cases, it's because the treatment was masterful, while in others they healed in spite of what was done. There's always a tendency, I think, for people to make the management of these wounds more complicated than they need to be. "Proud flesh" is granulation tissue, which is vascularized fibrotic tissue that is poorly organized, but vital to the healing process, because it becomes more organized, histologically, over time. Scrubbing a wound does not mysteriously "stimulate" ugly proud flesh, actually. That's a myth. What it does do is accelerate healing by reducing the anmount of dead flesh and debris and bacteria. In fact, what actually happens in instances of proud flesh is that accelerated healing causes the granulation tissue to grow over the skin edges, and that in itself can impede the in growth of skin, which normally heals at a rate of approximately 1 mm a day. When the edges hit that "wall" of proud flesh, the rate of healing slows, while the "cauliflower" of granulation tissue piles up. The way you get around this is to either scrub the granulation tissue to keep it level, or excise it at the skin level. Granulation tissue can actually sometimes scooped away with a spoon, or you can do it sharply. The goal is to preserve that vascularized bed, while allowing the skin to grow over it. Granulation tissue is not innervated....they can't feel you scraping it away. Handling, scrubbing, and hosing the wound desensitizes the horse. At least that's been my experience. After a while, they pretty much treat you like a farrier. When you do debridement, the granulation tissue bleeds, sometimes a fair amount. Pressure for a few minutes, plus more hosing, will cause that to stop. That bleeding is a good sign. The reason people have problems with persistent proud flesh is because they just let it continue to build up.......trim it to skin level and you won't have this problem. There's no mystery here. Pressure with wrapping, etc, actually hinders oxygen supply to the wound. You can do it in situations where the wound gets very heavily contaminated, but just keep that in mind. Many "treatments" applied to these wounds actually kill normal healthy tissue because the acids and chemicals are toxic. You can try it, but just keep it in mind. They are not as effective as debridement.....elbow grease. Some people use steroids.....I don't think that's a good idea either, because steroids impair healing and actually cause skin atrophy. You want the new skin to be healthy....not atrophied. As to the issue of water.....the more the better. The notion of cold water or warm water somehow magically "stimulating" proud flesh in a bad way is a myth. Just keep the granulating bed at skin level so you don't get the cauliflower effect.
Years ago, I had a mare with a horrible neck injury. It took so much patience NOT to do much to it as the vet was instructing me to do. What he did have me do was hose it and then spray it with Granulex, which I did...seemed to take forever but she healed without so much as a tiny scar...that from a huge and very ugly laceration. The Granulex did exactly what Bear is talking about...removes the necrotic tissue and keeps the environment good for healthy tissue to heal in the area without leaving a big ugly proud flesh type of healing. You literally would never of known this mare had had an injury. | |
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 BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25351
          Location: Bastrop, Texas | Yes, ironically, sometimes you can care for a wound so well that the granulation tissue grows so fast that it mushrooms up over the advancing skin edge.....like cauliflower. Then the skin has nowhere to go...it hits that wall, so to speak. You don't have to debride every day...just often enough so that the granulating bed is nice and level with the skin. When you have that, the skin will advance rapidly. You might only need to debride sharply once a month. If it bleeds a lot just hose it real well and wrap it for a few minutes. A little oozing doesn't hurt.
As for those granules, yes we do sometimes use them in human wounds....especially ones that are like a divot or hole. They just draw out the serum and pus like a wick....they aren't toxic to tissue.
Another suggestion to the OP. I'd remove those purple sutures that are dangling in there. That foreign body just makes matters worse. Those look like absorbable sutures, but they take a long time to absorb. Just pull them out.
Edited by Bear 2015-06-24 9:00 PM
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Member
Posts: 28

| Underwoods and baking powder. | |
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Veteran
Posts: 216
  Location: In between 4 ridges | Vetricyn! | |
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 Famous for Not Complaining
Posts: 8848
        Location: Broxton, Ga | Pickling lime..........I have the best results with that........amazing how it heals and stops proud flesh | |
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 Expert
Posts: 1857
      
| Water, surgical wash and a wash cloth!! This year I started using GenOne spray but the down side is that it has a steroid in it, which slows the growth of the granulated tissue(helped with excess "proud flesh"), and the wound took longer to heal, but it healed beautifully. Water, soap, and a wash cloth did amazing on it. Just scrub hard enough that the yellow layers of tissue will peel and the underneath is pink. I would stop scrubbing once I saw the pink. I would also peel off all the scabs on the edges(soak first so they don't pull off good tissue with it). Anything below the elbow, this is how I treat it. | |
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 Expert
Posts: 1611
   Location: bring on the heat, NV | Dealing with the same kind of wound. Whats worked for me is vetricyn gel sprayed liberally and wonder dust applied on top. I tryed iodine mixed with water to clean but holy smokes the proud flesh went wild so just plain water to keep any drips from scalding the skin. I alternate wrapping one day and airing out for a few days ( i added more days airing out as it healed). Its pretty much healed up just a 1/4 to go. Vetricyn gel and wonder dust or swat if you have to many flys. Ill wrap to debride without the scrubbing. Like a bandaid peel off apply goo let air. Pretty simple very effective. | |
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 Expert
Posts: 1857
      
| I feel like wounds have to get really ugly before they get any better... Seems by the end of the first week it looks horrible and I start to second guess myself but by the end of the second week it starts to come back around. Not sure if it's the tissue dying off that first week but goodness, they can look horrible that first and second week! | |
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