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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 678
  
Location: Canada | mreklaw - 2016-03-24 2:55 PM
MS2011 - 2016-03-24 2:47 PM
SassyPirate - 2016-03-24 2:38 PM RunNitroRun - 2016-03-24 1:32 PM We did it one year for an event we were trying to attract people too. The event was a Futurity/Derby with a Jackpot and typically brought in some pro level girls who were carrying their time over from the Futurity/Derby races. They weren't racing again and because the ladies basically took home the 1D and 2D payouts people got tired of coming because the payouts in the 3D and 4D really weren't worth coming. (These were women coming from far away locations (16+ hours) where there are winter jackpots and lots of year round events so the local competitors didn't feel the event was worth attending.) The year we made it equal we increased our attendance by 40% which made a huge difference and it brought people back to the event. It was great for attracting people and making decisions for the future of that event. A lot of people made the same comment that if it's equal what is the incentive to get better. I've witnessed a lot of 1D riders who can't ride worth crap but can hang on (sometimes barely) and run a really fast horse. I've also witnessed a lot of 3D riders who can't afford anything more get the most out of their 3D horse with perfect patterns. Saying that a person won't get better has more factors then what a clock and a cheque says. Just because there are equal payouts doesn't mean you're going to get a cheque so I don't understand why a person wouldn't attend (unless you make your living running barrels). I agree with this!! If you all pay the same entry fee, why not!! We always get way more entries when we do equal payout.
At the end of the day - the fastest horse deserves the most $$$$. Â You don't really ever 'win' anything but the 1D - you just happened to get lucky and your numbers hit. Â Luck doesn't deserve the reward being the best does. Â
Exactly! I agree totally with your comment MS2011. And as far as some 1D riders barely staying on their horses, I have seen very accomplished riders and trainers almost come off really quick or hard turning horses.
I'm certainly not knocking those accomplished riders on quick turning horses. I too have seen some fantastic riders where suddenly that horse just zips around a barrel and catches them off guard. It can happen to absolutely anyone. Those were not the type I was referring to.
I've seen some riders where you absolutely can't watch them for fear they're going to actually seriously harm (or worse) themselves on a horse they can barely hang on. Which can be a 1D horse or a 5D horse depending on the rider. I just meant that just because you only ride a 3D horse doesn't mean you're less of a horse person then someone who rides a 1D horse.
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I Am a Snake Killer
Posts: 1927
Location: Golden Gulf Coast of Texas | Yes I understand. There are plenty of 2D and 3D riders that are truly great horsemen but at the end of the day why should they be rewarded more than someone who clocks better than any one else that day? Just doesn't sound like a true "competition" if everyone wins the same amount. If you are "lucky" enough to fall in just the right place what makes you deserve the same? Why even go to a "race" if everyone is going to get the same money? I was at a race where the 4D horse just happened to fall all by itself in that division that day and won way more than the 1D horse. Granted it was a small race only 80 something horses but Im sorry that's just not right. |
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"Heck's Coming With Me"
Posts: 10797
Location: Kansas | I went to a few that were equal payout and liked it. If the 1D riders want more money, then the entry fees should be adjusted accordingly. Right?
Simple. |
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 Own It and Move On
Location: The edge of no where | SassyPirate - 2016-03-24 2:56 PM MS2011 - 2016-03-24 1:47 PM SassyPirate - 2016-03-24 2:38 PM RunNitroRun - 2016-03-24 1:32 PM We did it one year for an event we were trying to attract people too. The event was a Futurity/Derby with a Jackpot and typically brought in some pro level girls who were carrying their time over from the Futurity/Derby races. They weren't racing again and because the ladies basically took home the 1D and 2D payouts people got tired of coming because the payouts in the 3D and 4D really weren't worth coming. (These were women coming from far away locations (16+ hours) where there are winter jackpots and lots of year round events so the local competitors didn't feel the event was worth attending.) The year we made it equal we increased our attendance by 40% which made a huge difference and it brought people back to the event. It was great for attracting people and making decisions for the future of that event. A lot of people made the same comment that if it's equal what is the incentive to get better. I've witnessed a lot of 1D riders who can't ride worth crap but can hang on (sometimes barely) and run a really fast horse. I've also witnessed a lot of 3D riders who can't afford anything more get the most out of their 3D horse with perfect patterns. Saying that a person won't get better has more factors then what a clock and a cheque says. Just because there are equal payouts doesn't mean you're going to get a cheque so I don't understand why a person wouldn't attend (unless you make your living running barrels). I agree with this!! If you all pay the same entry fee, why not!! We always get way more entries when we do equal payout.
At the end of the day - the fastest horse deserves the most $$$$. You don't really ever 'win' anything but the 1D - you just happened to get lucky and your numbers hit. Luck doesn't deserve the reward being the best does. Ouch! That hurts a bit. Not everyone can afford $50,000 horses so they do what they can with what they have. Just my opinion!! And if it brings more entries to our jackpots then I am all for it.
I'm sorry - I'm not trying to hurt anyone, it's not a slam (I promise). I dang sure can't afford a 50k ride, (I've never gotten to ride one that was trained). It won't stop me from working my tail off with what I have to move up a D. There's some salty horses out there that didn't have big price tags - they run in the 1D because their riders have made the sacrifices to get them there. Those are the people that deserve the most reward. |
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 Queen Bee Cat Owner
Posts: 3629
Location: Way up North | I'm not for it or against it but to the ones saying they re against it because it does away with the drive to get better, the entire concept of divisional races would have already done that if that was true. The whole point of divisional races is to increase entries, allow people at all levels to compete and pontential recover some of their entries/expenses, and grow the sport, which clearly it has. If having equal payout races increases the number of entries which will also increase the payout for everyone why not? I don't think too many 1d riders are going to skip a race they can win $1500 at but it be equal payout to go to a progressive payout race and win $700; not very smart business. Also, I have yet to see anybody make a living winning the 3d and fewer yet that aren't trying their best to improve and move up. |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 557
Location: Kansas and loving it | If you don't mind then go, if you do, then don't. Easy. |
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 No Tune in a Bucket
Posts: 2935
Location: Texas | Frodo - 2016-03-24 3:26 PM I went to a few that were equal payout and liked it. If the 1D riders want more money, then the entry fees should be adjusted accordingly. Right?
Simple.
OR they could just enter a rodeo. Has anyone ever done the math to determine the percentage of 1D, 2D, 3D and 4D entries? If the largest percentage of entries are in the lower Ds, that may be the reason for the equal payout. |
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Location: Not Where I Want to Be | as long as everyone gets a trophy(metaphorically) then I'm happy.
Equal payouts for life |
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I Am a Snake Killer
Posts: 1927
Location: Golden Gulf Coast of Texas | 1DSoon - 2016-03-24 4:26 PM
 as long as everyone gets a trophy(metaphorically) then I'm happy.Â
Equal payouts for life
Hey!!! Why don't you start an Association like that!!l. You really might have something!!! Wouldn't even have to run your horse! |
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Nut Case Expert
Posts: 9305
Location: Tulsa, Ok | AllAroundRider - 2016-03-24 3:34 PM I'm not for it or against it but to the ones saying they re against it because it does away with the drive to get better, the entire concept of divisional races would have already done that if that was true. The whole point of divisional races is to increase entries, allow people at all levels to compete and pontential recover some of their entries/expenses, and grow the sport, which clearly it has. If having equal payout races increases the number of entries which will also increase the payout for everyone why not? I don't think too many 1d riders are going to skip a race they can win $1500 at but it be equal payout to go to a progressive payout race and win $700; not very smart business. Also, I have yet to see anybody make a living winning the 3d and fewer yet that aren't trying their best to improve and move up.
A lot of very valid points here. The 1D horses are definitely the true winners and deserve to be rewarded as such. On the other hand, if the lower Ds were not showing up, there would not be a whole lot of prize money available to the very small percentage of horses/girls that are the 1D. Also consider that participation is what attracts sponsors who put up prizes and added money. If the slow horse pool decides to stay home because of the payout, the sponsors start losing market exposure and eventually it will hit the 1D in the pocketbook. Imagine the payout at some of the big barrel races if just the 50 to 100 potential 1D horses entered instead of the 1000 or so in all divisions. |
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 Saint Stacey
| RocketPilot - 2016-03-24 3:13 PM
Frodo - 2016-03-24 3:26 PM I went to a few that were equal payout and liked it. Â If the 1D riders want more money, then the entry fees should be adjusted accordingly. Â Right?
Simple.Â
OR they could just enter a rodeo. Has anyone ever done the math to determine the percentage of 1D, 2D, 3D and 4D entries? If the largest percentage of entries are in the lower Ds, that may be the reason for the equal payout.Â
I loathe it when people say the 1D or pro girls need to go to a rodeo. But then again, I grew up when there were no D's. That also means I grew up in a generation where not everyone got a trophy or was picked to be on a team. We sucked it up and either got better or moved onto something else.
There are certain times of the year when it can be tough to rodeo. Right now everything is in FL, TX, CA. Pretty hard to simply pick up and enter a rodeo when you stick to mainly your circuit and the next circuit rodeo is in June in your area.
30 years ago you couldn't give away a horse as a barrel horse that clocked 2 seconds off. Now those horses sell for very good money. The 1D horses and riders are every bit as important as the 3D and 4D ones. All the threads about equal pay seem to forget that point. More and more people are hitting the 1D than ever before. THAT is what the D system is about. Sure, we all pay the same entry fee, gas, etc. But it is still a RACE. It isn't an entitlement because someone showed up so they deserve to win as much as the #1 person that ran a time that allowed someone 2 seconds slower to still get a check. How many other races that are equine related allow that? None. |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 823
Location: East Texas | AllAroundRider - 2016-03-24 3:34 PM
I'm not for it or against it but to the ones saying they re against it because it does away with the drive to get better, the entire concept of divisional races would have already done that if that was true. The whole point of divisional races is to increase entries, allow people at all levels to compete and pontential recover some of their entries/expenses, and grow the sport, which clearly it has. If having equal payout races increases the number of entries which will also increase the payout for everyone why not? I don't think too many 1d riders are going to skip a race they can win $1500 at but it be equal payout to go to a progressive payout race and win $700; not very smart business. Also, I have yet to see anybody make a living winning the 3d and fewer yet that aren't trying their best to improve and move up.
^^^This is the bottom line...... those against the equal payout races would rather win less money, but be able to say I won more money than you did???? Makes no sense.
Anyway, how about hitting a compromise? Pay the 1D a little more than the other D's and pay the other D's equal since they are a crap shoot anyway. |
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 Hugs to You
Posts: 7551
Location: In The Land of Cotton | While I am not a 1D rider, I don't expect equal payouts. However, Pac West is starting a new program at their April race in Ocala. A 3/4D slot race. They appreciate the fact that people of all stages come to their shows. So they started this. Hopefully, it will work and give them more success.
Me, really and truly, if you beat me fair and square, I don't care. You obviously had a better horse and rode better then I do. I just hate cheating.
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| AllAroundRider - 2016-03-24 3:34 PM I'm not for it or against it but to the ones saying they re against it because it does away with the drive to get better, the entire concept of divisional races would have already done that if that was true. The whole point of divisional races is to increase entries, allow people at all levels to compete and pontential recover some of their entries/expenses, and grow the sport, which clearly it has. If having equal payout races increases the number of entries which will also increase the payout for everyone why not? I don't think too many 1d riders are going to skip a race they can win $1500 at but it be equal payout to go to a progressive payout race and win $700; not very smart business. Also, I have yet to see anybody make a living winning the 3d and fewer yet that aren't trying their best to improve and move up.
I agree with this so much.
I know some 3D riders that have poured their heart, soul, tears, and blood into their horses weather it be training them to get them to that point, or just being satisfied that they can run in the 3D after rehabbing them from an injury. I don't think it's fair to say a 3D rider doesn't work as hard as a 1D rider....we don't know everyone's stories, their expenses, the amount the pay in lessons to work on getting from the 4D,to the 3D, and so on....
I too am not for or against the equal pay barrel race, but to say that anyone that doesn't run in the 1D doesn't work hard is ignorance.
At the end of they day I go to a barrel race to enjoy my horse and spend time with my friends. If the size check I win starts to become the main importance of why I'm going then I need to start evaluating why I am competing. . . But I also don't do this for a living so I'm just happy to win my fees back.
Edited by WrapN3MN 2016-03-25 8:50 AM
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| Honestly who cares.
Still a free country
If you don't like the equal division don't go and host your own
If you like the equal division and there are none around you host your own. |
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 Expert
Posts: 1857
| SKM - 2016-03-24 9:45 PM
RocketPilot - 2016-03-24 3:13 PM
Frodo - 2016-03-24 3:26 PM I went to a few that were equal payout and liked it. Â If the 1D riders want more money, then the entry fees should be adjusted accordingly. Â Right?
Simple.Â
OR they could just enter a rodeo. Has anyone ever done the math to determine the percentage of 1D, 2D, 3D and 4D entries? If the largest percentage of entries are in the lower Ds, that may be the reason for the equal payout.Â
I loathe it when people say the 1D or pro girls need to go to a rodeo. But then again, I grew up when there were no D's. That also means I grew up in a generation where not everyone got a trophy or was picked to be on a team. We sucked it up and either got better or moved onto something else.
There are certain times of the year when it can be tough to rodeo. Right now everything is in FL, TX, CA. Pretty hard to simply pick up and enter a rodeo when you stick to mainly your circuit and the next circuit rodeo is in June in your area.
30 years ago you couldn't give away a horse as a barrel horse that clocked 2 seconds off. Now those horses sell for very good money. The 1D horses and riders are every bit as important as the 3D and 4D ones. All the threads about equal pay seem to forget that point. More and more people are hitting the 1D than ever before. THAT is what the D system is about. Sure, we all pay the same entry fee, gas, etc. But it is still a RACE. It isn't an entitlement because someone showed up so they deserve to win as much as the #1 person that ran a time that allowed someone 2 seconds slower to still get a check. How many other races that are equine related allow that? None.
I remember when "jackpot" meant winner takes all. If you were lucky they paid the top 10. I was very young running at these races and I was always so proud of myself if I landed in the top 10 and got a check. I think if people still had to run in true "jackpots", no one would be b*tching about a progressive payout. |
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| I don't care about the payout, because I have an open horse and green ones. Being in the lower D's allows me to compete against myself.
As stated earlier, I love the fact that a nice slower horse can be worth decent money. Or the older fancy horse still has place other than the pasture once it is past it's prime. I'm very thankful for this because it was awful (back when...) you would spend years on a horse only to find out they couldn't quite cut the mustard and end up with nothing.
Edited by NFM 2016-03-25 10:02 AM
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 I Don't Brag
Posts: 6960
| RunNitroRun - 2016-03-24 2:32 PM
We did it one year for an event we were trying to attract people too. The event was a Futurity/Derby with a Jackpot and typically brought in some pro level girls who were carrying their time over from the Futurity/Derby races. They weren't racing again and because the ladies basically took home the 1D and 2D payouts people got tired of coming because the payouts in the 3D and 4D really weren't worth coming. (These were women coming from far away locations (16+ hours) where there are winter jackpots and lots of year round events so the local competitors didn't feel the event was worth attending.)
The year we made it equal we increased our attendance by 40% which made a huge difference and it brought people back to the event. It was great for attracting people and making decisions for the future of that event.
A lot of people made the same comment that if it's equal what is the incentive to get better. I've witnessed a lot of 1D riders who can't ride worth crap but can hang on (sometimes barely) and run a really fast horse. I've also witnessed a lot of 3D riders who can't afford anything more get the most out of their 3D horse with perfect patterns. Saying that a person won't get better has more factors then what a clock and a cheque says.
Just because there are equal payouts doesn't mean you're going to get a cheque so I don't understand why a person wouldn't attend (unless you make your living running barrels).
I have spent more years than most on this board have been alive, looking for, training and hauling to try and make that once in a lifetime horse. Why oh WHY would I waste my time and precious runs going to an equal payout?
Yeah, it's great for the 2,3,4,5 D riders and therefore the producers, but NOT for the true top competitors.
But then again, it also grinds my butt when I see someone touting themselves as a Champion (local, State, Regional, World) only to discover that they are champions of consistently being 2 seconds slower than the fastest horse.
Yes I am old, and that IMHO. |
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Expert
Posts: 1857
| NFM - 2016-03-25 9:55 AM
I don't care about the payout, because I have an open horse and green ones. Being in the lower D's allows me to compete against myself.
As stated earlier, I love the fact that a nice slower horse can be worth decent money. Or the older fancy horse still has place other than the pasture once it is past it's prime. I'm very thankful for this because it was awful (back when...) you would spend years on a horse only to find out they couldn't quite cut the mustard and end up with nothing.
when they came up with the D's, they did a great thing for the barrel horse market... |
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 Owner of a ratting catting machine
Posts: 2258
| Honestly, I think straight payout is awesome with really big races (750+ running). In numbers like these, honestly, the 3D-5D is way more competitive than the 1D, as far as numbers in each D. The chances of winning a check in the slower Ds is what makes it such a "jackpot!" Why shouldn't the slower Ds have some incentive to keep coming? Why should I even bothering entering my young horse and hassling through a three day race with him if I don't have a chance to be reciprocated? ANHA is really successful and it's straight pay out. It has a great pay out.
I don't feel straight payout is a good option for small races though, just because of the truly reduced incentive.
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