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| luvropin - 2016-06-01 12:57 PM
I was controlling my 12 year old mare's tying up episodes with a magnesium supplement for years. She also has had ulcers in the past so I have her on an supplement for that as well.
This spring she had a bad episode at a high school rodeo, actually went down on the end pole coming home. Scared the heck out of the little gal that is using her. Since she has done that the episodes are more frequent.
I am working on tweaking her diet again, thanks for the no whole grains tip...She wasn't getting much but now will get none. Taking a list of her diet with me to the vet and hoping we can come up with something. This mare is an ATHLETE. Why does this have to happen to the good ones?
I was pretty miffed at the whole PSSM thing. I have never had to deal with these issues growing up. My horses were sound and lived almost forever. I did see where Martha is also PSSM and she is managed well and of course made several trips to the NFR ( Lindsay Sears). SO its not a death sentence by any means. And there are SO MANY choices for supplements out there. |
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 Expert
Posts: 2335
Location: IL | FLITASTIC - 2016-06-01 3:11 PM luvropin - 2016-06-01 12:57 PM I was controlling my 12 year old mare's tying up episodes with a magnesium supplement for years. She also has had ulcers in the past so I have her on an supplement for that as well. This spring she had a bad episode at a high school rodeo, actually went down on the end pole coming home. Scared the heck out of the little gal that is using her. Since she has done that the episodes are more frequent. I am working on tweaking her diet again, thanks for the no whole grains tip...She wasn't getting much but now will get none. Taking a list of her diet with me to the vet and hoping we can come up with something. This mare is an ATHLETE. Why does this have to happen to the good ones? I was pretty miffed at the whole PSSM thing. I have never had to deal with these issues growing up. My horses were sound and lived almost forever. I did see where Martha is also PSSM and she is managed well and of course made several trips to the NFR ( Lindsay Sears ). SO its not a death sentence by any means. And there are SO MANY choices for supplements out there.
I just read that article that you attached a couple comment back. So you can't feed magnesium with ulcer products or calcium?? |
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Expert
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| merdth6 - 2016-06-01 1:27 PM
FLITASTIC - 2016-06-01 3:11 PM luvropin - 2016-06-01 12:57 PM I was controlling my 12 year old mare's tying up episodes with a magnesium supplement for years. She also has had ulcers in the past so I have her on an supplement for that as well. This spring she had a bad episode at a high school rodeo, actually went down on the end pole coming home. Scared the heck out of the little gal that is using her. Since she has done that the episodes are more frequent. I am working on tweaking her diet again, thanks for the no whole grains tip...She wasn't getting much but now will get none. Taking a list of her diet with me to the vet and hoping we can come up with something. This mare is an ATHLETE. Why does this have to happen to the good ones? I was pretty miffed at the whole PSSM thing. I have never had to deal with these issues growing up. My horses were sound and lived almost forever. I did see where Martha is also PSSM and she is managed well and of course made several trips to the NFR ( Lindsay Sears ). SO its not a death sentence by any means. And there are SO MANY choices for supplements out there.
It says simultaneously. So what I do is the ulcer stuff in morning and Magnesium in evening. Or you can just feed them few hours apart. |
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Chi Chi Mama
Posts: 11212
Location: Spokompton, Wa | FLITASTIC - 2016-06-01 12:30 PM
Scotch - 2016-06-01 11:03 AM
Wow. You just described what I am going thru right now as well! Just got done at the vets as a matter of fact. My colt's (4 year old) came up really body sore about 2 1/2 months ago. Thought it was his back and rump only. Had massage and chiro done. No help. Chiro said he's sore because he's low on selenium. (Common in our area) Been giving a organic selenium/yeast for almost 2 months. No change. Took him to the lameness specialist 2 weeks ago. Clean bill of health there. Hock x-rays were clean. He told me possible kissing spine, but unlikely due to his age and amount of training (only about 90 days). I haven't ventured up that path as of yet. Took him to get blood work today to check magnesium/selenium levels and lyme disease. He said unlikely that because it's not really in our area. Just have to wait now for the blood work to come back. I asked him about PSSM also but he didn't think so.
How is your horse's attitude? My horse acts like he feels awesome. Never looks better body wise. Runs, squeals and bucks around. Acts like he is totally fine until you palpate him. He'll about fall to the ground if you run your hands down his back muscles. Sinks away if you touch the top of his rump. Hates his "hamstring" area palpated. Can't stand his neck muscles done either. Tried to bite me today actually when I did that. Which is uncharacteristic for him.
I am at a total loss too. I am sick over it. This is my 'dream horse". :(
I am going to join the PSSM forum but to the others that have dealt with this..... is it "normal" for horses to act totally normal until you touch them with PSSM?
Scotch, my colt was very similar. Not quite as back sore as you describe but should not be as sore as he was for the saddle being great fit and his work load! LOL Each horse is different... And yes, my horse LOOKS and FEELS like a million bucks!!! Slick shiney etc. Same as yours. Scroll down here and read these symptoms.... Its very much as you described.... Jewels, you will recognize some symptoms to!
 
http://performanceequinenutrition.com/magnesium-101/magnesium-miner...
And bottom line weather they have it or not, treated with DIET. Doesn't hurt to try.
Thank you! Those symptoms are very much my colt. I have noticed he is a lot more nervous and anxious. Which is not typically like him. Hmm...
Dang, now I want to go home and feed him some. lol
Thanks again! |
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Posts: 1100
Location: Southeastern Idaho | FLITASTIC - 2016-06-01 12:36 PM
The Only supplement mine is on is U7 gastric liquid and a joint supplement someone wanted me to try because they insisted it worked. I am not a believer in oral joint supplements usually but going to finish this container and see. Looking back one of the symptoms of PSSM is random lameness that vets can't seem to find.. LOL I will probably discontinue it when I finish it now that I have found my answer. My magnesium is a 1oz scoop daily but you can double it first 10 days to get a deficient horse back normal again. They will get a loose stool if they have to much. Vitamin E is a tiny tiny little scoop.
Here is a link to the PSSM diet.
http://www.erabc.com/PSSMDIET.pdf
Thank you for sharing this and the other links. Lots of education going on right now! :) Hoping to find an answer here. |
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| merdth6 - 2016-06-01 10:04 AM I have a 5 year old mare that is body sore. She's sore across lower back and over hips. I've had her vet checked and she was clean. I know she has some stomach issues and she's being treated for that, but today when you touch her back she wants to almost drop to the ground. Not a saddle fit issue as she hasn't been ridden alot and when I have ridden her I have a sweat marks for my Martin saddle. I'm wondering if maybe magnesium is low? Banging my head here. She is starting to look better and filling out.
Did he check her ovaries? |
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  Warmblood with Wings
Posts: 27846
Location: Florida.. | GrahamKayleigh - 2016-06-02 9:47 AM merdth6 - 2016-06-01 10:04 AM I have a 5 year old mare that is body sore. She's sore across lower back and over hips. I've had her vet checked and she was clean. I know she has some stomach issues and she's being treated for that, but today when you touch her back she wants to almost drop to the ground. Not a saddle fit issue as she hasn't been ridden alot and when I have ridden her I have a sweat marks for my Martin saddle. I'm wondering if maybe magnesium is low? Banging my head here. She is starting to look better and filling out. Did he check her ovaries?
agree ....sonogram and palpate her.. |
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 The Bling Princess
Posts: 3411
Location: North Dakota | GrahamKayleigh - 2016-06-02 8:47 AM merdth6 - 2016-06-01 10:04 AM I have a 5 year old mare that is body sore. She's sore across lower back and over hips. I've had her vet checked and she was clean. I know she has some stomach issues and she's being treated for that, but today when you touch her back she wants to almost drop to the ground. Not a saddle fit issue as she hasn't been ridden alot and when I have ridden her I have a sweat marks for my Martin saddle. I'm wondering if maybe magnesium is low? Banging my head here. She is starting to look better and filling out. Did he check her ovaries?
That and hocks, stifles, and SI?? |
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 IMA No Hair Style Gal
Posts: 2594
| I went through a body soreness issue with my horse about two years ago. This has not been mentioned and is not widely recognized in the equine world. I also believe there is some controversy among vets when it comes to diagnosing horses with it. Anyways, it is called Myofascial Syndrome, similar to fibromyalgia in people, only in horses. It affects the fascial tissue in the horses and when the syndrome flairs up the fascial tissue becomes extremely tight and painful to the horse. The horse has a large fascial plain across their back which is a possibility as to why your horse hunkers down when being saddled. This is something my horse does to this day even after being treated. I will go ahead and break down everything I learned and gained/cost/ and what steps were taken for treatment.
Symptoms: My horse was also a little on the sensitive side when saddling up. He would toss his head, pin his ears, and hunker his back down when I would go to saddle. He spent about 3 weeks with my trainer, as I wanted to get his opinion on the abilities and potential my horse had. I asked my trainer for his opinion on his back hunkering down, but he didn’t think it was anything to really worry about so I let it be. Well….time progressed on, maybe 6th months and my horse was becoming extremely sensitive. I would put the breast collar on and my horse would back up and swish his tail, I would ride and the entire time my horse would swish his tail, he almost fell over when I went to saddle him, and when I would brush him on his back legs he would try to kick. So that was the straw that broke the camel’s back and I talked to my vet about what I needed to do. We both agreed it was probably a saddle fit issue and he referred me to a holistic vet in our area who treats horses through acupuncture, herbs, and chiropractic work.
Dr. Leick ran a pen lightly across all the acupuncture points my horse had and said that my horse was reacting to two possible concerns. The first one was myofascial syndrome which is within the tissue across all the acupuncture points and then he said that he also may have EPM as he was more reactive across his EPM points.
The Treatment: Dr. Leick gave me engystol and traumeel within these glass vials that I would break open and mix together and inject into his hip every other day. I had to do 5 injections. Then he told me to start him on lysine and keep him on it for the rest of his life otherwise there was a chance of a relapse and I would need to repeat with these injections.
Cost: $70 for the evaluation, and $150 for the hip injections, another $200 for the Quing Hao San
What happened next: I took my horse back for a check up to evaluate the change. My horse was less reactive, but still showing positive for EPM. The vet ordered a Chinese herb called Quing Hao San to treat my horse for EPM, this was another $200. Once I completed the Quing Hao San I went back for a final check up and my horse was completely different! No more sensitivity issues, but I do occasionally get the hunkering down when I ride a lot and over consecutive days.
The explanation given to me by Dr. Leick and my other vet's thoughts too:
Obviously I had TONS of questions for Dr. Leick about all of this, and had he not had the 30 years DVM background I am not sure I would have been entirely convinced that my horse had all of the above. He explained to me that myofascial syndrome is a virus that can be picked up anywhere and lay dormant in their system. He said my horse likely picked it up as a baby simply grazing in the pasture and the stress of the EPM brought on an intense flair up of the myofascial syndrome. I am not entirely convinced my horse had EPM as I never had the EPM test done, and my main vet was not convinced either, but there was really no point in me spending the money on the test when the test is not necessarily reliable either. My horse was never neurological either. Dr. Leick said that acupuncture points are extremely sensitive and indicate issues about 4 months prior to any other symptoms showing up. He said it was simply luck I came when I did as in about 4 months I would have bad much bigger issues. I asked my main vet if myofascial syndrome actually exists and he said it did, but didn’t really give me any other information. I also asked him how he would have treated my horse had I come to him with these issues as I was curious about holistic vet care vs. traditional and if I would have gotten the same diagnosis. I am convinced if I had gone with the traditional vet I would still be banging my head against the wall. As my main vet said they would have ultra- sounded him and x rayed his back and gone from there (to have those tests done would have been the same cost as the treatment Leick provided, and I still would need to spend $$ on whatever treatment my traditional vet recommended).
What I do to keep my horse happy now and things I notice about his behavior:
When my horse is kept up a lot he is a lot more sensitive, when his back gets wet he is also a lot more sensitive, and when the weather is colder he is also a lot more sensitive so I have to make sure I warm him up well in all the above situations. When it is rainy at a show I make it a point to keep him out of the rain or keep his back covered, and I bought him a PHT magnetic blanket that I keep on him when I ride him consecutive days. I have noticed if I don’t use the blanket he hunkers his back down more than when I do use the blanket.
Information that may help you:
Vets website that treated my horse-call him leave him a message and he will probably gladly return your call and educate you. This guy is busy though and he doesn’t email. He is booked out months in advance as he tends to fix up a lot of cases that traditional vet medicine doesn’t.
http://ronleickdvm.com/
Video clip that talks about collection, but the second part shows a 3D demo on the anatomy of the horses back and shows you the fascial plain that is across the horses back and how it affects your horse’s movement. Sorry it is 18 minutes but has SO MUCH GOOD INFORMATION!!!
http://horselistening.com/2016/05/07/it-really-is-all-about-the-horses-back-video/
Links to video documentation I took of what I learned and how my horse changed (I did this because I knew there may one day be someone else out there in the same boat as me who wanted/needed answers and what I had to share may not be as believable unless I had visible proof of how it helped my horse, I stopped at day 3 when I noticed a change as I felt kind of stupid haha, shout out to PHT in my first video).
Introduction:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j83rLnInEmg&feature=youtu.be-
How he reacts before treatment:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UbBroEInV50&feature=youtu.be
How he acts after 3 injections:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZdGn-_owY3o&feature=youtu.be
And last….what does lysine do and why does it work for this:
https://forageplus.co.uk/the-importance-of-lysine/
Lysine helps with tissue repair
Good luck I hope you find the answers that you are looking for. 2 years out and no more issues to the degree that they were. He is a sensitive horse, and likely always will be, but it is a manageable sensitivity.
ETA: Another article on Myofascial syndrome in dogs, explains what it is in dogs which also applies to what it is in horses.
http://healthypets.mercola.com/sites/healthypets/archive/2012/12/07/myofascial-pain-syndrome.aspx
Edited by magic gunsmoke 2016-06-02 1:23 PM
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Location: Gainesville, TX | Hocks and stifles frequently cause back pain. Xrays may be clean too. Look for classical symptoms of hock soreness and see if there may be some inflammation in the soft tissues of those areas. Your horse may need to try adequan or a joint supplement or some other form of treatment.
PSSM is a possibility. Never hurts to change their diet, but I would check out hocks and stifles first. As she's a mare, certainly checking for ovarian cysts would be a good idea too.
Little less likely is kissing spine. If none of the other stuff works maybe get xrays of her lower back vertebra to see. |
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Expert
Posts: 2335
Location: IL | oija - 2016-06-02 12:26 PM Hocks and stifles frequently cause back pain. Xrays may be clean too. Look for classical symptoms of hock soreness and see if there may be some inflammation in the soft tissues of those areas. Your horse may need to try adequan or a joint supplement or some other form of treatment. PSSM is a possibility. Never hurts to change their diet, but I would check out hocks and stifles first. As she's a mare, certainly checking for ovarian cysts would be a good idea too. Little less likely is kissing spine. If none of the other stuff works maybe get xrays of her lower back vertebra to see.
When I bought this mare, I had a full lameness exam done. Checked everything. I didn't get hock xrays because he felt she was not sore there at all. I trust my vet and he has been correct on all of his previous diagnoses with my other horses. And believe me I seem to always have problems. I'm going to treat this as a magnesium deficiency and see if she improves. The more I've been reading on this topic I can also pin point other problems that my horses are having that also point to low magnesium. I have not fed fortified grains in almost a year and they haven't had a vitamin/mineral supplement in a while, so I'm thinking all of my horses need additional magnesium and they will start getting a vitamin/mineral supplement. Then see how this pans out. I'm not ruling out PSSM, but I also didn't give the basic needs to my horses who all compete. My bad. I seem to learn new things every year  |
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Expert
Posts: 5293
| merdth6 - 2016-06-02 12:00 PM
oija - 2016-06-02 12:26 PM Hocks and stifles frequently cause back pain. Xrays may be clean too. Look for classical symptoms of hock soreness and see if there may be some inflammation in the soft tissues of those areas. Your horse may need to try adequan or a joint supplement or some other form of treatment. PSSM is a possibility. Never hurts to change their diet, but I would check out hocks and stifles first. As she's a mare, certainly checking for ovarian cysts would be a good idea too. Little less likely is kissing spine. If none of the other stuff works maybe get xrays of her lower back vertebra to see.
When I bought this mare, I had a full lameness exam done. Checked everything. I didn't get hock xrays because he felt she was not sore there at all. I trust my vet and he has been correct on all of his previous diagnoses with my other horses. And believe me I seem to always have problems. I'm going to treat this as a magnesium deficiency and see if she improves. The more I've been reading on this topic I can also pin point other problems that my horses are having that also point to low magnesium. I have not fed fortified grains in almost a year and they haven't had a vitamin/mineral supplement in a while, so I'm thinking all of my horses need additional magnesium and they will start getting a vitamin/mineral supplement. Then see how this pans out. I'm not ruling out PSSM, but I also didn't give the basic needs to my horses who all compete. My bad. I seem to learn new things every year
Great place to start and thats what I am doing as well until the type 2 test is available. And I have said it before but weather they are Mag deficient or actually have PSSM its the same treatment. |
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Expert
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Location: Gainesville, TX | merdth6 - 2016-06-02 2:00 PM
oija - 2016-06-02 12:26 PM Hocks and stifles frequently cause back pain. Xrays may be clean too. Look for classical symptoms of hock soreness and see if there may be some inflammation in the soft tissues of those areas. Your horse may need to try adequan or a joint supplement or some other form of treatment. PSSM is a possibility. Never hurts to change their diet, but I would check out hocks and stifles first. As she's a mare, certainly checking for ovarian cysts would be a good idea too. Little less likely is kissing spine. If none of the other stuff works maybe get xrays of her lower back vertebra to see.
When I bought this mare, I had a full lameness exam done. Checked everything. I didn't get hock xrays because he felt she was not sore there at all. I trust my vet and he has been correct on all of his previous diagnoses with my other horses. And believe me I seem to always have problems. I'm going to treat this as a magnesium deficiency and see if she improves. The more I've been reading on this topic I can also pin point other problems that my horses are having that also point to low magnesium. I have not fed fortified grains in almost a year and they haven't had a vitamin/mineral supplement in a while, so I'm thinking all of my horses need additional magnesium and they will start getting a vitamin/mineral supplement. Then see how this pans out. I'm not ruling out PSSM, but I also didn't give the basic needs to my horses who all compete. My bad. I seem to learn new things every year
How long have you had the mare? |
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Expert
Posts: 2335
Location: IL | Since the beginning of March. She was thin when I bought her and the person that owned her before only had her on hay. She wouldn't eat grain. So right off the back I suspected stomach ulcers/hindgut problems. She was also rushed thru training and IMO pushed way too fast which I'm sure stressed the heck out of her, and again figured stomach problems. She is eating great now and starting to put some weight on, but just acts inconsistantly. Almost like a 2 year old and she's 5. I also know there are basics in training that was left out, so I'm working on that too. Some days she's great, then other's she's a wreck. I'm hoping to see an improvement with the magnesium. Keeping my fingers crosses. It's funny because she's patterned on barrels, but I haven't even tried to run her yet. She not there yet.
Edited to say...I don't have an issue injecting hocks, in fact I have 3 horses that have gotten hock injections, if she doesn't seem better then we will take another trip to the vets office. I had thought maybe hocks but she would be sore all the time and she not show consistant symptoms. Sometimes she awesome to ride, sometimes not.
Edited by merdth6 2016-06-02 4:26 PM
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Sock Snob
Posts: 3021
| maybe try some cur-ost for a month. |
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 I keep my butt inside
Posts: 3281
Location: Weatherford, Texas | For general body soreness I think many discount plain ole muscle soreness. An overweight horse (for their body condition and expectation of performance--i.e. sprinters aren't bulky) is always prone to soreness that people start injections etc for. When you get down to it- the pretty round horse may not be the build for that horse to do that job and so for that they are slightly overweight.
Other issues are just the general use causing muscle soreness- riding, turning, hauling, playing in the stall, kicking or trying to confined buck in the stall. You name it.
Either way- for body sore horses I will car buff them. Go to Walmart and get the $20 car buffer. Put the fleece top over the spinning wheel and then turn it on. Hold it hard enough to keep it from spinning and it will basically deeper tissue type massage them. When I was rodeoing I did this and it would keep them feeling great and work out any of those muscle issues so I could see the true issue. It also helped keep them from needing the chiro as much. |
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Common Sense and then some
Location: So. California | Adding to the information already posted...
Testing for PSSM1 is easy, it's a simple hair test.
You can order a 5 panel test through AQHA, APHA or on line with Animal Genetics. If you want to test for PSSM1 only, Animal Genetics offers it for $40.00... Seriously, it is cheap!
Testing for PSSM2 is still being developed, but they believe they have narrowed down the gene associated with this. You may be able to get in on the PSSM2 study through the FB PSSM page, or you can always have your vet do a biopsy and send it out for results. Obviously, the biopsy will be more $$
PSSM1 horses can also be sensitive to the sugars in grass/pastures, many require dry lots. They also require daily exercise of some type, pasture turn out is not usually enough for a performance horse.
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 Peat and Repeat
Posts: 2773
Location: IN MY OWN LITTLE WORLD AT LEAST THEY KNOW ME HERE | Been going thru soreness for a year. Ughhhh
Yep have spent an fortune on Chiro, X-rays, ulcer treatments,
Different saddles, pads blah blah
December she started looking like sale barn trash.
Dull hair, thin, and just didn't act like she felt good.
I power pac'd her.
Still eating good. 2 scoops 2xday omelene 200, good fertilized coastal, salt, mineral, calf mana.
No change.
Had teeth checked, vacs etc
last time I ran her was first of December.
I take her to a track vet n checked her all over and he asked me if I had been riding her hard.
As she is severely sore from withers to tail.
Really sore withers and kidney area n hips.
No.
He then asks if he could pull blood for EPM.
The then stated he wanted her on a high fat feed. 1 1/2 2x day
It is 12 pro 12 fat 12 fiber
Suggested Blue Bonnet Omega Force and selenium vitamin e
4 doses a day.
Blood test came back positive for exposure to epm.
Treated w protazil.
Waiting for 2 blood work to see if we got the evil little critters gone from her body.
She looks amazing. Gained her weight back and is shining like satin.
My suggestion would be to take your pony and have blood work done
Before you get on the self treating train.
It has been a horrible roller coaster for us and now I have a answer and hopefully a great outcome.
Best of luck to you.
Hope you find your answer.
Edited by Yakima 2016-06-04 12:09 AM
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Chi Chi Mama
Posts: 11212
Location: Spokompton, Wa | Sorry, I'm reincarnating this thread. :) I finally got my Magnesium and Vit E from Gateway today. Two weeks late thank to the good ol' mail service. Anyway, I'm still dealing with muscle soreness. Switched him to PSSM diet and still sore. Blood work came back last week. All trace mineral levels were normal. Inc. magnesium and vit E.
My question now, if the levels are good according to the blood panel, could the supplements I just received even benefit? |
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Posts: 104
Location: Southern Michigan | I just want to say a BIG Thank you for all this amazing education information! I have been at a brick wall dealing with my mare and her soreness, and I feel this has given me a new lead to investigate!
Between me studying equine massage, and the chiropractor coming out Monday, I'm excited to hopefully get more answers to helping her feel better.
As far as the diet for treating PSSM, is there a ready to go bag of feed that I can get? I keep my mare at my parents farm, and the simpler the better, especially if I need consistency. I wish I could go back to feeding myself, but it is what it is for the time being. Currently she is on Tribute Kalm Ultra, which she's not crazy about unless she gets a handful of sweet feed sprinkled on top.
Will it hurt her if she gets the supplements and they happen to forget to feed it to her occasionally?
Thanks! |
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