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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
  
| streakysox - 2015-12-15 10:04 PM
THE HORSE magazine just had an article about this. You may find it on THEHORSE.COM. You may have to have a subscription.
I just googled horse.com and found a few articles, non mentioned an adverse effect on ulcerative horses and IA injections.
Can you post the link? | |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 509
| find a vet who only does performance horses, i drive over two hours the vets in my hometown mostly see dogs cats a few cows and hogs!!!! Some of the stuff they tell the horse owners around here are just plain silly! Find one around race tracks | |
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Blessed 
Location: Here | Dash4KJ - 2015-12-15 9:11 PM Burninbarrels9456 - 2015-12-15 7:50 PM Ok.. Let me clarify... He can't be injected with steroids due to ulcers. I also know of another person whose horse has ulcers and cannot be injected with steroids. Both our horses seen by two different vets in two different states and both vets state same reason. He has stomach ulcers. We are now treating him... The steroid goes straight to the stomach and irritates it just as bute does and causes ulcer horse to colic. Sorry for any confusion. But yes he is being treated for ulcers now. It's been a huge ordeal! That's another story in itself! But finally found a vet who knows what the heck they are doing and talking about! Not true. A needle in the joint will not effect the stomach plus your vet should know better than to inject with straight steroid. That's not helping the joint and your going to be injecting more often.. Get a new vet.
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 Born not Made
Posts: 2930
Location: North Dakota | Burninbarrels9456 - 2015-12-15 8:50 PM Ok.. Let me clarify... He can't be injected with steroids due to ulcers. I also know of another person whose horse has ulcers and cannot be injected with steroids. Both our horses seen by two different vets in two different states and both vets state same reason. He has stomach ulcers. We are now treating him... The steroid goes straight to the stomach and irritates it just as bute does and causes ulcer horse to colic. Sorry for any confusion. But yes he is being treated for ulcers now. It's been a huge ordeal! That's another story in itself! But finally found a vet who knows what the heck they are doing and talking about!
Well, when you get his ulcers under control, why can't he be injected then?
I too am not making sense of this. You are directly injecting a substance into the joint. Sure, a little bit of it may absorb into the general circulation as common sense would tell us. But for it to directly make it to the gut and cause the horse to colic? That just seems far fetched to me. That's a long way for the steriod to travel from the hocks (or whatever limb) all the way directly to the stomach.
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 619
| Ok Peeps, I have read through all of your responses and thank you all for the advice... Having said this, let me clarify again... First off, I didn't go through every detail in this journey I've had with my horse as I was just mainly looking for a good joint supplement that helps keep inflammation down and keeps his joints happy without irritating his sensitive stomach. He currently is on a 28 day Gastroguard treatment, been off grain now for 2 weeks per his NEW vet (which was a 10% sweet, horse manna and his Equithrive joint supplement and his hay), he will be starting a new feed which will start tomorrow per his NEW vet which is the Tribute Kalm and EZ pelleted(this feed is for ulcer prone horses, horses who tend to stress and are nervous and horses with PSSM), once treatment of Gastroguard is done, he will be on Uguard as a preventative, he also is on grass hay and alfalfa plus is on 24/7 turnout. Now since there has been confusion on Vets, I'm going to refer to old vet as Vet A and new vet as Vet B. Vet A seemed to be more interested in injecting my horse with STEROIDS and HA without during further testing to find out what was really going on. I personally do not like injecting horses at all as I have researched and found when it's done a lot, your horses body depends on it and their body eventually stops making its own HA making your horse an injection junkie. Not interested in doing that. VET B has found... Ulcers. I left Vet A because she wasn't helping my horse in the least and seemed to be an injecting junkie herself. Vet B does not inject with STEROIDS at all. She doesn't agree with it.. It doesn't last long and it band aids problems instead of finding problems. I understand that some of you don't agree with the fact that injecting a horse with a steroid who is ulcer prone or sensitive stomach can affect a horse. I respect that.. However, Vet B has an Ulcer prone horse herself who will hit the ground if you inject with steroid, this is another reason she doesn't use them. After her research she found that steroids are an anti-inflammatory and they upset a horses stomach who is prone to ulcers or sensitive stomach just as bute would do. This is NOT the only vet that has said that... I have another friend in another state who has an amazing equine vet that also states the same fact... Her horse is ulcer prone as well and sensitive stomach... Her vet injected with steroid and her horse hit the ground as well. That is how they found out this horse had ulcers. So it's not just my vet who says this. Having said this, I noticed that when Vet A would inject my horse with the steroids and HA, he would get really lifeless and hardly eat... Which I found very strange and it's because he had undiagnosed ulcers and his stomach was irritated from the steroids in the injection. Going forth, I have been talking to the vet with CUROST.. Nice guy, however he is wanting me to put my horse on the Curost Stomach, Adapt and Total Equine... That is $220.00 a month in supplements... Let's be honest... That's a little pricy and not affordable to horse owner's in the least. Would love to try his regimine, I'm sure it's good but I have to think realistically here.. That will be 2600.00 a year in supplements and that isn't even including his feed and hay. We make good money but I just can't do all that. My main reason for sending him a message was just to try and find something for joints and inflammation. My horse has been on Equithrive since July and I just don't care for it, just wanted to try something else and get away from injections totally and quite frankly I don't need all those other supplements when the new feed I'm putting him on does the same thing and is a whole heck of a lot reasonable. Hope this clears up some of the confusion. I will not be seeking another vet until this vet gives me reason too. So far she is the ONLY Equine vet that has been able to get my horse on the road to recovery and has took time to actually go over him with a fine tooth comb and listen to my concerns. She is not a shabby vet in the least.. She is highly recommended by many many people and has fixed a number of problem horses all because other vets didn't want to take the time to listen to the client and look at the horse as a whole checking everything from head to tail. | |
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  Warmblood with Wings
Posts: 27846
Location: Florida.. | What did your "new" vet recommend if she said it will kill your horse because like your post she went over him ..and should have a recommendation. If your horse shows behavior or lameness etc Id definately listen to him.. hocks fuse naturally but can be painful and if ignored will cause alot of other issues. so my advice is listen to your horse . The meds they give horse prior to injecting may have been the culprit in horse going down as well.. many factors play into it.. | |
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 Owner of a ratting catting machine
Posts: 2258
| Just. So. Confused.
You'll pay for Gastrogard, and expensive new feed, but won't pay for good supplements? I understand what you mean about CurOst being expensive, and it's not for everyone. There's some excellent alternatives, but honestly, I'm not even sure that any of it works. It's all of it expensive and nothing too proven. It's so hard to select good products. I'm feeding CurOst stuff myself, trust me, more for the guinea pig factor than anything. Time will tell. The Stomach and Adapt I can say have done awesome stuff for mine. Jury is out on joints.
As for injecting causing ulcer horse to go down, I just don't agree.
If you don't like injecting, so be it. Some people don't, so they don't inject. I think you have a LOT of misconceptions behind it all, and have found a holistic type of vet that supports your ideas. That's fine, but I would be expecting her to be supporting me more with ideas of what to do and how to increase my horses comfort level.
It's easy to read on the Internet and translate things your way, published works with lots of research are your best bet.
Injecting a few mL of steroid into an enclosed joint capsule just isn't going to pull your horse down, or irritate his ulcers. How does it get there in enough volume?
A stressful trip to the vet, complete with hauling etc might cause an upset tummy, but the medication used won't.
I'm glad you're treating the ulcers with the good stuff, so many try to wriggle out of it. (I did for years, now I just buy the real stuff).
Edited by classicpotatochip 2015-12-19 8:59 AM
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I just read the headlines
Posts: 4483
| You won't be feeding the Stomach for long. I had my horse on the Stomach and Adapt for 2 months then Dr. Schell had me change to Total which for the first month was $240, but then the next month it was just $120. I will be feeding him Adapt when I know he will be stressed, but that isn't expensive. If your new regime doesn't work, you might keep this on mind. I hope you have found the answer for your horse. It is really frustrating trying to go the best for your horse! | |
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 Good Grief!
Posts: 6343
Location: Cap'n Joan Rotgut.....alberta | Imo...there isnt one....M | |
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Blessed
Location: Here | classicpotatochip - 2015-12-19 8:10 AM Just. So. Confused. You'll pay for Gastrogard, and expensive new feed, but won't pay for good supplements? I understand what you mean about CurOst being expensive, and it's not for everyone. There's some excellent alternatives, but honestly, I'm not even sure that any of it works. It's all of it expensive and nothing too proven. It's so hard to select good products. I'm feeding CurOst stuff myself, trust me, more for the guinea pig factor than anything. Time will tell. The Stomach and Adapt I can say have done awesome stuff for mine. Jury is out on joints. As for injecting causing ulcer horse to go down, I just don't agree. If you don't like injecting, so be it. Some people don't, so they don't inject. I think you have a LOT of misconceptions behind it all, and have found a holistic type of vet that supports your ideas. That's fine, but I would be expecting her to be supporting me more with ideas of what to do and how to increase my horses comfort level. It's easy to read on the Internet and translate things your way, published works with lots of research are your best bet. Injecting a few mL of steroid into an enclosed joint capsule just isn't going to pull your horse down, or irritate his ulcers. How does it get there in enough volume? A stressful trip to the vet, complete with hauling etc might cause an upset tummy, but the medication used won't. I'm glad you're treating the ulcers with the good stuff, so many try to wriggle out of it. (I did for years, now I just buy the real stuff).
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| To the op, I read your most current addition.
I have issues with your new vet, and you need to get clarification,
here are the reasons why
One anecdotal story about a vets horse going down after an IA injection is not sufficient research to stop a proven procedure. If she believes this she would never do colic surgery as some die.
I would be asking her which steroid did they inject, as the research shows there are better ones.
Also I would be asking did she test the horse for an adverse reaction to the anesthetic, as there are certain anaesthetics that have a tendency to cause 1:1000 horses to go into an unstable cardiac arrhythmia and die, maybe she got lucky.
I would also ask your friend what they injected into her horse to make he horse go down.
I am a big fan of omeprazole for curing ulcers, but after the 28 days, your vet should have told you you need to stop. A horse cannot live on a daily dose of omeprazole as it impedes the digestion and absorption, therefore you can have brittle bones, electrolyte imbalances which can cause cardiac issues, and your horse will be more prone to colic.
It sounds like you are open to other suggestions
Papaya has been scientifically proven to cure and prevent ulcers, my vet showed me the published journal articles there are on pub med.
Green clay, a friends holistic practitioner suggested this to her after omeprazole didn't work, and her horse responded to it, a tablespoon a day in the grain, you can get it at any natural food store it costs 5.00 for a months supply.
The company who makes Redmond salt has a clay you feed daily, I can't remember the name, but I have one mare who is ulcer prone, and this is the only product that she quit grinding her teeth on. It cots 15.00/month
For the joints
I do disagree with the horse becoming dependent on injections, (only steroid used during this comment Trimisclione) here is why
The body actually absorbs/breaks down the injected solution after 3 days. The HA prohibits prostaglandin production therefore it prevents inflammation, allows healing and stimulates the cells in the joint (can't remember the certain cell name) to produce its own HA. The Trimethisclone is the only steroid that has been scientifically proven to help repair cartilage, the rest destroy it this is why my vet only uses this one type.
A horse should only be injected after a proper evaluation is completed, flexion, blocking, xray and ultrasound. I never let a vet inject without doing an xray, this is against their code of conduct, policies and procedures, I will pay the extra 120-200 for X-rays, then the vet has to analyze the xray with me before I will allow anything. So if vet 1 was injecting without X-rays he actually needed to be reported to his vet association IMO.
As for things to prolong injections or prevent, I am all on prevention.
I put my barrel horses on Lubrysin, it costs me 75/horse/month. There is no way to scientifically prove the product gets to the joints. The research shows horses on the product improve in soundness versus the placebo group. Their theory is the Lubrysin is absorbed into the blood stream before it gets to the stomach. Lubrysin is an oral HA. When I asked my vet about it, he said if the product does what they say it does it will be a great product, it made a drastic difference on my dog, and I haven't had to inject yet. The downside is you have to give it daily.
Glucosamine injectible I have used on a weekly basis and it reduces inflammation, on my old gelding it did prolong his injections, the day after I gave it his windpuffs would disappear, by the end of the week the windpuffs are back. Windpuffs are a sign of inflammation. 30/bottle
Pentosan, and polyglycan are two other products people on the board have had good results with, I have some but haven't given it yet. Can't remember what I paid but it is cheap
The adequan regime is a good way to start, I think it is 750 to do the regime.
As for non pharmaceutical things
Game ready post riding 4500 machine
Or cold hosting min 30 min/leg per time
Clay poultice
Ice wraps, jt brand is what I use I leave them on for 45 min bought on amazon for 30/wrap still on my first ones that are 6 yrs old.
If you want clarification or have questions feel free to message me | |
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| Another question has the horse been diagnosed with Pssm? Which type?
Have you tested for cushings? | |
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Nut Case Expert
Posts: 9305
Location: Tulsa, Ok | mruggles - 2015-12-19 1:49 PM Imo...there isnt one....M I am with you. If a horse truly needs to be injected there is not an alternative that is going to get the job done as quickly, effectively or completely as just putting the appropriate substance into the joint in question. I am of the opinion that keeping it simple is best with "ulcer prone" horses and feed thru supplements would be just one more irritant to the digetive trac.
Edited by SC Wrangler 2015-12-20 4:20 PM
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Warmblood with Wings
Posts: 27846
Location: Florida.. | mruggles - 2015-12-19 2:49 PM Imo...there isnt one....M
I agree
you can give it time off.. but then fusing takes longer and other things wont be resolved.. | |
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 IMA No Hair Style Gal
Posts: 2594
| Equithrive Joint
https://equithrive.com/
If you look at the reviews it is serisouly a 5 star product. I am a huge fan of this product for my horse that has minor OCD.
Did injections....the injections didn't touch what this supplement has done for my horse.
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 619
| Equithrive is what he is going to stay on from here on out... I'm done explaining his history over and over here.. All I was asking is if there was such thing as an alternative to joint injection. This post is beginning to be WAY too much for me... He doesn't have PSSM or Cushings, my vet is not a holistic vet. My vet didn't prescribe for him to be on Gastroguard from here to eternity.. Just 28 days.. Then he goes on a supplement called U-guard, to prevent ulcers.. Not to be confused with Ulcerguard.. 2 totally different things. His feed is only 15.00 a bag.. Don't need other supplements because it's already in the feed in which I might add is for horses with ulcers, PSSM and other issues. Look it up.. Tribute Feeds Kalm and EZ.. My friends horse was also injected with steroids and hit the ground... You all are asking me to explain why my vet and her vet... 2 different states are saying this about injecting steroids.. I don't know.. I'm not a vet. My vet is a performance horse vet and she is one of the Top vets in our area.. You know.. I went back and forth with even asking anything on this board because it never fails everybody wants to give the same generic negative responses and try to diagnose ones horse through a computer screen! Doesn't work people! I will NEVER come to this board again and ask for any advice! Peace out!
Edited by Burninbarrels9456 2015-12-20 9:38 PM
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| Burninbarrels9456 - 2015-12-20 9:37 PM
Equithrive is what he is going to stay on from here on out... I'm done explaining his history over and over here.. All I was asking is if there was such thing as an alternative to joint injection. This post is beginning to be WAY too much for me... He doesn't have PSSM or Cushings, my vet is not a holistic vet. My vet didn't prescribe for him to be on Gastroguard from here to eternity.. Just 28 days.. Then he goes on a supplement called U-guard, to prevent ulcers.. Not to be confused with Ulcerguard.. 2 totally different things. His feed is only 15.00 a bag.. Don't need other supplements because it's already in the feed in which I might add is for horses with ulcers, PSSM and other issues. Look it up.. Tribute Feeds Kalm and EZ.. My friends horse was also injected with steroids and hit the ground... You all are asking me to explain why my vet and her vet... 2 different states are saying this about injecting steroids.. I don't know.. I'm not a vet. My vet is a performance horse vet and she is one of the Top vets in our area.. You know.. I went back and forth with even asking anything on this board because it never fails everybody wants to give the same generic negative responses and try to diagnose ones horse through a computer screen! Doesn't work people! I will NEVER come to this board again and ask for any advice! Peace out!
All I can say is wow to the hostility.
There are many knowledgable people on this board, and most of us have lived through bad experiences with vets, diagnosis, etc. Some of us have better relationships with our vets, some are more proactive on the care of our horses, some don't have the experience or knowledge on what to ask and what to do, some vets take advantage of this as it is an easy pay check.
You have been given some good suggestions.
Why I asked about Pssm is because you are giving a food for horses with Pssm, some horses with undiagnosed Pssm can look like arthritis, if X-rays haven't been done, and the horse wasn't tested this could be something that could have been a possibility. Cushings can cause laminitis which can also look like front end arthritis in certain stages. This is where a thorough evaluation is important.
I am an advocate for All horse owners to know exactly what the vet is doing and why he is doing it. I know what sedatives my vet gives prior to the procedure, I watch him draw it up. If I need to do injections, we discuss the rationale of the injections, location, drugs used amount, etc. I actually insist that the vet scrubs the injection site for 8 min, if he doesn't have anyone to do it, I scrub, as it has been proven in both horses and humans the mechanical action removes more bacteria then not and has less incidence of infection of cleaning then alcohol.
I suggest take control of your horses health, do your research before you go to the vet, make a list of the questions to ask before. Get the records including X-rays, reports from each vet review it, and keep it on hand, you never know when you will be forced to go to a different vet (vet out of town, emergency)
Also don't take a vets word for anything, ask them to prove it, show the research, I have started a collection of veterinary texts specifically focusing on pharmacology, this way I can grab my book and read up on anything I need to. | |
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Gettin Jiggy Wit It
Posts: 2734
| cheryl makofka - 2015-12-20 10:48 PM Burninbarrels9456 - 2015-12-20 9:37 PMEquithrive is what he is going to stay on from here on out... I'm done explaining his history over and over here.. All I was asking is if there was such thing as an alternative to joint injection. This post is beginning to be WAY too much for me... He doesn't have PSSM or Cushings, my vet is not a holistic vet. My vet didn't prescribe for him to be on Gastroguard from here to eternity.. Just 28 days.. Then he goes on a supplement called U-guard, to prevent ulcers.. Not to be confused with Ulcerguard.. 2 totally different things. His feed is only 15.00 a bag.. Don't need other supplements because it's already in the feed in which I might add is for horses with ulcers, PSSM and other issues. Look it up.. Tribute Feeds Kalm and EZ.. My friends horse was also injected with steroids and hit the ground... You all are asking me to explain why my vet and her vet... 2 different states are saying this about injecting steroids.. I don't know.. I'm not a vet. My vet is a performance horse vet and she is one of the Top vets in our area.. You know.. I went back and forth with even asking anything on this board because it never fails everybody wants to give the same generic negative responses and try to diagnose ones horse through a computer screen! Doesn't work people! I will NEVER come to this board again and ask for any advice! Peace out! All I can say is wow to the hostility.There are many knowledgable people on this board, and most of us have lived through bad experiences with vets, diagnosis, etc. Some of us have better relationships with our vets, some are more proactive on the care of our horses, some don't have the experience or knowledge on what to ask and what to do, some vets take advantage of this as it is an easy pay check.You have been given some good suggestions.Why I asked about Pssm is because you are giving a food for horses with Pssm, some horses with undiagnosed Pssm can look like arthritis, if X-rays haven't been done, and the horse wasn't tested this could be something that could have been a possibility. Cushings can cause laminitis which can also look like front end arthritis in certain stages. This is where a thorough evaluation is important.I am an advocate for All horse owners to know exactly what the vet is doing and why he is doing it. I know what sedatives my vet gives prior to the procedure, I watch him draw it up. If I need to do injections, we discuss the rationale of the injections, location, drugs used amount, etc. I actually insist that the vet scrubs the injection site for 8 min, if he doesn't have anyone to do it, I scrub, as it has been proven in both horses and humans the mechanical action removes more bacteria then not and has less incidence of infection of cleaning then alcohol.I suggest take control of your horses health, do your research before you go to the vet, make a list of the questions to ask before. Get the records including X-rays, reports from each vet review it, and keep it on hand, you never know when you will be forced to go to a different vet (vet out of town, emergency )Also don't take a vets word for anything, ask them to prove it, show the research, I have started a collection of veterinary texts specifically focusing on pharmacology, this way I can grab my book and read up on anything I need to.
Edited by WetSaddleBlankets 2015-12-20 11:20 PM
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 Double Standards Don't Fly
Posts: 1283
Location: At the barn | Hyalun Pro
My gelding was a nightmare as far as his hocks go. I put him on Hyalun instead of injecting. He went from 100% lame to 95% sound in thirty days. | |
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Owner of a ratting catting machine
Posts: 2258
| You asked for alternatives. You got alternatives, nothing's proven the way joint injections are. The alternatives are as proven as your idea that joint injections 'kill', 'harm' ulcer horses.
You need to educate yourself. Trusting anyone blindly, even someone with a medical degree, is stupid. We have all been there, and had 20/20 hind sight about telling our farriers, vets, friends, etc, to 'peace out', just like you did the board.
When you say, "I don't know." to questions asked, we just as much wanted to know 'why' as we thought you would. Instead, you locked up. Why ever would you not want to find out, if it's in the interest of your horse and his pain level and happiness? What if your vet is smoking crack? What if your vet miscommunicated? What if your vet has a logical explanation, that you can disprove or support through your own reading, and have good judgement and be involved in your own property's well being?
I hope you get your horse straightened out, but please, please educate yourself. Have a Merry Christmas, I absolutely plan on 'peacing out' myself for the holidays...  | |
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