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Location: Displaced Iowegian | komet. - 2016-05-31 4:21 PM Bear - 2016-05-31 3:39 PM komet. - 2016-05-31 3:10 PM Bear - 2016-05-31 2:48 PM trickster j - 2016-05-31 12:40 PM Bear - 2016-05-31 9:44 AM How can I become a certified herbalist? What's the process? What guarantee do I have, as a prospective consumer of herbs, that the seller of these products is an "expert"? Basically Bear, it's a buyer beware market- you would actually have to put some effort into educating yourself first in order to know if you are going to get a qualified expert or a liar. If you choose to hire a certifed expert herbalist who doesn't know bout herbal remedies that would be your own fault. The problem, as I see it, is people are trying to apply standards that attempt to imply a certain level of excellence and a sound fund of scientific knowledge, to an industry that is largely devoid of those principles. I'm speaking of naturopathic and alternative remedies. Now, having said that, I emphasize the qualifier "largely", because there are several exceptions. The key thing in traditional medicine is to remain open to considering naturopathic/alternative remedies and therapies, without sacrificing sound, objective scientific principles and.....standards. We call this "integrative" medicine. In medicine, a student typically must graduate from college and take a standardized exam prior to consideration for acceptance into medical school. He/she must have letters of recommendation, and a high GPA before being considered for an interview. Once accepted, a student must pass all courses/rotations before graduation, 4 years later. Before being allowed to independently practice medicine, a doctor must pass 3 sets of national examinations over the course of his/her education and training. Then we have 3-6 years of residency training where you basically have no life outside of a hospital, and you learn the meaning of sleep deprivation. On the completion of residency, there is a final process of board certification. That involves a written exam, followed by an oral exam, IF you have passed the written exam. There now is a process of "recertification" that requires you to pass another exam, usually every 10 years. In addition to all of this, each state has various requirements for so many hours of continuing medical education. Some additional requirements exist in certain states, like Texas, where you have to take a course in medical jurisprudence. To become "certified" in things like vibrating plates, herbs, lasers, and magnets doesn't mean anything to me. It might mean you have to pass a rigorous training followed by some standard exam, or it might mean the entrepreneur who taught you how to use a device for a fee or "tuition" simply issued a certificate, on the completion of a course. Your about to step on some toes here....My mother's dad was a Naprapath..Both her parents were licensed but only her dad practiced. In the mid 1950 Grandma was diagnosed with cancer. The best hospitals in the city of Chicago said there was no hope. Grandpa Nelson demanded they send her home with him. He treated her with Naprapathy and she outlived in him into the 90s. What you want is a gas chromatopher so you can be sure of what you are selling. Chiropractic medicine did not cure her cancer, Komet. Just because she lived longer than expected and she happened to receive chiropractic care doesn't mean the chiropractic medicine did anything for her cancer. This is the kind of reasoning that naturopaths depend on. Chiropractic medicine does not cure cancer. It might make some peop,e feel better, but it has never cured cancer, nor has it extended life in cancer patients. I respectively disagree sir... If you can stop the pain, you can allow the body to focus on other problems and heal itself..... I did not say he was a Chiropractor... They employ drugs. Naprapathy does not. But he included something I don 't know if others do. Because I never attended another one.... People here... SOME people here, grew up with true story-tellers.... Rule number one for a good storyteller is they have to have a relaxing voice.... Anyone that has ever watched Christmas shows like 'Frosty The Snowman' or 'Rudolph the Red Nosed Reindeer' know the voice of a man named Burl Ives.... You, Scott, coming from where you do, know another relaxing voice... Garrison Keillor and the news from Lake Wobegon My grandfather is the only other person I ever met that had a voice like this. After he got done with the treatment, he would sit down and start to talk about whatever was on his mind.... Later.. I would wake up in the room alone.... I would be so relaxed after the treatment, he could talk me to sleep.... So... Once again we must agree to disagree..... Stopping the pain allows the body to focus on what is CAUSING the pain...
Additionally, I would seriously question the diagnosis of cancer from the very unreliable tests used in the 50's.
Edited by NJJ 2016-05-31 4:59 PM
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 Expert
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Location: SE Louisiana | Bear - 2016-05-31 4:51 PM
komet. - 2016-05-31 4:21 PM
Bear - 2016-05-31 3:39 PM
komet. - 2016-05-31 3:10 PM
Bear - 2016-05-31 2:48 PM
trickster j - 2016-05-31 12:40 PM
Bear - 2016-05-31 9:44 AM How can I become a certified herbalist? What's the process? What guarantee do I have, as a prospective consumer of herbs, that the seller of these products is an "expert"?
Basically Bear, it's a buyer beware market- you would actually have to put some effort into educating yourself first in order to know if you are going to get a qualified expert or a liar. If you choose to hire a certifed expert herbalist who doesn't know bout herbal remedies that would be your own fault.
The problem, as I see it, is people are trying to apply standards that attempt to imply a certain level of excellence and a sound fund of scientific knowledge, to an industry that is largely devoid of those principles. I'm speaking of naturopathic and alternative remedies.
Now, having said that, I emphasize the qualifier "largely", because there are several exceptions. The key thing in traditional medicine is to remain open to considering naturopathic/alternative remedies and therapies, without sacrificing sound, objective scientific principles and.....standards. We call this "integrative" medicine. In medicine, a student typically must graduate from college and take a standardized exam prior to consideration for acceptance into medical school. He/she must have letters of recommendation, and a high GPA before being considered for an interview. Once accepted, a student must pass all courses/rotations before graduation, 4 years later. Before being allowed to independently practice medicine, a doctor must pass 3 sets of national examinations over the course of his/her education and training. Then we have 3-6 years of residency training where you basically have no life outside of a hospital, and you learn the meaning of sleep deprivation. On the completion of residency, there is a final process of board certification. That involves a written exam, followed by an oral exam, IF you have passed the written exam. There now is a process of "recertification" that requires you to pass another exam, usually every 10 years. In addition to all of this, each state has various requirements for so many hours of continuing medical education. Some additional requirements exist in certain states, like Texas, where you have to take a course in medical jurisprudence.
To become "certified" in things like vibrating plates, herbs, lasers, and magnets doesn't mean anything to me. It might mean you have to pass a rigorous training followed by some standard exam, or it might mean the entrepreneur who taught you how to use a device for a fee or "tuition" simply issued a certificate, on the completion of a course.
Your about to step on some toes here....My mother's dad was a Naprapath..Both her parents were licensed but only her dad practiced. In the mid 1950 Grandma was diagnosed with cancer. The best hospitals in the city of Chicago said there was no hope. Grandpa Nelson demanded they send her home with him. He treated her with Naprapathy and she outlived in him into the 90s. What you want is a gas chromatopher so you can be sure of what you are selling.
Chiropractic medicine did not cure her cancer, Komet. Just because she lived longer than expected and she happened to receive chiropractic care doesn't mean the chiropractic medicine did anything for her cancer. This is the kind of reasoning that naturopaths depend on. Chiropractic medicine does not cure cancer. It might make some peop,e feel better, but it has never cured cancer, nor has it extended life in cancer patients.
I respectively disagree sir... If you can stop the pain, you can allow the body to focus on other problems and heal itself..... I did not say he was a Chiropractor... They employ drugs. Naprapathy does not. But he included something I don 't know if others do. Because I never attended another one....
People here... SOME people here, grew up with true story-tellers.... Rule number one for a good storyteller is they have to have a relaxing voice.... Anyone that has ever watched Christmas shows like 'Frosty The Snowman' or 'Rudolph the Red Nosed Reindeer' know the voice of a man named Burl Ives....
You, Scott, coming from where you do, know another relaxing voice... Garrison Keillor and the news from Lake Wobegon
My grandfather is the only other person I ever met that had a voice like this. After he got done with the treatment, he would sit down and start to talk about whatever was on his mind.... Later.. I would wake up in the room alone.... I would be so relaxed after the treatment, he could talk me to sleep....
So... Once again we must agree to disagree..... Stopping the pain allows the body to focus on what is CAUSING the pain...
Oh how I honestly wish this were true.
I've seen some miracles, but I can't say I can explain them. That would be dishonest on my part, and arrogant. If you choose to believe that a soothing voice saved someone from cancer, good for you.
This is the difference between a man of science and a man of faith.. I have been witness to miracles... So have you.. The difference is I acknowledge them... and you are still hesitant... Not to worry Doc.. Neva will bring you around... (dogs are good at that)  | |
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Location: SE Louisiana | NJJ - 2016-05-31 4:58 PM
komet. - 2016-05-31 4:21 PM Bear - 2016-05-31 3:39 PM komet. - 2016-05-31 3:10 PM Bear - 2016-05-31 2:48 PM trickster j - 2016-05-31 12:40 PM Bear - 2016-05-31 9:44 AM How can I become a certified herbalist? What's the process? What guarantee do I have, as a prospective consumer of herbs, that the seller of these products is an "expert"? Basically Bear, it's a buyer beware market- you would actually have to put some effort into educating yourself first in order to know if you are going to get a qualified expert or a liar. If you choose to hire a certifed expert herbalist who doesn't know bout herbal remedies that would be your own fault. The problem, as I see it, is people are trying to apply standards that attempt to imply a certain level of excellence and a sound fund of scientific knowledge, to an industry that is largely devoid of those principles. I'm speaking of naturopathic and alternative remedies. Now, having said that, I emphasize the qualifier "largely", because there are several exceptions. The key thing in traditional medicine is to remain open to considering naturopathic/alternative remedies and therapies, without sacrificing sound, objective scientific principles and.....standards. We call this "integrative" medicine. In medicine, a student typically must graduate from college and take a standardized exam prior to consideration for acceptance into medical school. He/she must have letters of recommendation, and a high GPA before being considered for an interview. Once accepted, a student must pass all courses/rotations before graduation, 4 years later. Before being allowed to independently practice medicine, a doctor must pass 3 sets of national examinations over the course of his/her education and training. Then we have 3-6 years of residency training where you basically have no life outside of a hospital, and you learn the meaning of sleep deprivation. On the completion of residency, there is a final process of board certification. That involves a written exam, followed by an oral exam, IF you have passed the written exam. There now is a process of "recertification" that requires you to pass another exam, usually every 10 years. In addition to all of this, each state has various requirements for so many hours of continuing medical education. Some additional requirements exist in certain states, like Texas, where you have to take a course in medical jurisprudence. To become "certified" in things like vibrating plates, herbs, lasers, and magnets doesn't mean anything to me. It might mean you have to pass a rigorous training followed by some standard exam, or it might mean the entrepreneur who taught you how to use a device for a fee or "tuition" simply issued a certificate, on the completion of a course. Your about to step on some toes here....My mother's dad was a Naprapath..Both her parents were licensed but only her dad practiced. In the mid 1950 Grandma was diagnosed with cancer. The best hospitals in the city of Chicago said there was no hope. Grandpa Nelson demanded they send her home with him. He treated her with Naprapathy and she outlived in him into the 90s. What you want is a gas chromatopher so you can be sure of what you are selling. Chiropractic medicine did not cure her cancer, Komet. Just because she lived longer than expected and she happened to receive chiropractic care doesn't mean the chiropractic medicine did anything for her cancer. This is the kind of reasoning that naturopaths depend on. Chiropractic medicine does not cure cancer. It might make some peop,e feel better, but it has never cured cancer, nor has it extended life in cancer patients. I respectively disagree sir... If you can stop the pain, you can allow the body to focus on other problems and heal itself..... I did not say he was a Chiropractor... They employ drugs. Naprapathy does not. But he included something I don 't know if others do. Because I never attended another one.... People here... SOME people here, grew up with true story-tellers.... Rule number one for a good storyteller is they have to have a relaxing voice.... Anyone that has ever watched Christmas shows like 'Frosty The Snowman' or 'Rudolph the Red Nosed Reindeer' know the voice of a man named Burl Ives.... You, Scott, coming from where you do, know another relaxing voice... Garrison Keillor and the news from Lake Wobegon My grandfather is the only other person I ever met that had a voice like this. After he got done with the treatment, he would sit down and start to talk about whatever was on his mind.... Later.. I would wake up in the room alone.... I would be so relaxed after the treatment, he could talk me to sleep.... So... Once again we must agree to disagree..... Stopping the pain allows the body to focus on what is CAUSING the pain...
Additionally, I would seriously question the diagnosis of cancer from the very unreliable tests used in the 50's.
From the best hospitals in the city of Chicago??? Because my grandparents were not poor....
I don't know how it is now... But I have been to more than one chiropractor that prescribed painkillers to me... I admit I don't know what else they were licensed for.... But I got hurt putting shoes on a horse one day and it was a full year before I could walk again.... I crawled from the bed to the toilet to the kitchen and back again... It was a 20 minute trip to go 75 feet out to the mailbox and back... I know about pain... I never gave up... That's why I walk today... I overcame addiction to prescribed painkillers... and several other recreational drugs... You don't EVEN want to go there there with me.... | |
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 BHW Resident Surgeon
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Location: Bastrop, Texas | First of all, Komet, I acknowledged that I have seen a few miracles.
Secondly, where does it say that you cannot be both a man of science and a man of faith? I happen to be both, and I know many just like me. Are you questioning that, or are you arguing for the sake of being argumentative? | |
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Location: SE Louisiana | Bear - 2016-05-31 5:17 PM
First of all, Komet, I acknowledged that I have seen a few miracles.
Secondly, where does it say that you cannot be both a man of science and a man of faith? I happen to be both, and I know many just like me. Are you questioning that, or are you arguing for the sake of being argumentative?
Well Doc... You know I love to argue.. (I got that from my dad).. So... Why do you ask??? 
I honestly didn't believe that you believed in miracles... It's nice to know that you do sir..
Edited by komet. 2016-05-31 5:23 PM
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Posts: 4121
Location: SE Louisiana | komet. - 2016-05-31 5:22 PM
Bear - 2016-05-31 5:17 PM
First of all, Komet, I acknowledged that I have seen a few miracles.
Secondly, where does it say that you cannot be both a man of science and a man of faith? I happen to be both, and I know many just like me. Are you questioning that, or are you arguing for the sake of being argumentative?
Well Doc... You know I love to argue.. (I got that from my dad ).. So... Why do you ask???
I honestly didn't believe that you believed in miracles... It's nice to know that you do sir..
BUT!!!! It's not very often that you find someone that believes in both.... Usually it's one or the other... You must have a group.... I'd like to be introduced to them.. | |
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Posts: 5417
| I personally still think that Dr. Ramey's opinion of certified experts is ridiculous, as are the other articles he wrote on his web page- and I could argue that point for a lengthy period of time-  | |
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25351
Location: Bastrop, Texas | I've always liked Dr Ramey. I think he is probably very well trained and conscientious. He's no nonsense and seems very sound. His CV is pretty impressive, and it includes textbooks on "alternative veterinary medicine". He believes in "evidence-based" veterinary medicine, and I find that refreshing. A lot of promoters of quackery and gimmicks hate the guy....for reasons that should be obvious.
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Location: Displaced Iowegian | Bear - 2016-05-31 6:34 PM I've always liked Dr Ramey. I think he is probably very well trained and conscientious. He's no nonsense and seems very sound. His CV is pretty impressive, and it includes textbooks on "alternative veterinary medicine". He believes in "evidence-based" veterinary medicine, and I find that refreshing. A lot of promoters of quackery and gimmicks hate the guy....for reasons that should be obvious.
^^^^ THIS | |
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25351
Location: Bastrop, Texas | The honest-to-God reason why I pay so much attention to so-called alternative veterinary medicine on this forum is because I know a lot of people are trying to own horses and compete on them, sometimes at a very high level, often times on a pretty narrow budget. Some aren't necessarily scientifically inclined or well educated in biological sciences. They are particularly vulnerable to marketing tactics and quackery. Sometimes all they really have to go by is the opinions of other participants on these threads, and I think a lot of people spend a lot of hard earned money on junk. I hate to see that, which is why I jump in the fray and at least try to make some sense of things. I don't have a thing to gain, one way or the other. That's not always the case on the other side of these debates.
Edited by Bear 2016-05-31 7:28 PM
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Too busy outside!
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| He appears narrow-minded, short-sighted, and uneducated in alternative veterinary medicines..... even the most obviously beneficial ones like chiropractic, acupuncture and massage. You'd have to review his website to see how he states all of this in his articles.
I don't like quackery and gimmicks either- for obvious reasons. | |
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Too busy outside!
Posts: 5417
| Bear - 2016-05-31 5:26 PM The honest-to-God reason why I pay so much attention to so-called alternative veterinary medicine on this forum is because I know a lot of people are trying to own horses and compete on them, sometimes at a very high level, often times on a pretty narrow budget. Some aren't necessarily scientifically inclined or well educated in biological sciences. They are particularly vulnerable to marketing tactics and quackery. Sometimes all they really have to go by is the opinions of other participants on these threads, and I think a lot of people spend a lot of hard earned money on junk. I hate to see that, which is why I jump in the fray and at least try to make some sense of things. I don't have a thing to gain, one way or the other. That's not always the case on the other side of these debates. I see the same issues Bear, I've been in the business for almost 20 years- just yesterday I pulled a girl away from a dealer who was about to sell her a Therascope 360 for $30,000. I deal with these things every day. We can't save them all, but we can try.
eta: I don't want you to think by my saying this that I am agreeing with your convictions as they relate to alternative medicines and certifications- because I do not.
Edited by trickster j 2016-05-31 7:39 PM
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BHW Resident Surgeon
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Location: Bastrop, Texas | trickster j - 2016-05-31 7:30 PM
He appears narrow-minded, short-sighted, and uneducated in alternative veterinary medicines..... even the most obviously beneficial ones like chiropractic, acupuncture and massage. You'd have to review his website to see how he states all of this in his articles.
I don't like quackery and gimmicks either- for obvious reasons.
Well, because he doesn't conform to your belief system doesn't make him "narrow-minded" in my book. That's a popular cliche'/retort in the alternative medicine community. | |
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Too busy outside!
Posts: 5417
| Bear - 2016-05-31 5:47 PM trickster j - 2016-05-31 7:30 PM He appears narrow-minded, short-sighted, and uneducated in alternative veterinary medicines..... even the most obviously beneficial ones like chiropractic, acupuncture and massage. You'd have to review his website to see how he states all of this in his articles.
I don't like quackery and gimmicks either- for obvious reasons. Well, because he doesn't conform to your belief system doesn't make him "narrow-minded" in my book. That's a popular cliche'/retort in the alternative medicine community.
It's very obvious you started this thread to take a cheap poke at those of us who are certified in our alternative health related modalities.
eta: were you really trying to "save" your BB's here from quackery and gimmicks by starting this post? What besides your own opinion qualifies you to even know the difference between them and legit therapies? Did you attend a professional course to educate yourself on all aspects of these treatments? Or do you just choose to share your unprofessional opinion to everyone whenever you feel particularly inclined to do so? I may be completely wrong here, but I take you as the type of internet "expert" who spends hours scouring the internet for articles that support your most dominant theory-
Edited by trickster j 2016-05-31 8:11 PM
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25351
Location: Bastrop, Texas | trickster j - 2016-05-31 7:55 PM
Bear - 2016-05-31 5:47 PM trickster j - 2016-05-31 7:30 PM He appears narrow-minded, short-sighted, and uneducated in alternative veterinary medicines..... even the most obviously beneficial ones like chiropractic, acupuncture and massage. You'd have to review his website to see how he states all of this in his articles.
I don't like quackery and gimmicks either- for obvious reasons. Well, because he doesn't conform to your belief system doesn't make him "narrow-minded" in my book. That's a popular cliche'/retort in the alternative medicine community.
It's very obvious you started this thread to take a cheap poke at those of us who are certified in our alternative specialty health related modalities.
I realize I'm not well educated or well versed in basic equine anatomy and physiology in your mind, but I daresay Dr Ramey's training, background, and fund of knowledge far overshadows yours. The main thrust of my starting this thread, to begin with, was to put forth my opinion that being "CERTIFIED in alternative specialty health-related modalities" is merely a marketing tool, for the most part. | |
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Location: Bastrop, Texas | This is from a site called Quackwatch:
3. What are its membership requirements? Is scientific expertise required—or just a willingness to pay dues? An organization open to almost anyone may be perfectly respectable (like the American Association for the Advancement of Science), but don't let the fact that an individual belongs to it impress you. The International Academy of Nutritional Consultants, the American Association of Nutritional Consultants, the National Academy of Research Biochemists, and the International Association of Therapeutic Specialists issue attractive certificates, but their only requirement for "professional membership" has been payment of a modest fee. Some "institutes," "research" centers, and voluntary organizations are simply names adopted by an individual or a few people who wish to make their commercial activities sound more respectable. The National Academy of Sports Medicine, for example, began as a private corporation used for marketing dubious products; and the "Noble Research Society" merely marketed a quack device. | |
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| read my post above if you have missed it- and to this post I will say that you are definitely not qualified to have a verifiable opinion on this subject. I've dissected horses and studied equine biomechanics as a hobby for decades- this is why I have good relationships with the veterinarians I work with. They appreciate that I hold certifications, they state these to their clients when they refer them to me.
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| Bear - 2016-05-31 6:14 PM This is from a site called Quackwatch: 3. What are its membership requirements? Is scientific expertise required—or just a willingness to pay dues? An organization open to almost anyone may be perfectly respectable (like the American Association for the Advancement of Science), but don't let the fact that an individual belongs to it impress you. The International Academy of Nutritional Consultants, the American Association of Nutritional Consultants, the National Academy of Research Biochemists, and the International Association of Therapeutic Specialists issue attractive certificates, but their only requirement for "professional membership" has been payment of a modest fee. Some "institutes," "research" centers, and voluntary organizations are simply names adopted by an individual or a few people who wish to make their commercial activities sound more respectable. The National Academy of Sports Medicine, for example, began as a private corporation used for marketing dubious products; and the "Noble Research Society" merely marketed a quack device. OK, so you just verified that you are indeed an internet "expert" who researches only those topics that support your narrow minded and uneducated theory- why not slip over to the dark side and read something that is peer reviewed and scholarly?
eta: OK, now you are just making me crabby......... if you want to play the science game get some scientific sources here to discuss- omg
Edited by trickster j 2016-05-31 8:23 PM
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Posts: 13030
Location: Texas | GLP - 2016-05-31 4:34 PM
Tdove - 2016-05-31 2:59 PM
I don't much think a vet certification is worth a darn either. There are a lot of vets that aren't very good. Experience goes a long way. No vet can be good at everything either. Certain vets are better at certain things, much of it to do with aptitude and experience. I wouldn't give a first year vet the time of day with my horse. Most have no idea how little they know. The same is true with most other things. I know non vet experts that are great at what they do, because they are focused on learning one thing and have gained the experience in doing it to be good at it. I have devoted a lot of time to equine nutrition, and I don't take much stock in a PhD in Equine Nutrition....they are the ones bringing us the junk food for horses. Many of the best dentist are non vets. Most vets are terrible dentist, and even worse nutritionist. Finally, Chiropractic services are best performed by a chiropractor. They do it for a living and experience and talent is what makes them good, not a vet degree. Seriously, a certification means little to me in any field. Mastery is dependent on skill and experience, no certification or bona fide degree alone provides this to you. It is just a starting place and in some cases is not necessary at all.
Amen to this!!! 
Gosh this stabs my heart. If you only knew how we truly feel. I'm just starting my fourth year of vet school, and am waiting on an emergency to come in.. so I have a few minutes to respond.
Every day we feel stupid, or at least I do. Every day I'm surrounded by vets who have anywhere from 2-40+ years experience on me. They ask me questions, they probe my brain, they challenge me. I feel like an idiot 99% of the time. In NO way do we feel like we know everything. In NO way do we feel like experts. We are shaking in our boots trying to remember everything we are taught, trying to figure out how these senior vets are so calm and collected making life and death decisions on horses. We use up what little vacation time we have to visit more and more clinics so we can get as much experience as we get. We take a job first year out of school making anywhere from 20-30,000 for that first year. Can you imagine, having a doctorate degree, and making $25,000? High paying internships pay around $35,000 and are few and far between. We **** sure don't do it for the money, we do it because we have this crazy calling to try and help both animals and people. Associates are lucky to break into 6 figure incomes.
So, I'm not sure what 1st year out of school vets you are talking about.. but I can tell you, every single one I have met knows exactly where they stand, how much they don't know, and how far we have to go. So, I'm going to pretend I didn't read this and I'm going to keep plugging along, head low, taking in as much as I can being the low man on the totem pole. | |
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Location: north dakota | I utilize a few certified experts such as a equine denist, farriers message therapist and a horse Chiro. I can see the point Dr Ramsey is making since I've seen coarses offered and you can be certified for some massage therapist in 3 days.
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