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 Veteran
Posts: 239
 
| veintiocho - 2016-07-25 1:29 PM 2H~QH - 2016-07-25 1:34 PM I'm dealing with a similar issue right now with my mare. As far as we can tell it is a sore lumbar area. Short strided on LH and will cross fire. Did hocks in April (I do them once a year, she has a small amount of DJD but not sore). Did not flex sore on any hind joints. Chiro made it better but not completely (out in pelvis). I have been massaging her gracilis muscles as they feel tight...also I have been needling her (acupuncture) and that helps as well. However, she is still not 100%. Therefore, we (myself and chiro) figure probably a back issue, and mostly because I have been riding her wrong (my bad!) Saddle fits fine, but what I have been doing is allowing her to be heavy on the forehand for too long. This mare likes to lope with her head down and withers up however she will hang her hocks way out behind her. 5 years of loping her like that and she has a crappy back. So I am just trying to baby her through our association finals next month.
Long story, but I wanted to share an exercise I have been doing. She doesn't pick up her back feet very well while backing (no stride) so I have been backing her in a figure 8. This makes them not only pick up the back foot more, but because they have to cross it over, it helps to work muscles that they don't normally work, so it will help build up a little more strength in their hind end. I have just started doing it but 3 days in she is already improving her stride.
Good luck.....I totally feel your pain.....keep us updated!!
That is interesting. She started cross firing on her R lead only first part of June and not wanting to collect up, which is what started us on this journey...
Mine was exactly the same. Mid June - ran her pretty hard and the next day she started humping up/crossfiring. Been searching for the cause ever since.
I read somewhere (don't remember where....vet school was a long time ago lol) that most horses will get sore backs on the RH because they are more "left handed" i.e. they will naturally prefer travelling left, pick up left lead easier, etc so they are dumping more on the LF and to balance out, end up using the RH a lot more so show soreness there. Mine has always been smoother loping to the right and so the left hind unsoundness makes sense for her.
It's extremely frustrating!
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 672
| Yes it is very frustrating! Have you tried muscle relaxers or mesotherapy? | |
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Veteran
Posts: 239
| veintiocho - 2016-07-25 2:07 PM Yes it is very frustrating! Have you tried muscle relaxers or mesotherapy?
I haven't tried either, mainly because I haven't truly "diagnosed" anything yet. I have ruled almost everything out. But I think before I do more than what I am (massage chiro and acupuncture) I will have to bite the bullet and take her to a diagnostic specialist as I am no longer in practice, I don't have access to any fun imaging tools anymore. I just want to make sure I'm not dealing with any vertebral issues.
And honestly.... even if it is diagnosed as just muscle, I think I will just lay her off for a time then really work on building her back strength up before I start down the path of injections etc. Just me.
Keep me in the loop, I'd be interested to see what helps your horse :)
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 672
| 2H~QH - 2016-07-25 3:22 PM
veintiocho - 2016-07-25 2:07 PM Yes it is very frustrating! Have you tried muscle relaxers or mesotherapy?
I haven't tried either, mainly because I haven't truly "diagnosed" anything yet. I have ruled almost everything out. But I think before I do more than what I am (massage chiro and acupuncture) I will have to bite the bullet and take her to a diagnostic specialist as I am no longer in practice, I don't have access to any fun imaging tools anymore. I just want to make sure I'm not dealing with any vertebral issues.
And honestly.... even if it is diagnosed as just muscle, I think I will just lay her off for a time then really work on building her back strength up before I start down the path of injections etc. Just me.
Keep me in the loop, I'd be interested to see what helps your horse :)
I think if she doesn't improve this week I will take her back to the vet so we can see what else may be going on, like you said, I don't want to be dealing with any underlying vertebrae issues.
Quite a while ago I had a gelding who's back was extremely sore due to a poor fitting saddle. Chiro and time off didn't help so the vet had me try muscle relaxers, which didn't work either. As a last resort we did mesotherapy, which at that time my vet had just come back from CA and had learned about it there and asked if we could do it as an experiment. He was a new horse after that.  | |
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 Extreme Veteran
Posts: 494
| Check for EPM. I know everyone says to do it and it sounds like beating a dead horse on the issue, but I went ahead with one and they had epm! | |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 672
| epoh - 2016-07-26 9:40 AM
Check for EPM. I know everyone says to do it and it sounds like beating a dead horse on the issue, but I went ahead with one and they had epm!
I am up north so I don't think that is what we're dealing with. Not saying it's impossible, but at this point I don't think that's what it is. Thanks for the input tho :) | |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 672
| Update- after a few rides last week she felt great, didn't take a short step and I could really feel her reaching up under with that L hind. I was doing a lot of collection exercises as suggested by SKM and going over ground poles. I also started feeding her magnesium and rubbing her back with linamint after every ride and thought we were headed in the right direction. I rode her Friday and she spooked a couple of times pretty hard, but never took a bad step. I rode her again on Sunday and she was back to short stepping and when I palpated her back she was sore. I made an appointment with my vet, but he is on vacation next week and booked this week so won't be able to get her in until 8/15. I really want to figure out what is making her back/stifle sore.
Could sore kidneys show up as back pain? She has stopped to pee about 5-10 min into our ride every time, which she usually doesn't. Not sure if I'm just riding during her usual pee time or if it's related? | |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 878
Location: "...way down south in the Everglades..." | veintiocho - 2016-08-02 10:57 AM Update- after a few rides last week she felt great, didn't take a short step and I could really feel her reaching up under with that L hind. I was doing a lot of collection exercises as suggested by SKM and going over ground poles. I also started feeding her magnesium and rubbing her back with linamint after every ride and thought we were headed in the right direction. I rode her Friday and she spooked a couple of times pretty hard, but never took a bad step. I rode her again on Sunday and she was back to short stepping and when I palpated her back she was sore. I made an appointment with my vet, but he is on vacation next week and booked this week so won't be able to get her in until 8/15. I really want to figure out what is making her back/stifle sore. Could sore kidneys show up as back pain? She has stopped to pee about 5-10 min into our ride every time, which she usually doesn't. Not sure if I'm just riding during her usual pee time or if it's related?
Yep, sore kidneys could show as back pain. Glad you got an appointment for the following week! Best wishes for a good outcome and keep us posted! | |
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 I Don't Brag
Posts: 6960
 
| What do you feed? This horse sounds like a possible PSSM candidate. Had a mare that was fine when I bought her as a 4 yr old but started having various lameness issues after I had her awhile. Had had her for 5 years before she tied up. Wasn't a typical tying up and her SGOT was not really elevated but vet suggested that she had PSSM and to change feed. SO I put her on the low carb, high fat diet and the change was pretty impressive. This mare always had incredible muscle tone, way beyond tight.
The change with the diet illuminated past issues. Always had to use a very soft brush or she would flinch, especially across the back, she was VERY resistant to giving her chin, much improved after a couple of weeks on the new diet. These are just a couple of examples. I never had her tested, just managed her diet and switched all of my horses to it, minus the increased fat. They all look fabulous and founder from feed is no longer a worry.
Not saying that PSSM is a definitive cause of your horse's ongoing mysterious lameness but I would sure give it a hard look and try a feed change. Magnesium is one of the things many PSSM owners swear by.
Best of luck to you, this can be SO frustrating! | |
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I just read the headlines
Posts: 4483
| rodeoveteran - 2016-08-02 11:12 AM
What do you feed? This horse sounds like a possible PSSM candidate. Had a mare that was fine when I bought her as a 4 yr old but started having various lameness issues after I had her awhile. Had had her for 5 years before she tied up. Wasn't a typical tying up and her SGOT was not really elevated but vet suggested that she had PSSM and to change feed. SO I put her on the low carb, high fat diet and the change was pretty impressive. This mare always had incredible muscle tone, way beyond tight.
The change with the diet illuminated past issues. Always had to use a very soft brush or she would flinch, especially across the back, she was VERY resistant to giving her chin, much improved after a couple of weeks on the new diet. These are just a couple of examples. I never had her tested, just managed her diet and switched all of my horses to it, minus the increased fat. They all look fabulous and founder from feed is no longer a worry.
Not saying that PSSM is a definitive cause of your horse's ongoing mysterious lameness but I would sure give it a hard look and try a feed change. Magnesium is one of the things many PSSM owners swear by.
Best of luck to you, this can be SO frustrating!
What are you feeding specifically? I have 2 mares that have some of the symptoms. | |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 672
| Right now she is on some pasture, prairie grass hay, and getting 1 cup whole oats to mix the magnesium pellets in. I havent turned her out full time on pasture with the other horses because they jack around and constantly play fight.. I had a horse with PSSM and she doesn't feel tight, grouchy, and unwilling to move like the other mare did.. Not totally disregarding it, but not really feeling like it's going that way at this point. Thank you :) | |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 672
| Speedy Buckeye Girl - 2016-08-02 10:58 AM
veintiocho - 2016-08-02 10:57 AM Update- after a few rides last week she felt great, didn't take a short step and I could really feel her reaching up under with that L hind. I was doing a lot of collection exercises as suggested by SKM and going over ground poles. I also started feeding her magnesium and rubbing her back with linamint after every ride and thought we were headed in the right direction. I rode her Friday and she spooked a couple of times pretty hard, but never took a bad step. I rode her again on Sunday and she was back to short stepping and when I palpated her back she was sore. I made an appointment with my vet, but he is on vacation next week and booked this week so won't be able to get her in until 8/15. I really want to figure out what is making her back/stifle sore. Could sore kidneys show up as back pain? She has stopped to pee about 5-10 min into our ride every time, which she usually doesn't. Not sure if I'm just riding during her usual pee time or if it's related?
Yep, sore kidneys could show as back pain. Glad you got an appointment for the following week! Best wishes for a good outcome and keep us posted!
Where exactly would it show pain? Right now when I palpated her back she flinches in her lumbar area right along the spine. | |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 878
Location: "...way down south in the Everglades..." | veintiocho - 2016-08-02 12:29 PM Speedy Buckeye Girl - 2016-08-02 10:58 AM veintiocho - 2016-08-02 10:57 AM Update- after a few rides last week she felt great, didn't take a short step and I could really feel her reaching up under with that L hind. I was doing a lot of collection exercises as suggested by SKM and going over ground poles. I also started feeding her magnesium and rubbing her back with linamint after every ride and thought we were headed in the right direction. I rode her Friday and she spooked a couple of times pretty hard, but never took a bad step. I rode her again on Sunday and she was back to short stepping and when I palpated her back she was sore. I made an appointment with my vet, but he is on vacation next week and booked this week so won't be able to get her in until 8/15. I really want to figure out what is making her back/stifle sore. Could sore kidneys show up as back pain? She has stopped to pee about 5-10 min into our ride every time, which she usually doesn't. Not sure if I'm just riding during her usual pee time or if it's related? Yep, sore kidneys could show as back pain. Glad you got an appointment for the following week! Best wishes for a good outcome and keep us posted! Where exactly would it show pain? Right now when I palpated her back she flinches in her lumbar area right along the spine.
It would palpate as lumbar pain. However, not all horses with kidney issues will show symptoms of lumbar pain. Other symptoms that could indicate kidneys aside from increased or decreased urination are increased thirst, dull hair coat, decreased endurance, darkened urine, anorexic, edema...the more advanced kidney disease is, the more symptoms will show. But there are soooo many things that could cause a positive pain response in that area that I would be skeptical of it being the kidneys without any other symptoms. But definitely talk it over with your vet, only he or she can rule in or out potential issues. I didn't read all the posts so sorry if this is a repeat, but I'd also have the vet look into ovarian issues if you haven't had that checked. | |
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I Don't Brag
Posts: 6960
| I started out with GroStrong Ultra Fiber with added vegetable oil for additional fats and first cutting alfalfa hay. Nothing from oats or corn. Some PSSM horses cannot handle the sugars in grass.
Each horse may display different symptoms and respond differently to different feed programs.
I am currently feeding Tribute Calm and EZ GC and add some oil to the mare I am currently competing on. I no longer own the mare I suspected of PSSM. | |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 672
| Speedy Buckeye Girl - 2016-08-02 12:47 PM
veintiocho - 2016-08-02 12:29 PM Speedy Buckeye Girl - 2016-08-02 10:58 AM veintiocho - 2016-08-02 10:57 AM Update- after a few rides last week she felt great, didn't take a short step and I could really feel her reaching up under with that L hind. I was doing a lot of collection exercises as suggested by SKM and going over ground poles. I also started feeding her magnesium and rubbing her back with linamint after every ride and thought we were headed in the right direction. I rode her Friday and she spooked a couple of times pretty hard, but never took a bad step. I rode her again on Sunday and she was back to short stepping and when I palpated her back she was sore. I made an appointment with my vet, but he is on vacation next week and booked this week so won't be able to get her in until 8/15. I really want to figure out what is making her back/stifle sore. Could sore kidneys show up as back pain? She has stopped to pee about 5-10 min into our ride every time, which she usually doesn't. Not sure if I'm just riding during her usual pee time or if it's related? Yep, sore kidneys could show as back pain. Glad you got an appointment for the following week! Best wishes for a good outcome and keep us posted! Where exactly would it show pain? Right now when I palpated her back she flinches in her lumbar area right along the spine.
Yes, it’s one thing that I will bring up to the vet. The peeing while being rode is the only sign – everything else is normal, so it could totally be just a coincidence.
She does have a vertebrae in the area that she is sore that is raised or has a bump. Now, when I first noticed it I asked my vet about it and he looked at it and said it didn’t look like anything to worry about and she was not sore at the time. I asked the chiro about it as well, because she was sore/out on each vertebrae on either side of the raised one and the chiro said some vertebrae are larger than others and wasn’t concerned about it because she had good movement through it and on either side. But the bump has not always been there. I’ve had this mare since a yearling and the bump probably appeared about two years ago, but she was never off until this June. It has always bothered me, so to put my mind at rest I’ll ask to have it Xrayed at the appointment.
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I Don't Brag
Posts: 6960
| veintiocho - 2016-08-02 2:57 PM
Speedy Buckeye Girl - 2016-08-02 12:47 PM
veintiocho - 2016-08-02 12:29 PM Speedy Buckeye Girl - 2016-08-02 10:58 AM veintiocho - 2016-08-02 10:57 AM Update- after a few rides last week she felt great, didn't take a short step and I could really feel her reaching up under with that L hind. I was doing a lot of collection exercises as suggested by SKM and going over ground poles. I also started feeding her magnesium and rubbing her back with linamint after every ride and thought we were headed in the right direction. I rode her Friday and she spooked a couple of times pretty hard, but never took a bad step. I rode her again on Sunday and she was back to short stepping and when I palpated her back she was sore. I made an appointment with my vet, but he is on vacation next week and booked this week so won't be able to get her in until 8/15. I really want to figure out what is making her back/stifle sore. Could sore kidneys show up as back pain? She has stopped to pee about 5-10 min into our ride every time, which she usually doesn't. Not sure if I'm just riding during her usual pee time or if it's related? Yep, sore kidneys could show as back pain. Glad you got an appointment for the following week! Best wishes for a good outcome and keep us posted! Where exactly would it show pain? Right now when I palpated her back she flinches in her lumbar area right along the spine.
Yes, it’s one thing that I will bring up to the vet. The peeing while being rode is the only sign – everything else is normal, so it could totally be just a coincidence.
She does have a vertebrae in the area that she is sore that is raised or has a bump. Now, when I first noticed it I asked my vet about it and he looked at it and said it didn’t look like anything to worry about and she was not sore at the time. I asked the chiro about it as well, because she was sore/out on each vertebrae on either side of the raised one and the chiro said some vertebrae are larger than others and wasn’t concerned about it because she had good movement through it and on either side. But the bump has not always been there. I’ve had this mare since a yearling and the bump probably appeared about two years ago, but she was never off until this June. It has always bothered me, so to put my mind at rest I’ll ask to have it Xrayed at the appointment.
I was going to have my colt's back Xrayed due to an ongoing back issue in the thoracic/lumbar junction. I can get him adjusted and he will be fine for a day or two but shortly will be short stepping on one hind leg and will freeze up if you try to ride him.
This is what I found out. They can only ray the top of the spinous process, they cannot image the actual vertebrae due to the immense muscle tissue in the back. Which may or may not tell you if they have kissing spine.....that its about it. It was suggested that we do a body scan, which will tell us where the inflammation and pain are located. Ummmmm, thoracic/lumbar junction Einstein. Sigh
Short of a full CT scan or MRI, there is no way to see what is going on in the vertebrae from what I have been told by several vet clinics and State. | |
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 My Heart Be Happy
Posts: 9159
Location: Arkansas | veintiocho - 2016-08-02 11:29 AM
Speedy Buckeye Girl - 2016-08-02 10:58 AM
veintiocho - 2016-08-02 10:57 AM Update- after a few rides last week she felt great, didn't take a short step and I could really feel her reaching up under with that L hind. I was doing a lot of collection exercises as suggested by SKM and going over ground poles. I also started feeding her magnesium and rubbing her back with linamint after every ride and thought we were headed in the right direction. I rode her Friday and she spooked a couple of times pretty hard, but never took a bad step. I rode her again on Sunday and she was back to short stepping and when I palpated her back she was sore. I made an appointment with my vet, but he is on vacation next week and booked this week so won't be able to get her in until 8/15. I really want to figure out what is making her back/stifle sore. Could sore kidneys show up as back pain? She has stopped to pee about 5-10 min into our ride every time, which she usually doesn't. Not sure if I'm just riding during her usual pee time or if it's related?
Yep, sore kidneys could show as back pain. Glad you got an appointment for the following week! Best wishes for a good outcome and keep us posted!
Where exactly would it show pain? Right now when I palpated her back she flinches in her lumbar area right along the spine.
Maybe Run N Rate will weigh in on the kidney question since she (unfortunately) has tons of experience in that area | |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 672
| rodeoveteran - 2016-08-02 4:11 PM
veintiocho - 2016-08-02 2:57 PM
Speedy Buckeye Girl - 2016-08-02 12:47 PM
veintiocho - 2016-08-02 12:29 PM Speedy Buckeye Girl - 2016-08-02 10:58 AM veintiocho - 2016-08-02 10:57 AM Update- after a few rides last week she felt great, didn't take a short step and I could really feel her reaching up under with that L hind. I was doing a lot of collection exercises as suggested by SKM and going over ground poles. I also started feeding her magnesium and rubbing her back with linamint after every ride and thought we were headed in the right direction. I rode her Friday and she spooked a couple of times pretty hard, but never took a bad step. I rode her again on Sunday and she was back to short stepping and when I palpated her back she was sore. I made an appointment with my vet, but he is on vacation next week and booked this week so won't be able to get her in until 8/15. I really want to figure out what is making her back/stifle sore. Could sore kidneys show up as back pain? She has stopped to pee about 5-10 min into our ride every time, which she usually doesn't. Not sure if I'm just riding during her usual pee time or if it's related? Yep, sore kidneys could show as back pain. Glad you got an appointment for the following week! Best wishes for a good outcome and keep us posted! Where exactly would it show pain? Right now when I palpated her back she flinches in her lumbar area right along the spine.
Yes, it’s one thing that I will bring up to the vet. The peeing while being rode is the only sign – everything else is normal, so it could totally be just a coincidence.
She does have a vertebrae in the area that she is sore that is raised or has a bump. Now, when I first noticed it I asked my vet about it and he looked at it and said it didn’t look like anything to worry about and she was not sore at the time. I asked the chiro about it as well, because she was sore/out on each vertebrae on either side of the raised one and the chiro said some vertebrae are larger than others and wasn’t concerned about it because she had good movement through it and on either side. But the bump has not always been there. I’ve had this mare since a yearling and the bump probably appeared about two years ago, but she was never off until this June. It has always bothered me, so to put my mind at rest I’ll ask to have it Xrayed at the appointment.
I was going to have my colt's back Xrayed due to an ongoing back issue in the thoracic/lumbar junction. I can get him adjusted and he will be fine for a day or two but shortly will be short stepping on one hind leg and will freeze up if you try to ride him.
This is what I found out. They can only ray the top of the spinous process, they cannot image the actual vertebrae due to the immense muscle tissue in the back. Which may or may not tell you if they have kissing spine.....that its about it. It was suggested that we do a body scan, which will tell us where the inflammation and pain are located. Ummmmm, thoracic/lumbar junction Einstein. Sigh
Short of a full CT scan or MRI, there is no way to see what is going on in the vertebrae from what I have been told by several vet clinics and State.
Oh darn. Not what I was hoping, but at least I'll know what to expect. Thank you :) | |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 672
| Well I have some solid answers to the lameness that has been plaguing this mare! I took her back to the vet yesterday and explained what I had done since we were last there. While examining her again he vet found slight swelling & soreness around the lower suspensory branches on her L hind and after ultra-sounding we were able to see a tear in the suspensory and damage to the sesamoid bone. X-rayed it to see what kind of damage was done to the bone and it looked minimal and like it was healing. We started shockwave treatment and will go back for 2-3 more. While she was there I had them x-ray the small bump in her back to put my mind at rest and found that she in fact does have two vertebra that are narrowed and can pinch together. At this point they are only pinching when she makes sharp turns or fast moves. Which would explain her bucking earlier this year after spooking or tripping.
Since she is on stall rest now I did not go for an injection, but will do a lot of PT & stretching to work her abdominal & back muscles and strengthen those areas. When I take her back to get cleared for riding we will x-ray again and see where those vertebra are and if we need to inject. | |
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I just read the headlines
Posts: 4483
| Thank you for the update and hope everything goes well.  | |
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