TrailGirl - 2015-07-16 10:35 AM

Sorry....I certainly do not see her callous nature as "irrelevant".

oija - 2015-07-16 10:52 AM


I didn't say what many will see as callousness as irrelevant. I said her meal was.

horsesinharleton - 2015-07-16 11:01 AM


I don't care if she was sitting down for a meal, what she was eating or drinking, or if she was on a casual trail ride... it was WHAT she said that is the issue with me!!

oija - 2015-07-16 11:03 AM


Which is what I was asking people to focus on. Look at the first page and the number of comments on her meal though.

oija - 2015-07-16 11:03 AM


Which is what I was asking people to focus on. Look at the first page and the number of comments on her meal though.

oija - 2015-07-16 10:31 AM

To get away, just a minute, from the overly emotional appeals and prevent a different perspective. This may have been a poor venue choice or not. Most people are more relaxed over a meal. Plenty of pro lifers like to eat salads and drink wine too. Her meal choices have NOTHING to do with this issue. Many of us watch starving children eat on television or watch people eat on sitcoms and somehow this is not disgusting. If this bothers you, it bothers you that someone who is opposed to your point of view treats it more casually or views the life of a child as valuable for other reasons, like saving the life of a child that has already been born, than what you personally think. You would find the topic disgusting no matter what. You just find it disturbing that she can treat it casually enough that she can discuss it while she eats. What she is eating and honestly the fact that she is eating is IRRELEVANT. Many medical professionals, my mother included as she is a nurse, have strong stomachs and can discuss topics over lunch that might turn many of our stomachs. If you want to discuss the issue, then discuss the issue, not her meal.

That being said. The parents with the premature baby born at 28 weeks that they have prayed and wished for may truly appreciate the fact that these organs are there in the first place to save their son or daughter. A life may be lost and another one saved.

Please just remember these points when you are discussing the issue.

Personally I'm not a fan of abortions. I'm a huge major fan of family planning and handing out condoms like its going out of style. But when we discuss these issues we do a disservice not to consider all sides of the issue with some logic, not just emotion, and to separate out the irrelevant bits. We do not want to be like politicians, throwing out red herrings to distract from the central issue. Frankly a video of heart surgery or a heart transplant, especially from a beating heart cadaver, is also disturbing to many people but it saves lives.

Be against this issue because you hate to see a life, any life, cut short. Don't be against it because the doctor is eating and the procedure is hard to look at.

TrailGirl - 2015-07-16 11:24 AM


The fact that she is talking about this casually over a meal IS relevant. It speaks to her absolute comfort with the topic. While a heart transplant surgeon may be comfortable discussing his work over dinner...that is completely different. It's not just her comfort level with the blood/organs/tissues itself (I get that as I can discuss veterinary procedures all day eating a hamburger)...it's the fact that unlike the heart surgeon who is performing a life saving procedure...she is discussing the best means to kill an infant in order to keep it's parts useful for sale. See the difference? See why context matters?

Bear - 2015-07-16 11:55 AM


Handing out condoms is a cheap ploy....a ruse. Condoms are cheap.....go out and buy your own condoms. They hand out condoms so people can talk about how wonderful they are. It's a marketing tool. For that matter, I think birth control, in general, ought to be the responsibility of those who decide they need it. Why should hard working taxpayers be expected to provide free birth control? That money would be much better spent educating idiots on basic communication skills like grammar and spelling, because it would benefit society in general. If someone decides they want to have an abortion, that is their right. They are the ones who will have to live with it. They should also be fully aware that they are terminating life. They should be aware that those unborn babies can perceive pain much earlier than once thought. They should also be aware of how abortions are performed, particularly late term abortions. They need to know that the baby squirms and writhes as the baby is crushed, dismembered, mascerated, and pithed. They need to realize that there's a significant chance they will have to deal with the psychological after effects, possibly for a very long time.

What I found to be most disturbing about this video was how the woman callously described the gruesome technical details while eating. If you don't find that at least a little disturbing, then I have to wonder about you.
For 18 years, as part of a transplant team, I participated in organ procurement on organ donors. Even though their hearts were beating and they looked very much alive, they were brain dead. Without fail, the procedure was conducted as a very solemn procedure. Our behavior and conduct in that operating room was dignified and everyone felt gratified that some family was willing to donate the organs of a loved one. It really is a sight to behold, and nothing illustrates the better angels of our nature, as human beings. Deep inside, in a certain way, we also viewed it as a joyous occasion, because we knew the organs we harvested could save countless lives. The family also found consolation in knowing that their loved one was a hero in death to many people. That provided lasting comfort to them, in an otherwise very sad day. This is why I was appalled with the woman in the video. We conducted ourselves with dignity and respect. We didn't play our usual music, and nobody told jokes. We behaved as if we were under the watchful eye of that donor's family. I'll never forget the imagery of a 12 year old boy who was a donor. As I finished removing his heart, I looked over the drapes at his face, and over at his arm on the IV board. He had fallen out of a treehouse earlier that day. He still had Popsicle stains around his pink lips. He had a bandaid on his hand from a scrape he sustained probably several days earlier. He still had a washable bubblegum tattoo of a cartoon figure on his forearm. He was someone's pride and joy and very much loved. I later met the family and witnessed their joy and sadness at the same time, something a person can find hard to comprehend......until it happens to them.
I would never ever allow a doctor this cold and calloused in my operating room. She wouldn't understand.....she wouldn't fit in.

oija - 2015-07-16 12:35 PM.... We should not dehumanize her and talk about her like she is an animal at a trough with no human feeling anymore than she should appear to dehumanize the lives of the children that are lost through abortion.

oija - 2015-07-16 10:31 AM That being said. The parents with the premature baby born at 28 weeks that they have prayed and wished for may truly appreciate the fact that these organs are there in the first place to save their son or daughter.

TXBO - 2015-07-16 1:45 PM Anyone that treats the body parts of a living human being, at any age, as a comodity is an animal. 

Bear - 2015-07-16 11:55 AM Handing out condoms is a cheap ploy....a ruse. Condoms are cheap.....go out and buy your own condoms. They hand out condoms so people can talk about how wonderful they are. It's a marketing tool. For that matter, I think birth control, in general, ought to be the responsibility of those who decide they need it. Why should hard working taxpayers be expected to provide free birth control? That money would be much better spent educating idiots on basic communication skills like grammar and spelling, because it would benefit society in general. If someone decides they want to have an abortion, that is their right. They are the ones who will have to live with it. They should also be fully aware that they are terminating life. They should be aware that those unborn babies can perceive pain much earlier than once thought. They should also be aware of how abortions are performed, particularly late term abortions. They need to know that the baby squirms and writhes as the baby is crushed, dismembered, mascerated, and pithed. They need to realize that there's a significant chance they will have to deal with the psychological after effects, possibly for a very long time. What I found to be most disturbing about this video was how the woman callously described the gruesome technical details while eating. If you don't find that at least a little disturbing, then I have to wonder about you. For 18 years, as part of a transplant team, I participated in organ procurement on organ donors. Even though their hearts were beating and they looked very much alive, they were brain dead. Without fail, the procedure was conducted as a very solemn procedure. Our behavior and conduct in that operating room was dignified and everyone felt gratified that some family was willing to donate the organs of a loved one. It really is a sight to behold, and nothing illustrates the better angels of our nature, as human beings. Deep inside, in a certain way, we also viewed it as a joyous occasion, because we knew the organs we harvested could save countless lives. The family also found consolation in knowing that their loved one was a hero in death to many people. That provided lasting comfort to them, in an otherwise very sad day. This is why I was appalled with the woman in the video. We conducted ourselves with dignity and respect. We didn't play our usual music, and nobody told jokes. We behaved as if we were under the watchful eye of that donor's family. I'll never forget the imagery of a 12 year old boy who was a donor. As I finished removing his heart, I looked over the drapes at his face, and over at his arm on the IV board. He had fallen out of a treehouse earlier that day. He still had Popsicle stains around his pink lips. He had a bandaid on his hand from a scrape he sustained probably several days earlier. He still had a washable bubblegum tattoo of a cartoon figure on his forearm. He was someone's pride and joy and very much loved. I later met the family and witnessed their joy and sadness at the same time, something a person can find hard to comprehend......until it happens to them. I would never ever allow a doctor this cold and calloused in my operating room. She wouldn't understand.....she wouldn't fit in.

oija - 2015-07-16 12:35 PM


To the person who can't afford a box of condoms and probably can't afford a kid either or treatment for STDs, that condom may make a real difference. Better a condom than an abortion, cheaper too. And marketing can work. We all became convinced we needed diamond engagement rings because of marketing, silly as that may be. If marketing can make someone use a condom then hallelujah. Taxpayers paying for biirth control is a completely different issue. I never said anything about the government needing to fund it. Private groups can hand these out as easily as public ones.

I totally agree on the point that we should treat any of these issues and any lives connected with them with dignity and respect. I just firmly believe that whether she were eating or not that people who disagree with her views are going to see her as callous due to her tone of voice and opinions. I believe that she has given herself some emotional distance from this procedure as a survival skill and this comes across; it would come across in any context. I think it is more pertinent to talk about the issue and the procedure than her meal.

When we simply attack her as completely disgusting we are engaging in an ad hominem attack, criticizing the person and not the issue. She is not disgusting though her attitude may be. She is a fully developed human being who believes that what she is doing helps other people. Anyone has the right to disagree with her. Don't attack the person, attack the problem. Hate the sin, love the sinner.

We should not dehumanize her and talk about her like she is an animal at a trough with no human feeling anymore than she should appear to dehumanize the lives of the children that are lost through abortion. She would talk about the technical details the same in any context though I am convinced and seem cold thus I still firmly believe that the meal is irrelevant.

mlh0972 - 2015-07-16 1:00 PM

I do not agree with this video and think it is sooo disgusting and WRONG! Whether it is real or a fake I don't care. It's wrong.

Now what I do have to say is this.

I do not agree with abortion from my own stand point but I do not agree that old men is Washington should have a say over any part of my body whether they see it as being right or wrong. Once again I don't think abortion is right but I won't stop someone from doing it, not my place at this point in time it is legal and they have the right to do it. I do have to say is that I think planned parenthood is a great resource to many people, myself included! I have used there services multiple times. I have bought BC from them, condoms, std tests, all the above. I have utilized their resources so that I could prevent myself from being in a situation where the thought of abortion may come into play.

Now I am not defending this video, woman, or abortion. I am simply stating that the resources, outside of abortion, that planned parenthood provides is a great choice. Before obamacare I didn't have insurance and couldn't afford a doctor. I chose planned parenthood because it was affordable and the smart thing to do so that I wouldn't end up with a child I couldn't afford. I should state that while going to planned parenthood I was and still am in a long term healthy relationship with ONE man. I believe in safe sex and the knowledge of being able to participate in safe consensual sex. If someone wants to go out and screw 100 men then that is their choice, but I would much rather they be smart and safe and have access to places like planned parenthood as a before and not a after option.

Once again, not defending abortion simply stating that Planned parenthood provides resources outside of abortion that have saved women from having an abortion. If planned parenthood did away with abortions it would not bother me once but I do think we need places like planned parenthood to provide healthy resources to girls and boys who otherwise can not afford traditional sex care.

Bear - 2015-07-16 11:55 AM Handing out condoms is a cheap ploy....a ruse. Condoms are cheap.....go out and buy your own condoms. They hand out condoms so people can talk about how wonderful they are. It's a marketing tool. For that matter, I think birth control, in general, ought to be the responsibility of those who decide they need it. Why should hard working taxpayers be expected to provide free birth control? That money would be much better spent educating idiots on basic communication skills like grammar and spelling, because it would benefit society in general. If someone decides they want to have an abortion, that is their right. They are the ones who will have to live with it. They should also be fully aware that they are terminating life. They should be aware that those unborn babies can perceive pain much earlier than once thought. They should also be aware of how abortions are performed, particularly late term abortions. They need to know that the baby squirms and writhes as the baby is crushed, dismembered, mascerated, and pithed. They need to realize that there's a significant chance they will have to deal with the psychological after effects, possibly for a very long time. What I found to be most disturbing about this video was how the woman callously described the gruesome technical details while eating. If you don't find that at least a little disturbing, then I have to wonder about you. For 18 years, as part of a transplant team, I participated in organ procurement on organ donors. Even though their hearts were beating and they looked very much alive, they were brain dead. Without fail, the procedure was conducted as a very solemn procedure. Our behavior and conduct in that operating room was dignified and everyone felt gratified that some family was willing to donate the organs of a loved one. It really is a sight to behold, and nothing illustrates the better angels of our nature, as human beings. Deep inside, in a certain way, we also viewed it as a joyous occasion, because we knew the organs we harvested could save countless lives. The family also found consolation in knowing that their loved one was a hero in death to many people. That provided lasting comfort to them, in an otherwise very sad day. This is why I was appalled with the woman in the video. We conducted ourselves with dignity and respect. We didn't play our usual music, and nobody told jokes. We behaved as if we were under the watchful eye of that donor's family. I'll never forget the imagery of a 12 year old boy who was a donor. As I finished removing his heart, I looked over the drapes at his face, and over at his arm on the IV board. He had fallen out of a treehouse earlier that day. He still had Popsicle stains around his pink lips. He had a bandaid on his hand from a scrape he sustained probably several days earlier. He still had a washable bubblegum tattoo of a cartoon figure on his forearm. He was someone's pride and joy and very much loved. I later met the family and witnessed their joy and sadness at the same time, something a person can find hard to comprehend......until it happens to them. I would never ever allow a doctor this cold and calloused in my operating room. She wouldn't understand.....she wouldn't fit in.