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| This breeding pattern with double breeding to DASH TA FAME is what they term ..... Returning the blood to the sire's dam.....
It is used to increase the influence of the dam on the foal by the line breeding pattern developed with selective breeding from the maternal side to increase the influence of DASH TA FAME ... (Silver Creek Dash has over $53,000 in barrel earnings) extended pedigree >>>> http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/intent+ta+streak
This can be stated as DASH TA FAME 3SD X 3DD ....
3RD generation sires dam x 3RD generation dams dam ...
DASH FOR CASH
5S X 3D X 5D
OR YOU CAN LINE UP THE 5TH GENERATION OF
DASH FOR CASH, EASY JET AND TINYS GAY
5S X 5D ..... on each one ..
This is what I call a very tight stacked pedigree of successful sires and sons along with tremendous mare power everywhere you look!!
Conformation, agility, disposition, size and speed genes are constant and set in the total gene package .... so I term this as a specialized bred barrel and speed event baby!!
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For line breeding this is as tight as is acceptable by noted breeders ...
this is DASH TA FAME line bred by typically coming from sire to dam side of pedigree
2S X 3D
and it created this dynamic individual !!
I am sure many of you will recognize the sire as belonging to a BB ...
FLAMIN TA FAME
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/flamin+ta+fame
Edited by BARRELHORSE USA 2015-11-01 8:58 PM
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 Goat Giver
Posts: 23166
 
| equussynergy - 2015-11-01 6:59 PM crossspur - 2015-11-01 5:53 PM Breeding that close is inbreeding not line breeding. The rule on inbreeding is to breed father to a daughter but never a mother to a son. So when breeding close enough that you are inbreeding you want to double breed the sires side. But still you want to be very careful. Often a inbred animal will be small but then produces super when outcrossed. I was wondering why that is a rule? How is it genetically different than the other way around?
That is another arcahic thought. The genetics are the same either way, just like half siblings are half siblings regardless of whether or not it is due to sire or dam. |
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 Tried and True
Posts: 21185
Location: Where I am happiest | That is exactly what brought us Leo. Leo is the result of half brother and sister. |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 490
| Isn't the saying... If it works then its linebreeding and if it doesnt then its inbreeding? |
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 Guys Just Wanna Have Fun
Posts: 5530
Location: OH | This is the product of breeding a Sun Frost son to a Sun Frost daughter. This was last summer, he is just a yearling.
Edited by Mighty Broke 2015-11-02 7:59 AM
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 Roan Wonder
Location: SW MO | kmcsunshine - 2015-11-02 6:26 AM
equussynergy - 2015-11-01 6:59 PM crossspur - 2015-11-01 5:53 PM Breeding that close is inbreeding not line breeding. The rule on inbreeding is to breed father to a daughter but never a mother to a son. So when breeding close enough that you are inbreeding you want to double breed the sires side. But still you want to be very careful. Often a inbred animal will be small but then produces super when outcrossed. I was wondering why that is a rule? How is it genetically different than the other way around?
Yes the genetics are the same, but it has something to do with the X & Y chromosomes. I won't pretend to be a smarty & understand. Because I don't it's way over my head. |
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 You get what you give
Posts: 13030
Location: Texas | I personally wouldn't.
and as far as half siblings or what not. Yes, horses are half siblings either by father or mother.. but when using that term appropriately in regards to black type and pedigrees and understanding sale catalogs and statistics on racing, they only consider "half siblings" from the dam. it does not mean that the DNA is any different, it's just how they keep records and you have to respect their definition to understand their record keeping.
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Guys Just Wanna Have Fun
Posts: 5530
Location: OH | casualdust07 - 2015-11-02 10:16 AM I personally wouldn't. and as far as half siblings or what not. Yes, horses are half siblings either by father or mother.. but when using that term appropriately in regards to black type and pedigrees and understanding sale catalogs and statistics on racing, they only consider "half siblings" from the dam. it does not mean that the DNA is any different, it's just how they keep records and you have to respect their definition to understand their record keeping.
Explained very well. It is just correct horse terminology even though they are actually 50-50. |
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 Expert
Posts: 1718
Location: Southeast Louisiana | This is why I could never be a breeder. I know it's done... but, reading this stuff just makes me think, "ewwww." I could never do it. Any time I think brother, sister, cousins, etc., I can't help but think of humans and that's just gross. It's not appealing to me with horses, either. |
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 Off the Wall Wacky
Posts: 2981
Location: Louisiana | There's been a lot of insight on this thread!! Thank you all! |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 823
Location: East Texas | crossspur - 2015-11-02 9:11 AM
kmcsunshine - 2015-11-02 6:26 AM
equussynergy - 2015-11-01 6:59 PM crossspur - 2015-11-01 5:53 PM Breeding that close is inbreeding not line breeding. The rule on inbreeding is to breed father to a daughter but never a mother to a son. So when breeding close enough that you are inbreeding you want to double breed the sires side. But still you want to be very careful. Often a inbred animal will be small but then produces super when outcrossed. I was wondering why that is a rule? How is it genetically different than the other way around?
Yes the genetics are the same, but it has something to do with the X & Y chromosomes. I won't pretend to be a smarty & understand. Because I don't it's way over my head.
You are correct. It is not quite the same, and yes it has to do with the sex chromosomes (XX-XY). It is the reason color blindness shows up more often in men than women. The extra X chromosomes that women have can cover up the recessive trait, but it will show up in men. |
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Expert
Posts: 1446
Location: California | Mighty Broke - 2015-11-01 6:14 PM Check at Cowans, they are breeding Sun Frost sons to Sun Frost daughters a lot. Granted some lines linebreed better than others.
they have some of the nicest horses in the country, too. |
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Roan Wonder
Location: SW MO | CrossDRanch - 2015-11-02 10:07 AM
crossspur - 2015-11-02 9:11 AM
kmcsunshine - 2015-11-02 6:26 AM
equussynergy - 2015-11-01 6:59 PM crossspur - 2015-11-01 5:53 PM Breeding that close is inbreeding not line breeding. The rule on inbreeding is to breed father to a daughter but never a mother to a son. So when breeding close enough that you are inbreeding you want to double breed the sires side. But still you want to be very careful. Often a inbred animal will be small but then produces super when outcrossed. I was wondering why that is a rule? How is it genetically different than the other way around?
Yes the genetics are the same, but it has something to do with the X & Y chromosomes. I won't pretend to be a smarty & understand. Because I don't it's way over my head.
You are correct. It is not quite the same, and yes it has to do with the sex chromosomes (XX-XY ). It is the reason color blindness shows up more often in men than women. The extra X chromosomes that women have can cover up the recessive trait, but it will show up in men.
Thank you so much for explaining that :) |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1131
| I would never do it because it looks awful on paper. You do get less money for them, and genetic issues are more likely to occur because of how small the genetic diversity is. |
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Common Sense and then some
Location: So. California | If both the Dam lines are strong, then yes I would give it a shot and see what the result was. It's sex balanced, so I think it might work out well! |
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Expert
Posts: 3147
| Hank Wiescamp did a LOT of inbreeding/line breeding and bred himself out of quarter horses and into the paint horses. |
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 Champ
Posts: 19623
Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm | FlyingHigh1454 - 2015-11-02 8:38 AM
I would never do it because it looks awful on paper. You do get less money for them, and genetic issues are more likely to occur because of how small the genetic diversity is.
The second sentence, second half of it. That's a concern if you're using stock that has known or unknown recessive defects. If you try close breeding like the OP is asking about you need to do your research AND 5 Panel test them. If there are any defects in the sire and dam that are serious, i.e. navel hernias, crypt, parrot mouth, etc. DON'T do it. Don't breed two animals that have the same faults and no serious faults for either of them.
I have a stallion that is close bred. He is a really nice horse. The close breeding gives him power to overcome things like a rough looking head, long back, straight shoulder, etc... He puts a really uniform foal on the ground out of all sorts of mares because of his close breeding to Jet Deck, who was IMO a nearly perfect horse and a stellar racehorse and sire. That's the kind of individual that can be close bred to. I'm really happy I have him and that he is close bred like he is. But MYSELF? The closest I've ever bred is Grandsire on both sides with unrelated pedigrees on the other branches. It worked really well. I don't shy away from a mare that has more Jet Deck either. Many of them are 4th generation or further back. So far, I'm really happy with what I have gotten.
Last year I bred a Judge Cash daughter to a DTF son who is out of an On A High daughter. On A High and Judge Cash are 3/4 siblings. One was a world champion race horse and sire with 113 SI. The other an All American qualifier with a SI 110. I love the colt I got from that cross. He's very nicely built and has a great mind. Time will tell how he works out. |
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Champ
Posts: 19623
Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm | I also want to make one small correction. The genetic contribution from the sire and dam is not exactly 50/50. The sex chromosome of a female is literally an X, for a male it's a Y. Because there is an extra arm on the X there is more genetic material on the X. Also the egg donor contributes MtDNA that only she has. 5% of the total genetic material is from the tail female line to every female to the present. So there is that part that's not equal between the male and female. Splitting hairs I know. |
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 Expert
Posts: 3782
Location: Gainesville, TX | OregonBR - 2015-11-03 12:46 PM
I also want to make one small correction. The genetic contribution from the sire and dam is not exactly 50/50. The sex chromosome of a female is literally an X, for a male it's a Y. Because there is an extra arm on the X there is more genetic material on the X. Also the egg donor contributes MtDNA that only she has. 5% of the total genetic material is from the tail female line to every female to the present. So there is that part that's not equal between the male and female. Splitting hairs I know.
No actually I think this is really important which is why dam line is so important and one of the reasons, though I know they can be great, I've yet to do embryo transfer. That MtDNA matters to me. |
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 Expert
Posts: 2457
| crossspur - 2015-11-02 10:25 AM
CrossDRanch - 2015-11-02 10:07 AM
crossspur - 2015-11-02 9:11 AM
kmcsunshine - 2015-11-02 6:26 AM
equussynergy - 2015-11-01 6:59 PM crossspur - 2015-11-01 5:53 PM Breeding that close is inbreeding not line breeding. The rule on inbreeding is to breed father to a daughter but never a mother to a son. So when breeding close enough that you are inbreeding you want to double breed the sires side. But still you want to be very careful. Often a inbred animal will be small but then produces super when outcrossed. I was wondering why that is a rule? How is it genetically different than the other way around?
Yes the genetics are the same, but it has something to do with the X & Y chromosomes. I won't pretend to be a smarty & understand. Because I don't it's way over my head.
You are correct. It is not quite the same, and yes it has to do with the sex chromosomes (XX-XY ). It is the reason color blindness shows up more often in men than women. The extra X chromosomes that women have can cover up the recessive trait, but it will show up in men.
Thank you so much for explaining that : )
This is also where sexed linked traits can be amplified, which can be desireable depending on what they are ... just another point to drop in there.  |
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Folks on-line