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  Warmblood with Wings
Posts: 27846
    
Location: Florida.. | Personally I dont know how anyone can put a great foundation on a colt in 90 days.. I dont know your situation but thats just in general.. .foundation work is so important and will set the horse up to succeed or fail.. | |
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Expert
Posts: 1695
Location: Willows, CA | Chasem - 2015-11-24 2:07 PM
The trainer has done a good job. The first 30 days was just trying to get him calmed down enough to handle. He is riding him, but he had to give him something to help calm him down. He is learning, but still a little dangerous. I am a good rider and ride a lot of colts, but to old to break them these days. I normal can go with them after 45 to 60 days, but this one were not sure if 6 months will get him.
If the trainer "had to give him something" so he could ride him, you need a different trainer or a different horse. | |
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 Neat Freak
Posts: 11216
Location: Wonderful Wyoming | winwillows - 2015-11-24 8:47 PM
Chasem - 2015-11-24 2:07 PM
The trainer has done a good job. The first 30 days was just trying to get him calmed down enough to handle. He is riding him, but he had to give him something to help calm him down. He is learning, but still a little dangerous. I am a good rider and ride a lot of colts, but to old to break them these days. I normal can go with them after 45 to 60 days, but this one were not sure if 6 months will get him.
If the trainer "had to give him something" so he could ride him, you need a different trainer or a different horse.
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 Expert
Posts: 1526
Location: Texas | Chasem - 2015-11-24 2:07 PM
The trainer has done a good job. The first 30 days was just trying to get him calmed down enough to handle. He is riding him, but he had to give him something to help calm him down. He is learning, but still a little dangerous. I am a good rider and ride a lot of colts, but to old to break them these days. I normal can go with them after 45 to 60 days, but this one were not sure if 6 months will get him.
I'm confused are you frustrated with the horse or trainer. I thought you were frustrated with the trainer till I saw this???????? 90 days on an untouched 3 yr old is not much. I'm always floored at people starting coming 3yr olds to ride! Bad bad idea! Colts should be broke before they even turn 2! | |
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Expert
Posts: 1526
Location: Texas | Bibliafarm - 2015-11-24 8:27 PM
Personally I dont know how anyone can put a great foundation on a colt in 90 days.. I dont know your situation but thats just in general.. .foundation work is so important and will set the horse up to succeed or fail..
Amen best post under this thread yet! | |
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| You have arena trainers that need the fenced in arena for their own confidence and 30 minutes in the saddle a few times a week and then you have horsemen that will work a colt and challenge him to behave and be crazier than the colt and go ride in big pastures to put some miles and wet saddle blankets on them. Rather than nag and pester them in a closed arena...
A tired sweaty horse that has been ridden leisurely becomes a very well broke horse to the basics in a short period of time. .. Then it is up to the owner to learn the cues and movements the horseman has been using and to get the horse seasoned to the lights and sounds of the environment they will eventually be competing ...
Too many "trainers" are overpriced and fail to do their jobs while using your money to play rodeo and go to events instead of working your horses... and going bar hopping all week long ..
I am not going to send one of mine more than a 100 miles from my barn ... because I am going to go and check on progress and this scares the heck out of local "trainers" that have a habit of doing a 5 day rush job after having a horse for 60-90 days.
You can't train a horse when you spend Thursday thru Sunday barrel racing or going to rodeos and resting up on Monday and spending 30 minutes on a horse on Tuesday and Wednesday!!
If you want to scare the crap out of a trainer interview ... ask them if they can match this video or have horse more broke than what they see in this video ... they will turn white and find some reason NOT TO TAKE YOUR HORSE!!
BECKY AMIO .. 30 RIDES ...
https://youtu.be/UwgdHnbmQFk
The movements and focused forward movement and individual moves like flying lead changes, side passing, and gaining the correct lead from a turnaround and then the desensitizing and getting run out of their brain by rattling a barn door, roping a barrel and opening and closing a gate are all movements that a barrel horse uses when running a pattern ... this is my favorite of any training videos I have ever seen and Becky has many videos on youtube showing the same training session where she combines the single movements she has taught ....as she repeats the single movements and adds to them they begin to flow together and get better and better and smoother and smoother ... relaxed focused repetition is a trainers best friend.... .... because these are the basics a good barrel horse must know !!
(Don't get the turnarounds confused with rollbacks... notice the turnaround keeps all 4 feet moving and teaches the horse to feet up under themselves while maintaing forward movement and correct lead whether a 180 or several 360's are asked for ... ) .. rollbacks should never be taught to a barrel horse ... 80% of barrels are knocked because horse was taught rollbacks and rider miscued and horse ducked into the barrel)
HAVE FUN WITH YOUR TRAINER WITH THIS VIDEO ...
you may lose a friend but so be it!! lol ...
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 851
Location: West Texas | There are so many things in your post BarrelHorseUSA that I take issue with. I'll just come out and say it, something doesn't add up here. I have NEVER seen a horse go from unstarted to that in 30 rides. Perhaps that is just the smartest horse there is or the truth hasn't been told. Either way to make many of the statements you have made is bothersome, although there are "some" things I do agree with you, but wouldn't be so general and condescending about. Lastly, flying lead changes should not be taught to a horse in this time frame. Any maneuver taught to a horse is a good one. To think that a horse incorrectly thinks they are being given a roll back cue and knocking over barrels is laughable. All of these things I know, and if someone came running all this stuff to us, we would not take the horse for training (it wouldn't be because of being "scared" as you say with not being able to duplicate this video!) I hope no one reads that and is mislead about good trainers, good training programs, and what to expect and how to act toward their trainer.
I am not running down the trainer in this video. Looks like she does a good job with one.
Edited by Tdove 2015-11-25 6:08 AM
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I just read the headlines
Posts: 4483
| Tdove - 2015-11-25 5:49 AM
There are so many things in your post BarrelHorseUSA that I take issue with. I'll just come out and say it, something doesn't add up here. I have NEVER seen a horse go from unstarted to that in 30 rides. Perhaps that is just the smartest horse there is or the truth hasn't been told. Either way to make many of the statements you have made is bothersome, although there are "some" things I do agree with you, but wouldn't be so general and condescending about. Lastly, flying lead changes should not be taught to a horse in this time frame. Any maneuver taught to a horse is a good one. To think that a horse incorrectly thinks they are being given a roll back cue and knocking over barrels is laughable. All of these things I know, and if someone came running all this stuff to us, we would not take the horse for training (it wouldn't be because of being "scared" as you say with not being able to duplicate this video!) I hope no one reads that and is mislead about good trainers, good training programs, and what to expect and how to act toward their trainer.
I am not running down the trainer in this video. Looks like she does a good job with one.
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Veteran
Posts: 276
| I am not directing this at the OP by any means, but I feel like there are so many people who think they can just send a horse to any trainer for a said amount of time and be guaranteed a nice horse, when that is just not the case. There is so much more to it than that. We have a good friend who we send all our colts to for 30-60 days, but that is only a very very short amount of their learning curve. We start our own as two year olds, put a decent amount of riding on them, we don't pound them, mostly just teach them ground manners and to ride in a round pen and arena, possibly even outside if they are safe enough. We try to really instill a ""good experience" with every ride. While we aren't scared to discipline one, we also try to not make things too difficult and show them that we aren't going to pull on their face or spur the heavens out of them. Usually the winter before they turn 3 we send them to him to get them loping collected circles, moving off leg pressure, stopping, backing, and turning over their butt. This is not the first time these things have been introduced to them, but our working cowhorse friend can make them much more snappy and fluid in these motions. We always consult with him on the things we can work on and have him show us what to do. Following that we get a lot of riding in on the colts and once we feel they are ready to start in the barrels or roping we do so.
It is just unrealistic to think you can go pull an untouched horse out of a pasture, take it to a trainer for a few months, and boom out pops this nice riding colt. If it were that easy, there would be a lot more nice riding horses! Also a pet-peeve of mine, is people who think they can send them to any $500/month ranch cowboy to break them. While I will say there are some out there that will do a good job, you can 99% of the time bet on "you get what you pay for." We take in training horses for barrels and roping and we cannot charge such a low amount because we would be losing money in all the feed and care that we provide. Plus we can only take in so many, because each has their own pipe run with a stall/shed.
Like I said, I am not saying that the OP had these expectations, but I do know some people that do and I find it insane. | |
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Defense Attorney for The Horse
Location: Claremore, OK | I think Barrelhorse USA's post brings up several important points about considerations when hiring a trainer for your horse. Mainly, how NOT to do things ;-)
Contrary to what BhUSA says, there's are trainers that work everyday, don't go to the bar, are full accessible by phone or in person and put a heck of a lot more than a 5 day rush job on a horse that's been there 90 days.
***I think the most important thing that anyone looking for a trainer needs to figure out , especially for colt starting, is what is your style ? And what are your goals to accomplish in the 90 days you're thinking about ?
Some people's idea of "broke" is a horse that won't Buck you off. Some want buttons put on, etc. It sounds like this horse might be a little goosey and OP doesn't like that.
Some horses will always be goosey no matter how much ground work and how much sweat they've sweated.
Molli brings up a great point, starting horses young is much easier than starting a horse that's 3 or 4 that's untouched. He thinks in a completely different mode.
***If you're trainer has to "give him something" that's definitely a big red flag....that's not training.****
Although I'm not starting outside colts anymore, here's a video of a a 2 yo filly that is my idea of "nicely started". She came to me summer of her 2 yo year. She had about 7-8 days of ground work and then started riding. She's soft, confident, quiet, ready to go on with.
http://youtu.be/hSeA36ugQb4
ETA:
They don't all turn out this way in 30 rides. Bloodlines and life experience have a lot to do with it. There are some that are just not going to come around that easy.
Edited by Liana D 2015-11-25 9:03 AM
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Hungarian Midget Woman
Location: Midwest | 80% of all knocked barrels are because a horse was taught rollbacks?
Edited by barrelracr131 2015-11-25 9:15 AM
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 Good Grief!
Posts: 6343
Location: Cap'n Joan Rotgut.....alberta | mollibtexan - 2015-11-25 10:24 PM Chasem - 2015-11-24 2:07 PM The trainer has done a good job. The first 30 days was just trying to get him calmed down enough to handle. He is riding him, but he had to give him something to help calm him down. He is learning, but still a little dangerous. I am a good rider and ride a lot of colts, but to old to break them these days. I normal can go with them after 45 to 60 days, but this one were not sure if 6 months will get him. I'm confused are you frustrated with the horse or trainer. I thought you were frustrated with the trainer till I saw this???????? 90 days on an untouched 3 yr old is not much. I'm always floored at people starting coming 3yr olds to ride! Bad bad idea! Colts should be broke before they even turn 2!
ya im gonna have to disagree on that...it all depends on the colt.........mentally and physically............
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 Fact Checker
Posts: 16575
Location: Displaced Iowegian | BARRELHORSE USA - 2015-11-25 3:35 AM You have arena trainers that need the fenced in arena for their own confidence and 30 minutes in the saddle a few times a week and then you have horsemen that will work a colt and challenge him to behave and be crazier than the colt and go ride in big pastures to put some miles and wet saddle blankets on them. Rather than nag and pester them in a closed arena... A tired sweaty horse that has been ridden leisurely becomes a very well broke horse to the basics in a short period of time. .. Then it is up to the owner to learn the cues and movements the horseman has been using and to get the horse seasoned to the lights and sounds of the environment they will eventually be competing ... Too many "trainers" are overpriced and fail to do their jobs while using your money to play rodeo and go to events instead of working your horses... and going bar hopping all week long .. I am not going to send one of mine more than a 100 miles from my barn ... because I am going to go and check on progress and this scares the heck out of local "trainers" that have a habit of doing a 5 day rush job after having a horse for 60-90 days. You can't train a horse when you spend Thursday thru Sunday barrel racing or going to rodeos and resting up on Monday and spending 30 minutes on a horse on Tuesday and Wednesday!! If you want to scare the crap out of a trainer interview ... ask them if they can match this video or have horse more broke than what they see in this video ... they will turn white and find some reason NOT TO TAKE YOUR HORSE!! BECKY AMIO .. 30 RIDES ... https://youtu.be/UwgdHnbmQFk The movements and focused forward movement and individual moves like flying lead changes, side passing, and gaining the correct lead from a turnaround and then the desensitizing and getting run out of their brain by rattling a barn door, roping a barrel and opening and closing a gate are all movements that a barrel horse uses when running a pattern ... this is my favorite of any training videos I have ever seen and Becky has many videos on youtube showing the same training session where she combines the single movements she has taught ....as she repeats the single movements and adds to them they begin to flow together and get better and better and smoother and smoother ... relaxed focused repetition is a trainers best friend.... .... because these are the basics a good barrel horse must know !! (Don't get the turnarounds confused with rollbacks... notice the turnaround keeps all 4 feet moving and teaches the horse to feet up under themselves while maintaing forward movement and correct lead whether a 180 or several 360's are asked for ... ) .. rollbacks should never be taught to a barrel horse ... 80% of barrels are knocked because horse was taught rollbacks and rider miscued and horse ducked into the barrel ) HAVE FUN WITH YOUR TRAINER WITH THIS VIDEO ... you may lose a friend but so be it!! lol ...
There are days when you just have to shake your head at your posts.....Please NOTE that the video said 30 RIDES.....doesn't say how many "days" of ground work that the horse received. To me, it looks like it had a very good foundation before she ever swung a leg over her. Some of your observations about training barrel horses, etc. lead me to believe that you are nothing more than a "rail jockey". 
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 Expert
Posts: 3782
Location: Gainesville, TX | Liana D - 2015-11-25 8:45 AM
I think Barrelhorse USA's post brings up several important points about considerations when hiring a trainer for your horse. Mainly, how NOT to do things ;- )
Contrary to what BhUSA says, there's are trainers that work everyday, don't go to the bar, are full accessible by phone or in person and put a heck of a lot more than a 5 day rush job on a horse that's been there 90 days.
***I think the most important thing that anyone looking for a trainer needs to figure out , especially for colt starting, is what is your style ? And what are your goals to accomplish in the 90 days you're thinking about ?
Some people's idea of "broke" is a horse that won't Buck you off. Some want buttons put on, etc. It sounds like this horse might be a little goosey and OP doesn't like that.
Some horses will always be goosey no matter how much ground work and how much sweat they've sweated.
Molli brings up a great point, starting horses young is much easier than starting a horse that's 3 or 4 that's untouched. He thinks in a completely different mode.
***If you're trainer has to "give him something" that's definitely a big red flag....that's not training.****
Although I'm not starting outside colts anymore, here's a video of a a 2 yo filly that is my idea of "nicely started". She came to me summer of her 2 yo year. She had about 7-8 days of ground work and then started riding. She's soft, confident, quiet, ready to go on with.
http://youtu.be/hSeA36ugQb4
ETA:
They don't all turn out this way in 30 rides. Bloodlines and life experience have a lot to do with it. There are some that are just not going to come around that easy.
THANK YOU!!! AND THIS IS WHY YOU GET MY BUSINESS AND WILL UNTIL YOU ARE READY TO RETIRE!
If I lived in California, heck, if I lived in Brazil, I'd still ship my horses to Liana because she rides them consistently and hands you back a soft, confident horse that knows how to carry itself. She is great about being in contact, doing videos, answering questions, etc.
Something Liana didn't do and I won't do much of but want to note, is that between the two videos, while the palomino gelding 'looks' like he's performing a number of those maneuvers at greater speed and such you can see a bit more resistance and some failure at self carriage. In the lead changes, when he switches its pushed over, fast, and he always speeds up. It's not an easy transition. He looks a bit front heavy to me from the draw reins (which are not going to help him with self carriage). He's obviously good minded, puts up with noises, etc. well but his expression is not as engaged to me. Both horses do some lateral work and are confidently trotting, backing, loping circles. Both get under themselves in their stops. And both of them, if you took them to a new arena, would probably need a bit of patience as they adjusted to the sights and sounds but would also likely handle it okay. I know that Liana rides most of hers outside too. I think a number of trainers ride them outside some as its as important a mental break for the trainer as it is for the horse.
I have had bad trainer experiences. The type of trainer BHUSA describes DOES exist, but they are not all that way. As much as a bad trainer will leave a really really bad taste in your mouth, a good one will make you glow. And many of us may not in fact have trainers like Liana living within 100 miles of our house.
Like I said, I've had one that's having to have over a year of careful handling and pasture work because of a bad trainer (we had used the guy twice before and not had a problem). But he's coming on okay and will go to Liana for a softer finish and barrel training when he gets back. But Zephyr has come on so soft and nice and willing with her with just 90 days as a 2 year old and 90 as a three year old. She'll get a bit more this next year. A lot of it really does depend on the horse. All that said, Zephyr is FUN TO RIDE, but I still expect her to act like a three year old some days. She'll get calmer and calmer the more she sees and the more confidence she gets.
ETA: That palomino gelding also does A LOT of rollbacks. ;)
Edited by oija 2015-11-25 10:45 AM
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 Crazy Chicken Chick
Posts: 36132
| Liana D - 2015-11-25 8:45 AM I think Barrelhorse USA's post brings up several important points about considerations when hiring a trainer for your horse. Mainly, how NOT to do things ;- ) Contrary to what BhUSA says, there's are trainers that work everyday, don't go to the bar, are full accessible by phone or in person and put a heck of a lot more than a 5 day rush job on a horse that's been there 90 days. ***I think the most important thing that anyone looking for a trainer needs to figure out , especially for colt starting, is what is your style ? And what are your goals to accomplish in the 90 days you're thinking about ? Some people's idea of "broke" is a horse that won't Buck you off. Some want buttons put on, etc. It sounds like this horse might be a little goosey and OP doesn't like that. Some horses will always be goosey no matter how much ground work and how much sweat they've sweated. Molli brings up a great point, starting horses young is much easier than starting a horse that's 3 or 4 that's untouched. He thinks in a completely different mode. ***If you're trainer has to "give him something" that's definitely a big red flag....that's not training.**** Although I'm not starting outside colts anymore, here's a video of a a 2 yo filly that is my idea of "nicely started". She came to me summer of her 2 yo year. She had about 7-8 days of ground work and then started riding. She's soft, confident, quiet, ready to go on with. http://youtu.be/hSeA36ugQb4 ETA: They don't all turn out this way in 30 rides. Bloodlines and life experience have a lot to do with it. There are some that are just not going to come around that easy.
This is exactly why we drove 20+ hrs EACH way to Liana. She allows them the time they need and puts a good foundation on them FIRST. My horses looked fantastic when they left and they were worked. My coming 2yo will go in the fall to Ok to be broke by someone she recommended and then to her to board until the spring when she'll put more time on her and start the pattern (as a 3yo.) It's TOTALLY worth it to know that my horses are well cared for and will be handy broke when they come home. She went above and beyond to get my horses what they needed. | |
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 Expert
Posts: 3815
Location: The best kept secret in TX | BARRELHORSE USA - 2015-11-25 3:35 AM You have arena trainers that need the fenced in arena for their own confidence and 30 minutes in the saddle a few times a week and then you have horsemen that will work a colt and challenge him to behave and be crazier than the colt and go ride in big pastures to put some miles and wet saddle blankets on them. Rather than nag and pester them in a closed arena... A tired sweaty horse that has been ridden leisurely becomes a very well broke horse to the basics in a short period of time. .. Then it is up to the owner to learn the cues and movements the horseman has been using and to get the horse seasoned to the lights and sounds of the environment they will eventually be competing ... Too many "trainers" are overpriced and fail to do their jobs while using your money to play rodeo and go to events instead of working your horses... and going bar hopping all week long .. I am not going to send one of mine more than a 100 miles from my barn ... because I am going to go and check on progress and this scares the heck out of local "trainers" that have a habit of doing a 5 day rush job after having a horse for 60-90 days. You can't train a horse when you spend Thursday thru Sunday barrel racing or going to rodeos and resting up on Monday and spending 30 minutes on a horse on Tuesday and Wednesday!! If you want to scare the crap out of a trainer interview ... ask them if they can match this video or have horse more broke than what they see in this video ... they will turn white and find some reason NOT TO TAKE YOUR HORSE!! BECKY AMIO .. 30 RIDES ... https://youtu.be/UwgdHnbmQFk The movements and focused forward movement and individual moves like flying lead changes, side passing, and gaining the correct lead from a turnaround and then the desensitizing and getting run out of their brain by rattling a barn door, roping a barrel and opening and closing a gate are all movements that a barrel horse uses when running a pattern ... this is my favorite of any training videos I have ever seen and Becky has many videos on youtube showing the same training session where she combines the single movements she has taught ....as she repeats the single movements and adds to them they begin to flow together and get better and better and smoother and smoother ... relaxed focused repetition is a trainers best friend.... .... because these are the basics a good barrel horse must know !! (Don't get the turnarounds confused with rollbacks... notice the turnaround keeps all 4 feet moving and teaches the horse to feet up under themselves while maintaing forward movement and correct lead whether a 180 or several 360's are asked for ... ) .. rollbacks should never be taught to a barrel horse ... 80% of barrels are knocked because horse was taught rollbacks and rider miscued and horse ducked into the barrel ) HAVE FUN WITH YOUR TRAINER WITH THIS VIDEO ... you may lose a friend but so be it!! lol ...
My boy has reined cowhorse training and can do a beautiful roll back... We've yet to hit a barrel....  | |
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Expert
Posts: 1695
Location: Willows, CA | barrelracr131 - 2015-11-25 8:57 AM
80% of all knocked barrels are because a horse was taught rollbacks?
I really don't know what to say this, since you can only do a rollback if you completely stop forward motion first. If a rider runs past a barrel and stops, then cues the horse to roll back over its hocks, I suppose that rider has other problems going on with that run. If a person stops all forward momentum 80% of the time they knock a barrel over it is time to go back to basics. | |
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 Balance Beam and more...
Posts: 11511
Location: 31 lengths farms | I have 3 horses that I started from the ground up right now, all out of the same mare with a stud change on the little mare. The gelding I got as a coming 2 year old, he had been saddled 3x before I got him. He was dog gentle and could walk, jog, lope with leads by day 30. Freak. He has bucked once in his life and he was 7 when he did it...he was cow fresh and did a little half skip/buck thing on his first hard turn back of the morning at a cutting lesson, it was laughable. His full sister we got as a yearling. Showed her in a walk jog training show the 6th time I'd ever been on her..
Then I have their half sister, she was an unstarted (or that was the story) 3 year old. Nothing big until the 45 day mark when I started asking for a bit more and a little longer works and she decided breaking in two waS a good choice of how to tell me she was done learning. Between 45 and 90 days on her was the toughest of our lives with her. Took her seriously until she was 6 to be considered "broke" . | |
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Hungarian Midget Woman
Location: Midwest | To say that 80% of all barrels are knocked for the same reason just seems super plausible too.  | |
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 Expert
Posts: 2097
Location: Deep South | barrelracr131 - 2015-11-25 12:47 PM
To say that 80% of all barrels are knocked for the same reason just seems super plausible too.
And there's this...
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