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 A Somebody to Everybody
Posts: 41354
   
Location: Under The Big Sky Of Texas | When I got my Barrelhorse Stallion Register and saw that Claytons stud fee was way way lower then when he was first standing I was like WHAT!!! My eyeballs almost popped outa my head..  |
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 Born not Made
Posts: 2931
 
Location: North Dakota | TwistedK - 2017-02-23 2:39 PM NOPE. I hate the fact you can still breed to studs who are deceased (DTF, etc.) and I definitely wouldn't breed to a clone. How can you expect to better the breed and introduce new blood if you keep having the same horses.
^^This.
The smaller the gene pool, the more possiblity for genetic defects to appear. (Look what happened with Impressive with HYPP and Poco Bueno with HERDA) It is always important to come up with "new blood".
No, I would not breed to him either.
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 Undercover Amish Mafia Member
Posts: 9991
Location: Kansas | I would never breed to a clone for the simple fact that the resulting offspring cannot be registered |
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Veteran
Posts: 183
Location: Wyoming | I would not breed to a clone. I really wish people would think outside the box sometimes. How will their ever be new blood. Pretty soon it will be a same ole same ole gene pool with no other options and then comes the genetic problems. Be diffrent think outside the box. |
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| I would not breed to a clone as they are unproven stallions siring unregistered babies. I have a lot of respect for the impact that the great sires have made on the horse industry however it is time to continue growing our gene pool and stop being selfish about trying to make all the money possible off of a particular bloodline. Enough is enough.
Also, when you breed to a stallion that has been cloned-how can you differentiate between the semen if it is an exact DNA match? What is the verification process to assure that you are receiving the senior sire's semen and not the clone's semen? |
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| I am going to give a different perspective.
I am all for betterment of the breed
Through history we have learned so much about genetics, and lineage.
It wasn't till secretariat died we realized he was a large heart gene. We didn't realize what this meant on the race track till his male prodigy on the track was a flop.
Do I think by cloning could result in perfecting the breed, absolutely.
Frozen semen, would be ideal, but if no semen was stored, cloning another would be second best.
Imagine taking the best mares or stallions from this time and outcrossing on the best from 20 years from now. We could have some amazing horses.
I also believe cloning has not been perfected, in years to come it will become and exact science |
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 The best bad guy on the internet
Posts: 3519
Location: Arizona | I think it was the biggest mistake that the Owners of FG did. Why clone a legend? Breeders/Owners of his offspring don't benefit from them cloning FG. What a big disappointment.
Also, how do you know who's semen you get, FG or his clones???? Hmmm...... |
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Location: Wherever the Army sends my husband | LIVE2RUN - 2017-02-28 2:12 PM
I think it was the biggest mistake that the Owners of FG did. Why clone a legend? Breeders/Owners of his offspring don't benefit from them cloning FG. What a big disappointment.
****Also, how do you know who's semen you get, FG or his clones???? Hmmm......****_
You won't know. Its why I refuse to breed to any FG stallion that wasn't on the ground before the clones were.
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  JMHO
Posts: 1869
Location: Oklahoma | I'm just a little, hardworking, horse loving barrel racer that could NEVER afford a Frenchmans Guy. I'd love to try one and love even more to own one. I considered breeding to Guys Duplicate. Now that you can have them DNA'd to prove the parents, registered isn't nearly as important to me. The only thing stopping me is I really don't have the time to invest in a colt while keeping 2 horses going, a full time job and being in the AF Reserves. JMHO |
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 Take a Picture
Posts: 12838
| I really think that Frenchmans Guy was cloned was because they had the had the money to clone the horse. They did not have a really good son to replace FG and the cloning facility had everyone believing that with they would win their lawsuit against AQHA and the clones would be registered.
Clones of cutting horses have not really worked out very well. NCHA does not care if they are registered or not. |
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I just read the headlines
Posts: 4483
| I understand that the cloned polo ponies have worked out very well, but the cloned cutters have not. I know little to nothing about genetics, but does anyone have any possible explanations for this? |
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| There also was a bunch of racing mules that did not perform like the original. (You can probably google it still) Maybe an issue with nature vs nurture? I know there was a big argument with mitochondrial DNA, but I see that some how they matched the FG clones mitochondrial DNA too. Maybe it's advancements in science. From what I read it a different company that cloned the polo ponies. |
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 Champ
Posts: 19623
Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm | Kaye - 2017-03-01 7:28 AM
 There also was a bunch of racing mules that did not perform like the original. (You can probably google it still) Maybe an issue with nature vs nurture? I know there was a big argument with mitochondrial DNA, but I see that some how they matched the FG clones mitochondrial DNA too. Maybe it's advancements in science. From what I read it a different company that cloned the polo ponies.Â
The only way to "match" the MtDNA is to get an egg from the same female family to use for the shell of the egg. MtDNA comes from the egg shell and is only passed from the tail female family through females.
AQHA's DNA test to prove parentage is unable to determine the difference between a clone and his original. There is testing that can tell the difference between them but not the one AQHA uses. Once a foal is produced using the semen from the clone or the original there is no test to tell the difference because the MtDNA is lost.
This is not the case with female clones. They will pass on their MtDNA to all their foals. That's also a problem because that MtDNA is important genetic material that when a clone is made may have come from any type of mare. Since the cloning industry gets their material for the eggs from slaughter mares, who knows what they are.
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| Dreamin of 3cans - 2017-03-01 8:54 AM
I'm just a little, hardworking, horse loving barrel racer that could NEVER afford a Frenchmans Guy. I'd love to try one and love even more to own one. I considered breeding to Guys Duplicate. Now that you can have them DNA'd to prove the parents, registered isn't nearly as important to me. The only thing stopping me is I really don't have the time to invest in a colt while keeping 2 horses going, a full time job and being in the AF Reserves. JMHO
Never say never! I trained and sold 4 horses one year, so I could have some spending money at the Myers sale. I brought a FG home that I considered a "steal" (but still a lot of money for a horse LOL!) but she has been worth every penny so far. |
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I just read the headlines
Posts: 4483
| OregonBR - 2017-03-01 11:07 AM
Kaye - 2017-03-01 7:28 AM
 There also was a bunch of racing mules that did not perform like the original. (You can probably google it still) Maybe an issue with nature vs nurture? I know there was a big argument with mitochondrial DNA, but I see that some how they matched the FG clones mitochondrial DNA too. Maybe it's advancements in science. From what I read it a different company that cloned the polo ponies.Â
The only way to "match" the MtDNA is to get an egg from the same female family to use for the shell of the egg. MtDNA comes from the egg shell and is only passed from the tail female family through females.
AQHA's DNA test to prove parentage is unable to determine the difference between a clone and his original. There is testing that can tell the difference between them but not the one AQHA uses. Once a foal is produced using the semen from the clone or the original there is no test to tell the difference because the MtDNA is lost.
This is not the case with female clones. They will pass on their MtDNA to all their foals. That's also a problem because that MtDNA is important genetic material that when a clone is made may have come from any type of mare. Since the cloning industry gets their material for the eggs from slaughter mares, who knows what they are.
That is really interesting. Could it be that the polo ponies are using proven mares as the MtDNA donors and that is why they seem to be more success in the performance pen? |
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 That's White "Man" to You
Posts: 5515
| My position is evolving on clones. First of all AQHA registration doesn't mean that much to me. With the exception of perceived resell value, it does nothing. There are plenty of ways to prove what the horse is now days with DNA testing. I'd probably be willing to give one a try if the cost were considerably lower than the "real" version. For me, I see no real moral dilema that we aren't already participating in via frozen, shipped semen, ET, etc. FG offspring are obviously successfull in a variety of environments, so the nurture aspect is mute in my opinion. I would also assume that a "under performing" dose of MDNA from the clone would probably still be more successful than many stallion standing today. So in summary, depending on price, I might be willing to give it a chance. |
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| OregonBR - 2017-03-01 10:07 AM Kaye - 2017-03-01 7:28 AM There also was a bunch of racing mules that did not perform like the original. (You can probably google it still) Maybe an issue with nature vs nurture? I know there was a big argument with mitochondrial DNA, but I see that some how they matched the FG clones mitochondrial DNA too. Maybe it's advancements in science. From what I read it a different company that cloned the polo ponies. The only way to "match" the MtDNA is to get an egg from the same female family to use for the shell of the egg. MtDNA comes from the egg shell and is only passed from the tail female family through females. AQHA's DNA test to prove parentage is unable to determine the difference between a clone and his original. There is testing that can tell the difference between them but not the one AQHA uses. Once a foal is produced using the semen from the clone or the original there is no test to tell the difference because the MtDNA is lost. This is not the case with female clones. They will pass on their MtDNA to all their foals. That's also a problem because that MtDNA is important genetic material that when a clone is made may have come from any type of mare. Since the cloning industry gets their material for the eggs from slaughter mares, who knows what they are.
They must have used FG's sister then, because they are promoting it carries the exact mitochondrial DNA. |
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Champ
Posts: 19623
Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm | GLP - 2017-03-01 9:45 AM
OregonBR - 2017-03-01 11:07 AM
Kaye - 2017-03-01 7:28 AM
 There also was a bunch of racing mules that did not perform like the original. (You can probably google it still) Maybe an issue with nature vs nurture? I know there was a big argument with mitochondrial DNA, but I see that some how they matched the FG clones mitochondrial DNA too. Maybe it's advancements in science. From what I read it a different company that cloned the polo ponies.Â
The only way to "match" the MtDNA is to get an egg from the same female family to use for the shell of the egg. MtDNA comes from the egg shell and is only passed from the tail female family through females.
AQHA's DNA test to prove parentage is unable to determine the difference between a clone and his original. There is testing that can tell the difference between them but not the one AQHA uses. Once a foal is produced using the semen from the clone or the original there is no test to tell the difference because the MtDNA is lost.
This is not the case with female clones. They will pass on their MtDNA to all their foals. That's also a problem because that MtDNA is important genetic material that when a clone is made may have come from any type of mare. Since the cloning industry gets their material for the eggs from slaughter mares, who knows what they are.
That is really interesting. Could it be that the polo ponies are using proven mares as the MtDNA donors and that is why they seem to be more success in the performance pen?
Could have. I think I read that the owner of Dashing Phoebe used her eggs for her clone. |
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Champ
Posts: 19623
Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm | Kaye - 2017-03-01 9:51 AM
OregonBR - 2017-03-01 10:07 AM Kaye - 2017-03-01 7:28 AM  There also was a bunch of racing mules that did not perform like the original. (You can probably google it still) Maybe an issue with nature vs nurture? I know there was a big argument with mitochondrial DNA, but I see that some how they matched the FG clones mitochondrial DNA too. Maybe it's advancements in science. From what I read it a different company that cloned the polo ponies. The only way to "match" the MtDNA is to get an egg from the same female family to use for the shell of the egg. MtDNA comes from the egg shell and is only passed from the tail female family through females. AQHA's DNA test to prove parentage is unable to determine the difference between a clone and his original. There is testing that can tell the difference between them but not the one AQHA uses. Once a foal is produced using the semen from the clone or the original there is no test to tell the difference because the MtDNA is lost. This is not the case with female clones. They will pass on their MtDNA to all their foals. That's also a problem because that MtDNA is important genetic material that when a clone is made may have come from any type of mare. Since the cloning industry gets their material for the eggs from slaughter mares, who knows what they are.
Very possible. In which case the MtDNA is an exact match. So it's not even possible to determine the difference between FG and his clone. |
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Champ
Posts: 19623
Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm | For those interested in reading more about the importance of MtDNA, here's an article about the tail female line and it's influence.
https://www.speedhorse.com/spotlights/m.blog/101/the-tail-female-lin... |
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