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Elite Veteran
Posts: 788
  
| I was a little skeptical at first, but after riding a Clayton dtr, I can tell you they are every bit as "normal" and nice as the next really great bred horse. She is super smart, has an attitude (in a good way), and a Chiropractor told me she is tough and will likely last a long time, which sounded a lot like Scamper to me. :)
I do really hope some more of them surface before long so people will maybe lose some of the judgemental thinking about the whole situation. | |
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  Friendly horse swapper
Posts: 4122
Location: Buffalo, TX | 1DSoon - 2016-03-17 10:52 AM Cindy Hamilton - 2016-03-17 11:30 AM .fastest time wins.. isn't that how it works now?
It was a sarcastic remark trying to make the point that the clock is the only judge of "pedigree value" in a barrel horse....sorry you didn't "get it"... | |
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 Keeper of the King Snake
Posts: 7617
Location: Dubach, LA | I really expected to have seen multiple winners in the futurity pen by now. I know it's possible that some owners may have been looking down the long road at rodeo, but I surely believed most owners would try to showcase such exceptional breeding in futurities/derbies. | |
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Expert
Posts: 1446
Location: California | CanCan - 2016-03-17 6:04 PM I really expected to have seen multiple winners in the futurity pen by now. I know it's possible that some owners may have been looking down the long road at rodeo, but I surely believed most owners would try to showcase such exceptional breeding in futurities/derbies.
I mean this genuinely, why hasn't Charmaine done futurity with one? Or derbys? To get it some street credit? Maybe someone knows? | |
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 Warmblood with Wings
Posts: 27846
Location: Florida.. | Red Raider - 2016-03-17 11:04 AM JcNhEmI - 2016-03-16 10:05 AM There is one in the big piney Wyoming area, she's a nice mare and works a nice pattern! I wish Dash4KJ would post more pictures and info about Boyfriend and her newest (which she did post was born back in January) but I don't blame her for not doing so after all the backlash she received when Boyfriend wasn't even here yet and she was posting about her experience. As my mom would say, "This is why we can't have nice things!" It's my hope that things will die down controversy wise so we can just enjoy what is there without the drama behind it all. I can't remember how long ago it was that they first started breeding Clayton (6 or 7 years?) but I figure we should start seeing one making a name for itself pretty soon, especially with all the good mares involving in the breedings.
Edited by Bibliafarm 2016-03-17 8:49 PM
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Regular
Posts: 85
| Please don't think I'm dumb, I have just never asked before, I've always tried figuring it out myself. Which, that didn't work.
With that said, why can't you register clayton's colts?
Is it because he's a clone of scamper? I understand that scamper is great, and there will truly never be another scamper no matter how you put it but I don't think that I could drop that kind of money on a stud that 1) i haven't seen prove himself, 2) you cant register his babies and 3) you never hear about him or his offspring...
I was and will always be a big fan of scamper, I think he was and is still great even being just a horse. However, before I breed to a stud with a high stud fee or stud fee of any sort, I like some background... As in, did this horse prove himself in the arena, behind a calf, on the pattern, etc, or did his off spring do so...
Call me crazy, but this is how I've looked at it for a long time.
Mainly because I have been in the position of breeding to a well bred stud, who had some offpsring and I think I got the dud.. LOL (He is very loved, he's just very lazy beyond what words could explain, otherwise I can't knock him whatsoever....) | |
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Expert
Posts: 1446
Location: California | WranglersCinch - 2016-03-18 12:26 PM
Please don't think I'm dumb, I have just never asked before, I've always tried figuring it out myself. Which, that didn't work.
With that said, why can't you register clayton's colts?
Is it because he's a clone of scamper? I understand that scamper is great, and there will truly never be another scamper no matter how you put it but I don't think that I could drop that kind of money on a stud that 1) i haven't seen prove himself, 2) you cant register his babies and 3) you never hear about him or his offspring...
I was and will always be a big fan of scamper, I think he was and is still great even being just a horse. However, before I breed to a stud with a high stud fee or stud fee of any sort, I like some background... As in, did this horse prove himself in the arena, behind a calf, on the pattern, etc, or did his off spring do so...
Call me crazy, but this is how I've looked at it for a long time.
Mainly because I have been in the position of breeding to a well bred stud, who had some offpsring and I think I got the dud.. LOL (He is very loved, he's just very lazy beyond what words could explain, otherwise I can't knock him whatsoever....)
AQHA doesn't allow registration from cloned horses. There was a huge law suit about. There are multiple horses that are cloned aside from scamper, and a lot of different people had their hands in that pot. Took it to court and judge ruled in favor of AQHA. | |
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 I Don't Brag
Posts: 6960
| horsiace1025 - 2016-03-17 11:25 AM
I was a little skeptical at first, but after riding a Clayton dtr, I can tell you they are every bit as "normal" and nice as the next really great bred horse. She is super smart, has an attitude (in a good way), and a Chiropractor told me she is tough and will likely last a long time, which sounded a lot like Scamper to me. :)
I do really hope some more of them surface before long so people will maybe lose some of the judgemental thinking about the whole situation.
The only "judgmental" thing I have about the situation is that people with lots of money got their horses cloned, KNOWING that they were not eligible for registry then turned around and used their said money to try and force the AQHA to allow them to be registered as any quarter horse.
The jury is still out as whether not the offspring of clones will perform consistently at as high a level as true get off any given mare or stud. And note, Clayton was never given a chance to prove himself in the barrel pen for fear that he could not come close to Scamper's winning record.
That being said, you don't ride the papers and if I could win on one, I would be happy to do so. | |
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 Goat Giver
Posts: 23166
| Red Raider - 2016-03-17 10:04 AM JcNhEmI - 2016-03-16 10:05 AM There is one in the big piney Wyoming area, she's a nice mare and works a nice pattern! I wish Dash4KJ would post more pictures and info about Boyfriend and her newest (which she did post was born back in January) but I don't blame her for not doing so after all the backlash she received when Boyfriend wasn't even here yet and she was posting about her experience. As my mom would say, "This is why we can't have nice things!" It's my hope that things will die down controversy wise so we can just enjoy what is there without the drama behind it all. I can't remember how long ago it was that they first started breeding Clayton (6 or 7 years?) but I figure we should start seeing one making a name for itself pretty soon, especially with all the good mares involving in the breedings.
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 Expert
Posts: 1718
Location: Southeast Louisiana | I really wish AQHA had kept their standards as high as the Jockey Club. But, if they're going to allow AI, embryo transfers and gender selection, why not clones as well. It's a slippery slope that they've already slid down. I don't understand their logic in drawing a line in the sand *now* on this one thing... The clone does have the quarter horse genetics and the horse is represented by what's documented on its papers.
As far as performance, each clone is an individual and they develop beyond the genetics based on their exposure and experiences. Cloning a champion doesn't mean it's going to automatically develop into a champion. I think the only reason they didn't run Clayton is because of how much it cost to get him on the ground and they didn't want to risk injury. They wanted Scamper's genetics, and that's what Clayton is here for. | |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 557
Location: Kansas and loving it | Nita - 2016-03-19 5:59 AM
I really wish AQHA had kept their standards as high as the Jockey Club. But, if they're going to allow AI, embryo transfers and gender selection, why not clones as well. It's a slippery slope that they've already slid down. I don't understand their logic in drawing a line in the sand *now* on this one thing... The clone does have the quarter horse genetics and the horse is represented by what's documented on its papers.
As far as performance, each clone is an individual and they develop beyond the genetics based on their exposure and experiences. Cloning a champion doesn't mean it's going to automatically develop into a champion. I think the only reason they didn't run Clayton is because of how much it cost to get him on the ground and they didn't want to risk injury. They wanted Scamper's genetics, and that's what Clayton is here for.
Charmayne didn't pay anything to get Scamper cloned. The only financial loss would be Clayton not being a 1D horse and losing credibility. | |
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Miss Southern Sunshine
Posts: 7427
Location: South Central Florida | rockette - 2016-03-19 10:34 AM Nita - 2016-03-19 5:59 AM I really wish AQHA had kept their standards as high as the Jockey Club. But, if they're going to allow AI, embryo transfers and gender selection, why not clones as well. It's a slippery slope that they've already slid down. I don't understand their logic in drawing a line in the sand *now* on this one thing... The clone does have the quarter horse genetics and the horse is represented by what's documented on its papers. As far as performance, each clone is an individual and they develop beyond the genetics based on their exposure and experiences. Cloning a champion doesn't mean it's going to automatically develop into a champion. I think the only reason they didn't run Clayton is because of how much it cost to get him on the ground and they didn't want to risk injury. They wanted Scamper's genetics, and that's what Clayton is here for. Charmayne didn't pay anything to get Scamper cloned. The only financial loss would be Clayton not being a 1D horse and losing credibility.
Curious Rockette, I never heard that. Is this something you read, or do you have personal experience? I always "heard" what the costs were and what the expenses involved were.
I happen to agree on the Clone issue. They could easily ad an addendum to the number just like the Yellow papers and the different numbering system for TB/QH crosses, Appendix horses. They can earn their way into regular registration, but What difference does it make if they can be verified.
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 557
Location: Kansas and loving it | Swannranch - 2016-03-19 2:20 PM
rockette - 2016-03-19 10:34 AM Nita - 2016-03-19 5:59 AM I really wish AQHA had kept their standards as high as the Jockey Club. But, if they're going to allow AI, embryo transfers and gender selection, why not clones as well. It's a slippery slope that they've already slid down. I don't understand their logic in drawing a line in the sand *now* on this one thing... The clone does have the quarter horse genetics and the horse is represented by what's documented on its papers. As far as performance, each clone is an individual and they develop beyond the genetics based on their exposure and experiences. Cloning a champion doesn't mean it's going to automatically develop into a champion. I think the only reason they didn't run Clayton is because of how much it cost to get him on the ground and they didn't want to risk injury. They wanted Scamper's genetics, and that's what Clayton is here for. Charmayne didn't pay anything to get Scamper cloned. The only financial loss would be Clayton not being a 1D horse and losing credibility.
I happen to agree on the Clone issue. They could easily ad an addendum to the number just like the Yellow papers and the different numbering system for TB/QH crosses, Appendix horses. They can earn their way into regular registration, but What difference does it make if they can be verified.Â
On RIDE TV they have a program called This Old Horse Carly Twisselman does the interview. She had one about Scamper, Tony Garritano said that VIAGEN was looking for a champion horse to clone and he thought Scamper was a great choice to promote. So they did it for free. Then Charmayne compared Scamper to Secretariat, which I thought was odd. But I enjoyed the stories about Scamper and some rare footage. | |
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10D Crack Champion
| rockette - 2016-03-19 5:29 PM Swannranch - 2016-03-19 2:20 PM rockette - 2016-03-19 10:34 AM Nita - 2016-03-19 5:59 AM I really wish AQHA had kept their standards as high as the Jockey Club. But, if they're going to allow AI, embryo transfers and gender selection, why not clones as well. It's a slippery slope that they've already slid down. I don't understand their logic in drawing a line in the sand *now* on this one thing... The clone does have the quarter horse genetics and the horse is represented by what's documented on its papers. As far as performance, each clone is an individual and they develop beyond the genetics based on their exposure and experiences. Cloning a champion doesn't mean it's going to automatically develop into a champion. I think the only reason they didn't run Clayton is because of how much it cost to get him on the ground and they didn't want to risk injury. They wanted Scamper's genetics, and that's what Clayton is here for. Charmayne didn't pay anything to get Scamper cloned. The only financial loss would be Clayton not being a 1D horse and losing credibility.
I happen to agree on the Clone issue. They could easily ad an addendum to the number just like the Yellow papers and the different numbering system for TB/QH crosses, Appendix horses. They can earn their way into regular registration, but What difference does it make if they can be verified.
 On RIDE TV they have a program called This Old Horse Carly Twisselman does the interview. She had one about Scamper, Tony Garritano said that VIAGEN was looking for a champion horse to clone and he thought Scamper was a great choice to promote. So they did it for free. Then Charmayne compared Scamper to Secretariat, which I thought was odd. But I enjoyed the stories about Scamper and some rare footage.
I saw the same show on RideTV that rockette mentioned.  They said Viagen cloned Scamper free of charge to Charmayne and Tony. I inferred from the interview it was a way to get Viagen's name out there and they were offering some free cloning to great horses in different disciplines for publicity. No one said that others were offered cloning for free, but it was free for Charmayne and Tony to clone Scamper. Viagen covered the costs. From the interview I think the fact it would not cost them anything financially played a big role in their decision to clone Scamper. I also think Viagen initially contacted Charmayne and Tony about cloning, but I could have misunderstood that part.
Edited by sodapop 2016-03-19 6:09 PM
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 Veteran
Posts: 133
| They offer Ride TV on Dish but not on DirecTV. Looks like a great channel so I requested it on DirecTV. https://ridetv.com/see-whats-playing-now/this-old-horse/ | |
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Veteran
Posts: 133
| Found it online but still can't find the episode about Scamper ... http://www.carbontv.com/shows/this-old-horse/ | |
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 Extreme Veteran
Posts: 460
| In my opinion, I wouldn't want to breed to a clone... like others have said, he is pretty much grade and unproven. But to me, the biggest thing is that he is still not scamper. There have been many great race horses, which after, the owners have bred the dam back to the same sire and produced a full sibling to the champion. Only to have the sibling turn out to be a complete dud! No matter how you put it, to me, clayton is not scamper. I might not be right, but that's just how I think about it :) | |
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 Veteran
Posts: 101
| I personally wouldn't want to breed to the clone just because I am not sure as to what the "old genes" effects are on the offspring. That is my whole stance on the issue, other than that since he is genetically identical to Scamper for breeding purposes I don't see the big deal. With brothers and sisters there are still genetic differences doesn't matter that they are full siblings, which could be why one is a champion and the other is a dud. Then again isn't it all based on luck   | |
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 More bootie than waist!
Posts: 18425
Location: Riding Crackhead. | I have the RideTV interview recorded on my DVR. Its been a while since I watched it but I do recall them saying it was free. I was surprised at that since I was thinking CJ had made the comments when they first did it about the cost. | |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 557
Location: Kansas and loving it | I am not wishing failure to anyone, I just find it interesting that other stallions are ripped to shreds or discounted, even though they have several futurity winners on the ground. Yet Clayton is handled with kid gloves. | |
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