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  That's White "Man" to You
Posts: 5515
 
| My vet breeds all of his mares as 2 year olds and then rides them. He just had an awesome MP Jet To The Sun filly out of a 3 yo daughter of A Streak Of Fling (was 2 when he bred her). He thinks it gives them a little more time to physically develope before riding. Most mares handle pregnancy fine until the last 60 days or so...which in this case happens as a 3 year old. |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1165
  
Location: California | I bought my paint mare at an auction for $75 in 2008. She had turned 2yrs old 2 days before the auction. She foaled a month later, unfortunately he did not make it. My mare was very malnourished, I have no clue how she managed to make it threw all that. |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 383
| omg! that's crazy!!!! poor baby- this makes me sick- I can't even imagine breeding a mare before she was at least 7-8 and I would only do it then if she was unable to compete- horses in the first year are equal to 10 yrs every year after that it goes 2 years so a 2 year old horse is equal to a 12 year old girl---IMO there is no way anybody should be breeding a PHILLY - the horse world just keeps getting crazier and crazier, I'm sorry for my vent I know it wasn't your fault and thank God you rescued her cuz she sure didn't get no breaks on the start of her life |
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 Roan Wonder
Location: SW MO | I wish people wouldn't just breed horses. They need to look at each horse indivdually. Is the mare mature enough to breed? Horses just like people all mature at different rates. Then look at stallion you breed your first time mares to. What kind of foals do they throw? We have 2 stallion we never breed our first time mares to because they throw big, big boned foals. Also look at the pedigrees do they match up? People should have a plan & program ( even if they just have 1 mare) before they start breeding. And I could shout this at the top of my lungs Before you get a stallion have a safe place to keep it and learn how to handle them. Accidents happen often even in the best laid plans, but try everything you can to prevent them. |
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 Witty Enough
Posts: 2954
Location: CTX | crossspur - 2016-05-10 10:01 AM I wish people wouldn't just breed horses. They need to look at each horse indivdually. Is the mare mature enough to breed? Horses just like people all mature at different rates. Then look at stallion you breed your first time mares to. What kind of foals do they throw? We have 2 stallion we never breed our first time mares to because they throw big, big boned foals. Also look at the pedigrees do they match up? People should have a plan & program ( even if they just have 1 mare) before they start breeding. And I could shout this at the top of my lungs Before you get a stallion have a safe place to keep it and learn how to handle them. Accidents happen often even in the best laid plans, but try everything you can to prevent them.
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 Expert
Posts: 4121
Location: SE Louisiana | crossspur - 2016-05-10 10:01 AM
I wish people wouldn't just breed horses. They need to look at each horse indivdually. Is the mare mature enough to breed? Horses just like people all mature at different rates. Then look at stallion you breed your first time mares to. What kind of foals do they throw? We have 2 stallion we never breed our first time mares to because they throw big, big boned foals. Also look at the pedigrees do they match up? People should have a plan & program ( even if they just have 1 mare) before they start breeding. And I could shout this at the top of my lungs Before you get a stallion have a safe place to keep it and learn how to handle them. Accidents happen often even in the best laid plans, but try everything you can to prevent them.  Â
I do agree that the conformation enhancements that you want to get between the two should be the overriding factors. But I thought the uterus of the mare restricted the foal from getting to a dangerous size. In a filly that has had an injury, I'd be looking at whether the extra weight of the foal would start causing problems as she got close to term. I've always heard that once bred, a mare stops growing taller and starts growing wider... and yes, Stallions have a two track mind. Grass and a$$.... Both are always better on the other side of the fence.
Edited by komet. 2016-05-10 1:37 PM
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 851
Location: West Texas | I have a little different take on this. I would find it hard to determine whether a mare was good enough or I wanted to breed her until she was at least 4, much less the physical aspect. I am not shaming anyone, but there is no good argument that can be made against the fact that physical stresses of growing a baby and your own body, at the same time, are not an ideal situation.
I would prefer not to breed a mare until they were probably 5 and I could make a good decision for all involved.
Edited by Tdove 2016-05-10 1:34 PM
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Roan Wonder
Location: SW MO | komet. - 2016-05-10 12:54 PM crossspur - 2016-05-10 10:01 AM I wish people wouldn't just breed horses. They need to look at each horse indivdually. Is the mare mature enough to breed? Horses just like people all mature at different rates. Then look at stallion you breed your first time mares to. What kind of foals do they throw? We have 2 stallion we never breed our first time mares to because they throw big, big boned foals. Also look at the pedigrees do they match up? People should have a plan & program ( even if they just have 1 mare) before they start breeding. And I could shout this at the top of my lungs Before you get a stallion have a safe place to keep it and learn how to handle them. Accidents happen often even in the best laid plans, but try everything you can to prevent them. I do agree that the conformation enhancements that you want to get between the two should be the overriding factors. But I thought the uterus of the mare restricted the foal from getting to a dangerous size. In a filly that has had an injury, I'd be looking at whether the extra weight of the foal would start causing problems as she got close to term. I've always heard that once bred, a mare stops growing taller and starts growing wider... and yes, Stallions have a two track mind. Grass and a$$.... Both are always better on the other side of the fence.
Not putting you down at all Komet, but I don't know where the idea that uterus of the mare restricted the foal from getting to a dangerous size. People who breed cattle use heifer bulls. Bulls that produce low birth weight calves so that heifers don't have calving issues. Horses are livestock. A stallion that throws big foals especially large boned foals will do that no matter the mare. Lots of mare die from foaling issues. When a mare has foaling issues they have to be dealt with very quickly there often isn’t time for a vet to get there.Over feeding can also lead to foals being to big, but genetics play a big role in it. People often think if a maiden mare is large she won’t have foaling issues but a large mare will often have a very large foal. People need to think about these things when breeding maiden mares no matter their age.
Cows, goats, pigs even dogs can have babies to large to deliver without problems |
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Expert
Posts: 4121
Location: SE Louisiana | crossspur - 2016-05-10 1:53 PM
komet. - 2016-05-10 12:54 PM crossspur - 2016-05-10 10:01 AM I wish people wouldn't just breed horses. They need to look at each horse indivdually. Is the mare mature enough to breed? Horses just like people all mature at different rates. Then look at stallion you breed your first time mares to. What kind of foals do they throw? We have 2 stallion we never breed our first time mares to because they throw big, big boned foals. Also look at the pedigrees do they match up? People should have a plan & program ( even if they just have 1 mare) before they start breeding. And I could shout this at the top of my lungs Before you get a stallion have a safe place to keep it and learn how to handle them. Accidents happen often even in the best laid plans, but try everything you can to prevent them.   I do agree that the conformation enhancements that you want to get between the two should be the overriding factors. But I thought the uterus of the mare restricted the foal from getting to a dangerous size. In a filly that has had an injury, I'd be looking at whether the extra weight of the foal would start causing problems as she got close to term. I've always heard that once bred, a mare stops growing taller and starts growing wider... and yes, Stallions have a two track mind. Grass and a$$.... Both are always better on the other side of the fence.
Not putting you down at all Komet, but I don't know where the idea that uterus of the mare restricted the foal from getting to a dangerous size. People who breed cattle use heifer bulls. Bulls that produce low birth weight calves so that heifers don't have calving issues. Horses are livestock. A stallion that throws big foals especially large boned foals will do that no matter the mare. Lots of mare die from foaling issues. When a mare has foaling issues they have to be dealt with very quickly there often isn’t time for a vet to get there. Over feeding can also lead to foals being to big, but genetics play a big role in it. People often think if a maiden mare is large she won’t have foaling issues but a large mare will often have a very large foal. People need to think about these things when breeding maiden mares no matter their age.
Cows, goats, pigs even dogs can have babies to large to deliver without problems
I fully agree any other animal has to worry about size if the male is much larger. I also understand mares die from problems all the time. But a mare has an explosive birth unlike anything else I know of and that's why she can't remain in labor for very long, like if a leg/s or a head is back or it comes breach. I've heard about lots of examples of full size saddle stallions bred to pony mares that produce foals not larger or not much larger than a pony stallion would have produced. Certainly they wind up bigger though. You would know more about this than I do of course because your place produces more foals every year than I ever dealt with. Maybe I just misunderstood. |
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Roan Wonder
Location: SW MO | komet. - 2016-05-10 2:09 PM crossspur - 2016-05-10 1:53 PM komet. - 2016-05-10 12:54 PM crossspur - 2016-05-10 10:01 AM I wish people wouldn't just breed horses. They need to look at each horse indivdually. Is the mare mature enough to breed? Horses just like people all mature at different rates. Then look at stallion you breed your first time mares to. What kind of foals do they throw? We have 2 stallion we never breed our first time mares to because they throw big, big boned foals. Also look at the pedigrees do they match up? People should have a plan & program ( even if they just have 1 mare) before they start breeding. And I could shout this at the top of my lungs Before you get a stallion have a safe place to keep it and learn how to handle them. Accidents happen often even in the best laid plans, but try everything you can to prevent them. I do agree that the conformation enhancements that you want to get between the two should be the overriding factors. But I thought the uterus of the mare restricted the foal from getting to a dangerous size. In a filly that has had an injury, I'd be looking at whether the extra weight of the foal would start causing problems as she got close to term. I've always heard that once bred, a mare stops growing taller and starts growing wider... and yes, Stallions have a two track mind. Grass and a$$.... Both are always better on the other side of the fence. Not putting you down at all Komet, but I don't know where the idea that uterus of the mare restricted the foal from getting to a dangerous size. People who breed cattle use heifer bulls. Bulls that produce low birth weight calves so that heifers don't have calving issues. Horses are livestock. A stallion that throws big foals especially large boned foals will do that no matter the mare. Lots of mare die from foaling issues. When a mare has foaling issues they have to be dealt with very quickly there often isn’t time for a vet to get there.
Over feeding can also lead to foals being to big, but genetics play a big role in it. People often think if a maiden mare is large she won’t have foaling issues but a large mare will often have a very large foal. People need to think about these things when breeding maiden mares no matter their age.
Cows, goats, pigs even dogs can have babies to large to deliver without problems
I fully agree any other animal has to worry about size if the male is much larger. I also understand mares die from problems all the time. But a mare has an explosive birth unlike anything else I know of and that's why she can't remain in labor for very long, like if a leg/s or a head is back or it comes breach. I've heard about lots of examples of full size saddle stallions bred to pony mares that produce foals not larger or not much larger than a pony stallion would have produced. Certainly they wind up bigger though. You would know more about this than I do of course because your place produces more foals every year than I ever dealt with. Maybe I just misunderstood.
No some people do believe that mares control the size of thier foals, but it is an old wives tale. Like all things often it does work out but it also sometimes devastating results. We know a man that has raised draft horses for years and he says they have a lot more foaling problem that standard breed horses |
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Expert
Posts: 4766
Location: Bandera, TX | We have, a small 2yr cutting bred horse to AQHA World Champion Superhorse LM. We got the most beautiful doll baby from that breeding. She was required to work, we had 600 head of momma cows and a time line to keep her on her training track. The baby was sold for 6 figures and purchased back when we realized what we let go of. |
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 Expert
Posts: 1889
Location: Texas | The youngest I've bred is a 3-year-old who is a good size filly. My vet prefers to wait until they are at least 4. Our filly would have gone to the track if she hadn't nearly cut a hoof off and is now broodmare sound. This is her new job, and she is a doting mother just like her own momma. |
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 Best of the Badlands
Location: You never know where I will show up...... | I have bred a 3 year old. She was a daughter of DTF I bought off the track, had run AAA. She had a small fracture in a bone in her knee and needed some time off to heal. I bred her, she foaled out fine, and the fall of her 4 year old year I weaned the filly off of her and put her into barrel training. She went on to win one barrel futurity and make the short go and place in several go rounds of several others, as a 5 year old. |
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 Queen Boobie 2
Posts: 7521
| Here is an article that cites a study at Colorado State and one in South Africa as well as a couple papers on the subject of fetal size at birth being largely determined by the mare's capacity. Not really an old wive's tale
http://www.thehorse.com/articles/10257/fetal-development-and-foal-g...
Edited by bennie1 2016-05-11 12:26 PM
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Expert
Posts: 4121
Location: SE Louisiana | bennie1 - 2016-05-11 12:25 PM
Here is an article that cites a study at Colorado State and one in South Africa as well as a couple papers on the subject of fetal size at birth being largely determined by the mare's capacity. Not really an old wive's tale
http://www.thehorse.com/articles/10257/fetal-development-and-foal-g...
Wow.... It's pretty darn risky just being born a horse.   |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 324
| komet. - 2016-05-11 1:53 PM bennie1 - 2016-05-11 12:25 PM Here is an article that cites a study at Colorado State and one in South Africa as well as a couple papers on the subject of fetal size at birth being largely determined by the mare's capacity. Not really an old wive's tale http://www.thehorse.com/articles/10257/fetal-development-and-foal-g... Wow.... It's pretty darn risky just being born a horse.
"If half of the things that could go wrong with horses, did go wrong, there would be very few horses in the world."
Or something along those lines... Anyways I like it! |
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 Champ
Posts: 19623
Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm | Mighty Broke - 2016-05-09 1:39 PM
OhMax - 2016-05-09 12:47 PM I would consider AI over live cover and a smaller stud if she's not all that big, but I think you'd be okay.
Size of the mature stud does not play into the size of the newborn foal.
It's not necessarily the size of the stallion that is a factor in how large the foals are. My stallion is 15.1. I've noticed if I feed the mare too well in the last trimester (2 flakes of alfalfa instead of 1, 2 # of grain instead of 1) the foals will be borderline too large. Some of them have been really difficult foalings because the foal is large. This is why I try my best to be present at all births.
I wish there was more statistical data on foal size. I know if you are a cattle breeder, you want to breed heifers to a bull that sires small birth weight calves.
Edited by OregonBR 2016-05-13 3:36 PM
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Champ
Posts: 19623
Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm | shilohorse - 2016-05-09 9:25 PM
omg! that's crazy!!!! poor baby- this makes me sick- I can't even imagine breeding a mare before she was at least 7-8 and I would only do it then if she was unable to compete- horses in the first year are equal to 10 yrs every year after that it goes 2 years so a 2 year old horse is equal to a 12 year old girl---IMO there is no way anybody should be breeding a PHILLY - the horse world just keeps getting crazier and crazier, I'm sorry for my vent I know it wasn't your fault and thank God you rescued her cuz she sure didn't get no breaks on the start of her life
Calm down. It's filly, not philly.
Breeding females as 2 year olds is not done a lot anymore. I think it happened a LOT more 50 or more years ago.
To the OP. There was a study done I read quite a while back that showed the optimal age to breed a filly is 3. Not 5, 6, 7 or older. They have a longer and more productive broodmare life when starting to breed at age 3. |
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Champ
Posts: 19623
Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm | crossspur - 2016-05-10 8:01 AM
I wish people wouldn't just breed horses. They need to look at each horse indivdually. Is the mare mature enough to breed? Horses just like people all mature at different rates. Then look at stallion you breed your first time mares to. What kind of foals do they throw? We have 2 stallion we never breed our first time mares to because they throw big, big boned foals. Also look at the pedigrees do they match up? People should have a plan & program ( even if they just have 1 mare) before they start breeding. And I could shout this at the top of my lungs Before you get a stallion have a safe place to keep it and learn how to handle them. Accidents happen often even in the best laid plans, but try everything you can to prevent them.  Â
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 Undercover Amish Mafia Member
Posts: 9991
Location: Kansas | shilohorse - 2016-05-09 11:25 PM omg! that's crazy!!!! poor baby- this makes me sick- I can't even imagine breeding a mare before she was at least 7-8 and I would only do it then if she was unable to compete- horses in the first year are equal to 10 yrs every year after that it goes 2 years so a 2 year old horse is equal to a 12 year old girl---IMO there is no way anybody should be breeding a PHILLY - the horse world just keeps getting crazier and crazier, I'm sorry for my vent I know it wasn't your fault and thank God you rescued her cuz she sure didn't get no breaks on the start of her life
"FILLY" |
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