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  Keeper of the King Snake
Posts: 7622
   
Location: Dubach, LA | Okay, hardhead. LOL. Keep her for a riding horse but give up on barrels. |
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 Accident Prone
Posts: 22277
Location: 100 miles from Nowhere, AR | What I see is when she gets anxious, you get hard and she gets harder. She won't ever learn to relax and come back to you unless you learn to be softer when she gets upset and wants to run off. You're also not preparing her ahead of time for the turn and she needs it when she's rolling. Stay soft yourself, set her up before you get there, don't worry about speed for a while, concentrate on her coming back to you softly in a competition atmosphere.
If I were you, I would find a good trainer and take some lessons. This is a simple thing to fix, but not an easy one because it's human nature to stiffen up and pull harder when you feel out of control, and horsey nature to get scared and push harder when they're being trapped. |
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Expert
Posts: 4766
Location: Bandera, TX | Your going to have a good horse there...It's all about controlling her speed. Set up some drills and only do them at the speed that the mare is allowing you to control her with finger tip pressure. Have you done transitions from a posting trot by any chance? If so please try to do them from a standing trot. Have you anyone in the area that you can do several series of magna wave or P3 treatments? I highly recommend them for a horse that is bracing like I'm seeing in her. Once she is supple in her muscles she should be able to respond with the proper muscle memory that you've instilled in your slow work. Has she ever tied up? If so have your vet check a serum magnesium level if she is moderate to low I would give her some magnesium supplements.
You were told by someone else about Uncle Ed, give him a try. He craves helping a horse and rider that have as much try as this mare is giving and what your seeming to want. If you can't get with him call Jacque Woolman she's had much success helping others on those rocket horses.
It looks to me that your wanting to go fast, have you sacrificed several runs to try to go as controlled as possible and seen where that times gets you?
I love fast horses and the horse I'm starting now I probably won't kick him till he's in his sophomore year of running barrels. Horses that want to run like yours need to have lots of rate and control must be maintained. As soon as your feeling out of control set her down gain control at a speed that feels like you can control her with finger tip pressure and resume that pattern.
The other thing I would check on her is for bleeding. You can have her scoped for blood in the airways up to a day later by most vets after a run. I've had several horses that raise their BP and start the run hard and fast and essentially bleed by the time their at barrel 2. If thats the case per your vet ask him/her about meds that can help drop the BP. PM me for a warm up routine that has worked for me on horses that bleed under those occurances.
You've got a really nice mare there. Try to back the pressure off and work for smooth and pretty runs. Those runs will land you in some 2D $ after 6 months of controlled runs you should be ready to allow her to pick up some speed and I bet just by assuming the go position she will kick up the gears.
Smooth IS FAST
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| Just to comment on the soreness.
Hock injections are not a one time thing, some horses need them every 2-3 months.
Did you ever xray the hocks, if not this is where you should have started instead of injecting.
Also some vets will inject cortisone or a derritive into the joint which will reduce inflammation short term, but long term will erode cartilage at a greater speed then natural.
Even if a horse isn't running barrels, if time has elapsed between injections there is a chance the horse is sore. |
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Expert
Posts: 4766
Location: Bandera, TX | cheryl makofka - 2015-07-05 9:34 AM Just to comment on the soreness. Hock injections are not a one time thing, some horses need them every 2-3 months. Did you ever xray the hocks, if not this is where you should have started instead of injecting. Also some vets will inject cortisone or a derritive into the joint which will reduce inflammation short term, but long term will erode cartilage at a greater speed then natural. Even if a horse isn't running barrels, if time has elapsed between injections there is a chance the horse is sore.
I've found this advice spot on in some colts. I would again highly recommend the magna wave or if you have a friend with a shock wave to use it on your horses hocks. Get the xrays so you know with what your dealing with! |
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 To the Left
Posts: 1865
Location: Florida | I have bought blown up horses and that mare is not blown. She just needs more help. The bit doesn't matter, the rider does. Find someone to help you, someone with real experience and credentials.
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 Owner of a ratting catting machine
Posts: 2258
| Vickie - 2015-07-05 10:27 AM
I have bought blown up horses and that mare is not blown. She just needs more help. The bit doesn't matter, the rider does. Find someone to help you, someone with real experience and credentials.
I absolutely, completely, totally agree. |
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 Take a Picture
Posts: 12841
| CanCan - 2015-07-05 9:10 AM
Okay, hardhead. LOL. Keep her for a riding horse but give up on barrels.
A thought the title said she was desperate??? All that I am going to say that if a horse has a good foundation on them they have that foundation at any speed. This horse is probably not sore you are just running her way faster than she is ready to run. If you enjoy riding the horse keep her as a trail horse where you can do what both you you enjoy. This is the perfect reason why you do not borrow money to buy a horse.
I have to agree with cancan |
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Expert
Posts: 1561
| CanCan - 2015-07-05 9:10 AM
Okay, hardhead. LOL. Keep her for a riding horse but give up on barrels.
This is sound advice...QUIT, all the greats in any sport got their break by being a quitter.  |
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 Independent Cuss
Posts: 3978
Location: Dearing, GA | I agree with all those who said to get her off the pattern and start over with the basics. If y'all don't do rollbacks, I would work on rollbacks to get her used to sitting on her butt. Don't overdo those, because they can make a hot horse even hotter.
I would also put her in a really light broken bit with just a little bit of lift on it. Something light and easy- y'all need to open up that line of communication and really get her off of depending on your pulling to slow down and guide her. Changing her bit is NOT going to fix the problem that you have.
Also, it looks like your first barrel has consistently stayed the same. I didn't see your body ask her to slow down at all. Over exaggerate to the point of feeling ridiculous at a walk and a trot. She looks like a real free runner so you're going to have to give her plenty of time to think about slowing down, before you get to your turning point.
Look up Dena Kirkpatrick. She's got some great exercises. Molli Montgomery also wrote an excellent article about hot horses. |
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 Veteran
Posts: 227
Location: Soon to be outta here:) | Thank you everyone for the advice!! This mare has come leaps and bounds since I bought her, but clearly we still have a very long way to go. I do love the mare and I could retire her to a trail horse I guess, but she honestly loves her job. She wants to work and she wants to run. And I think that's what I love so much about her. She wants it. Some horses you go to work and you can tell their heart just isn't in it, hers always is. If barrels are set up in an arena she wants to go work a pattern. I just don't do her justice. Thanks for all the suggestions for clinics and people to look up for help! I have tried to get local help, but it hasn't done much in the way of our pattern. Getting her more broke yes, but no one has really helped me apply that to our pattern. I'm really thinking based on what everyone is saying I play a much bigger role with me riding than I previously thought, which makes me happy because I know I can work hard and teach myself to ride her. I'm 100% willing to do that! I can work on rate with her, she does know how to do rollbacks as someone suggested but I don't really do them often. I have a huge selection of bits, I ride her in a snaffle or a draw bit at home, I'm sure I could find something that's pretty light with a little bit of lift!
As for not pushing her, every single video is me praying to god she goes slower lol. I don't care at all if we run a 4d time but have nice barrels. When I let her pick her speed, the speed she's going is her pick. If I ever do push it's a few kicks here or there lol. When she goes to take off to run it's literally 0 to mock 90. I'm for sure not asking her for the speed or pushing her lol.
As for the injections, I have X-rays that were taken right before she had her hocks injected. They were perfectly clean and looked good. The only reason I actually injected her hocks was because she went and was on a theraplate for 2 weeks, when I took her to a vet for a lameness exam she failed the flexion test on both hocks. After a week home not being on that plate she went back to the same vet and she didn't flex off at all. I took her to another well known vet for a second opinion, and that was when they took X-rays, which were clean, and she didn't flex off at all. She also went to a vet in Oklahoma and she didn't flex off. However we did inject them because she was so off the first time I had her flexed. The vet for sure didn't use cortisone, I had the option of the cortisone or the other mix of stuff and I didn't get the cortisone.
I guess she very well could be sore, but she has already had so much time off and I've treated her for so many things that I'm not sure if there's honestly anything else I could do for her to make her not sore.
I really appreciate everyone's advice, I get a little worried that she's never going to make it as a barrel horse, it's really nice to hear that she is a nice horse! I would waaaay rather have me be the problem because I know I'm willing to fix it and work at it lol.
Thank you again! |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 499
Location: ARKANSAS | Try the Excercise i explained earlier in my post for a month....till BOTH of you can do this in a RELAXED fashion at home, then take her to a show and exhibition ONLY so you can still stay relaxed go slow..this may take several times...she will eventually LEARN she does not have to overly excited when it is time to run..she is getting overly excited in her runs and that is why she is not rating or listening to your cues....you have to back to BASICS and teach these things to her...good luck
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Veteran
Posts: 276
| IMO you are going to have to do something to get her head down when she runs. Carrying her head up and pushing her jaw out leaves you with no control no matter what bit or how you ride her, you are not going to be able to move her shoulders, ribcage to set her for a turn, or ask for any rate. I'm not saying that you should slap a tie-down on her and make a run, no (although I am a fan of running in a loose leather tie-down) but the fact that you say she braces on one to the point of coming to a stop gives me even more reason to believe this is your biggest problem. When you slow work her or even ride her in the pasture, can you get her to move laterally each direction using mostly your feet (very little from your hands) without her picking up speed or throwing up her head? That is something that needs to be mastered, then at a trot, at a lope, and eventually a run. You need to be able to pick her inside rein, shoulders, and ribs up at anytime in order to set her for a turn, even if she is at a full out run without any fight. I have found that if you can get a horse shaped correctly for a turn, with their nose, shoulder, ribs in place and their butt up under them, the rate will come naturally. |
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 Experienced Mouse Trapper
Posts: 3106
Location: North Dakota | You need to sit your arse DOWN in that saddle and if you can't do that find a saddle that helps you do that. Find a rate point SIT and ask for the turn....find something (even if it's a looong tie down or bonnet) and get that nose out of the air-maybe even a combo bit. You need more poll control try riding her in a goostree simplicity and add the chin chain for whoa-then maybe you can move up to the double gag. The simplicity will help get her head down and flex the loin. Most of her trouble IS you so work on you. Horse can't run fast if rider isn't riding smart. You need to think more whoa and less go. |
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Veteran
Posts: 227
Location: Soon to be outta here:) | When I first bought her I couldn't put a leg on her without her literally trying to take off. Now if I go nice and slow I can move her with my legs. Sometimes if I pick up on her she will put her was up and try to speed up, but 80% of the time she's really good. We do still need a lot of work on that though because that needs to be at 110%. If I run her right and actually ask her to move over she will pick up for a barrel. Sometimes I just panic and sit there and then she doesn't pick up because I'm not asking her too. But again that's all my fault, not hers.
As for keeping her head down, I do have a bonnet I could try on her! I could try a looser tie down again, I just worry that if I rely on things like the martingale or the bonnet or a tie down I won't ever be able to run without one. That has always been her problem, getting we head up. Some horses are naturally higher headed but she does it toget away from pressure. We have worked very hard to get her to not do that off barrels and she has improved a ton, but especially on big patterns she puts it up and even if I were to ride her correct I'm not sure that I would have a ton of control haha.
She could be putting her head up because I'm in her face too much though, I could see that being a huge part of the problem. I don't want her to go mock 90 all the time, but instead of really sitting down I snatch at her face or sit and hold on it. That could very much be why she puts it up so far. |
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Experienced Mouse Trapper
Posts: 3106
Location: North Dakota | ^ yes she's learning that when you snatch her face she puts it in the air and you're out of the game! Try the simplicity....in my hands it brings their head back down and is pretty forgiving even if you get too heavy on them. So ask yourself if she hits the end of the tie down and stops isn't that a fair trade off of putting her head up and running off?? I rather have one that stops and questions why they were reprimanded than running away..... |
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Veteran
Posts: 227
Location: Soon to be outta here:) | I will see if I can get my hands on a simplicity! Would it be something I would just work her in or run in? And that is very true. She works pretty good in a German I just don't really like running in one! I can always try a tie down again, worst thing that happens is she hits it like she did and stops lol |
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Experienced Mouse Trapper
Posts: 3106
Location: North Dakota | I run them in a simplicity-if the horse is broke its more than enough. As far as the tie down (or bonnet etc) goes she probabaly should be rode in it all the time......if its a tool make sure its being used consistantly so theres no surpises, especially if that is her reaction....and she probably should slow down some....that's the point of this post right?? to gain more control?? That means putting her brain back between your hands-literally and figuratively. Why won't you run in the martingale if you like how she rides in it at home-she obviously needs it so use it! |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 876
Location: Wisconsin | There are some gosh darn GOOD trainers and clinicians that attend those B Tuff races in Winona. I would really think about trying to contact some of them and take lessons. |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 489
| ladyelbert - 2015-07-06 8:50 AM
Try the Excercise i explained earlier in my post for a month....till BOTH of you can do this in a RELAXED fashion at home, then take her to a show and exhibition ONLY so you can still stay relaxed go slow..this may take several times...she will eventually LEARN she does not have to overly excited when it is time to run..she is getting overly excited in her runs and that is why she is not rating or listening to your cues....you have to back to BASICS and teach these things to her...good luck
The voice of reason has been in Ladyelbert's posts.
First - I love the way your mare looks like she can move. I see why you want to keep trying with her.
Second - kudos to you for trying to fix the problems. You obviously have been trying to make sure she is not sore. Maybe there is something the vets have missed, or maybe the timing between injections is off, or whatever - but obviously you are trying to make sure she is pain free. It also sounds like you are trying to get her better broke and you are looking to get help with that. You are trying. You are not sticking your head in the sand about what is going on. And you are taking responsibility for your role as a rider.
Now.....the "pat you on the back" portion of my reply is over......People that know me well know I'm a blunt speaker. I never want to hurt someone's feelings. I'll never say a word until I'm asked. Someone can live their life or ride their horse however they see fit -I could care less. But when asked - I'll say what I honestly think. So you asked.....
Third - You are wasting your money. If this is the way you ride and the way your mare works every time you enter a barrel race - things will never magically change. The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result each time. Something has to change for progress to happen. Some people have mentioned Ed Wright. I love him, and how he looks at training a horse. I was at one of his clinics and a girl had a horse with a very sore back. Ed showed her how her old wore-out saddle pad was compounding the problem of a slightly poor fitting saddle. He thought a new pad would make a lot of difference - she might not have to get a new saddle. Her response was "If I buy a new pad, I wont be able to afford to go to a show this week" Ed's response was to not to expect her horse to ever do any good if she wasn't willing to change what was causing the problem.
Do you exhibition this mare? Can you walk or trot a barrel race at a show? If not, start there. Forget about competing. Use that money for QUIET exhibitions. So what if it takes a YEAR? You were already throwing money down the dark hole we call barrel racing. Why not work toward something that might eventually give you a return on your investment? It's not fun, it's not glamorous - but all you are doing now is teaching her how NOT to properly run a barrel race.
Is she one that will let you do all the slow work you want before a show or during an exhibition - but then loose her brain when you enter? Then enter - and TROT!!!!! Tell the ones that fuss at you about it to go suck your big toe! You are working toward a horse that could outrun their butt 10 times in a row...not just once in a blue moon! Try it. Enter and tell yourself "we are only going to trot". Does she pick up on the body language and settle down? Then maybe, she is getting a lot of "go" from you. You may have to do a lot of slow work at shows to get you both on the same page. Slow and correct. Slow and correct. Slow and correct. DON'T SKIP STEPS! Add speed in 1 MPH increments. After 5 years, let her lope one and see where you are. (yes - that was a smarta$$ comment) but the point is that a few slow works will not fix the problems. Be prepared to invest the time.....or if you don't want to do that...just give up now and save yourself the headache.
Fourth - When you do want to give up...send her my way. I'm not saying I can fix her. There may be things going on between her ears that us computer jockey's can't comprehend. But I'd trade you my husband to try her! |
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