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 Expert
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Location: Cocoa, Florida | CE's wrapn3 - 2017-06-02 2:18 PM
 I also think people over do therapies - Doing it unnecessarily and not using it for the proper reason.
Therapies as in chiropractic work? I can see that, I don't think you can over massage one though and loosen up those tight muscles. |
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Expert
Posts: 1612
Location: Cocoa, Florida | OregonBR - 2017-06-02 1:45 PM
Let me start by saying, I feed and have fed alfalfa for decades and it's an essential part of my feeding program. However, alfalfa while being a VERY good feed for horses, is not balanced. It has too much calcium and not enough phosphorous. Grass hay/pasture grass and unfortified grain is, on the other hand, higher in phosphorous and lower in calcium. So I use alfalfa to balance the Cal:Phos ratio and bring the protein level up in the horses diet (growing/immature horses, mares, babies and my stallion need it). IF one is feeding alfalfa as the only forage, they need to add a supplement that brings the phosphorous levels up in the total ration.
What about a mixed hay, I feed Timothy and alfalfa, it tends to have more Timothy in it though! |
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Expert
Posts: 1612
Location: Cocoa, Florida | So I sighed up on Thehorse.com and started reading about vitamins and minerals - here it is, 3rd paragraph
Fat-soluble vitamins As the name implies, these vitamins are only able
to dissolve in fat, not water. Vitamins
A, D, E, and K are fat-soluble and are absorbed from the intestinal tract with the assistance of small fat droplets. Unlike water-soluble vitamins, which are readily excreted in urine, fat-soluble vitamins can be stored in the body’s fatty tissues and in the liver. Thus, hypervitaminosis—a vita- min overdose—is possible and should be avoided by feeding only recommended amounts (particularly vitamin A). |
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  Champ
Posts: 19623
 
Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm | RnRJack - 2017-06-02 3:09 PM
OregonBR - 2017-06-02 1:45 PM
Let me start by saying, I feed and have fed alfalfa for decades and it's an essential part of my feeding program. However, alfalfa while being a VERY good feed for horses, is not balanced. It has too much calcium and not enough phosphorous. Grass hay/pasture grass and unfortified grain is, on the other hand, higher in phosphorous and lower in calcium. So I use alfalfa to balance the Cal:Phos ratio and bring the protein level up in the horses diet (growing/immature horses, mares, babies and my stallion need it). IF one is feeding alfalfa as the only forage, they need to add a supplement that brings the phosphorous levels up in the total ration.
What about a mixed hay, I feed Timothy and alfalfa, it tends to have more Timothy in it though!
Yes. I feed a mix of grass hay/pasture with a limited amount of alfalfa to bring the protein and calcium levels up. |
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Champ
Posts: 19623
Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm | RnRJack - 2017-06-02 3:23 PM
So I sighed up on Thehorse.com and started reading about vitamins and minerals - here it is, 3rd paragraph
Fat-soluble vitamins As the name implies, these vitamins are only able
to dissolve in fat, not water. Vitamins
A, D, E, and K are fat-soluble and are absorbed from the intestinal tract with the assistance of small fat droplets. Unlike water-soluble vitamins, which are readily excreted in urine, fat-soluble vitamins can be stored in the body’s fatty tissues and in the liver. Thus, hypervitaminosis—a vita- min overdose—is possible and should be avoided by feeding only recommended amounts (particularly vitamin A).
That's what I was referencing in another post I made on this feeding thread. |
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Expert
Posts: 1561
Location: North of where I want to be | I bought a little grade gelding from a girl in our barn(because she was literally driving him crazy) When she gave me the list of 7 supplements & Succeed he was on I about fell over. ALL but one was very heavily magnesium. When the vet calculated it out he was on about 25x more than what he needed and she was double dosing the Succeed because " well that would help the ulcers clear up faster"
I think good intention paired with a lack of knowledge/education is harmful. |
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 Take a Picture
Posts: 12841
| RnRJack - 2017-06-02 5:23 PM
So I sighed up on Thehorse.com and started reading about vitamins and minerals - here it is, 3rd paragraph
Fat-soluble vitamins As the name implies, these vitamins are only able
to dissolve in fat, not water. Vitamins
A, D, E, and K are fat-soluble and are absorbed from the intestinal tract with the assistance of small fat droplets. Unlike water-soluble vitamins, which are readily excreted in urine, fat-soluble vitamins can be stored in the body’s fatty tissues and in the liver. Thus, hypervitaminosis—a vita- min overdose—is possible and should be avoided by feeding only recommended amounts (particularly vitamin A).
In plain old English, fat soluble vitamins only need a tiny amount of fat to be absorbed. They are stored in the liver and fat while the water soluble vitamins are peed out. It is very difficult to get too many of the water soluble vitamins, vitamins B and C. Remember that kidneys and liver are the body's filters.
I often wonder about the death of Bling |
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 Neat Freak
Posts: 11216
Location: Wonderful Wyoming | streakysox - 2017-06-04 10:31 AM RnRJack - 2017-06-02 5:23 PM So I sighed up on Thehorse.com and started reading about vitamins and minerals - here it is, 3rd paragraph Fat-soluble vitamins As the name implies, these vitamins are only able to dissolve in fat, not water. Vitamins A, D, E, and K are fat-soluble and are absorbed from the intestinal tract with the assistance of small fat droplets. Unlike water-soluble vitamins, which are readily excreted in urine, fat-soluble vitamins can be stored in the body’s fatty tissues and in the liver. Thus, hypervitaminosis—a vita- min overdose—is possible and should be avoided by feeding only recommended amounts (particularly vitamin A). In plain old English, fat soluble vitamins only need a tiny amount of fat to be absorbed. They are stored in the liver and fat while the water soluble vitamins are peed out. It is very difficult to get too many of the water soluble vitamins, vitamins B and C. Remember that kidneys and liver are the body's filters. I often wonder about the death of Bling
She was a heavy heavy bleeder, someone that knows someone (so take this with a grain of salt) said she was having bleeding/lung issues pretty bad at the NFR. She obviously had a lot of heart to keep her winning ways, but I wonder if she would have lived longer had she been retired soon after and taken off lasix. Just a thought and not judging because it would be hard to not keep running a winner that was still trying so hard. |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 509
| Oregon br what do you suggest I have a gelding who gets straight alfalfa he needs no feed he gets to fat, I ride him six days a week to keep him fit.i need to balance his cal phos.i feed my other horse renew gold my gelding is super fat so I cut the rg out |
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| Test your ration (hay, 'grain', etc) at http://equi-analytical.com/ then if needed, customize a supplement to balance it. THE is great for this or you can add single ingredients yourself.
I think hair analysis is beneficial to know where your horse is. Over supplementation is for sure a problem...take iron of example - it cancels the body's ability to absorb copper and zinc - amung many other severe issues and most horses get their daily requirement through hay/pasture and their water source. BTW - Iron is what gives (most) mineral blocks and himalayan salt it's reddish-pink hue.
Excess iron cancels the absorption of copper and zinc- even if there is an "adequate" amount of those minerals available. Excess iron has many effects, including predisposition to infection, a predisposition to arthritis and increased risk of tendon/ligament problems, liver disease and altered glucose metabolism, including insulin resistance and overt diabetes. Eleanor Kellon, VMD
Now see what a copper and zinc deficiency can cause...
Copper supports enzymes that form the strengthening cross-links between collagen and elastin molecules in connective tissue. Deficiencies lead to abnormalities in bone, cartilage, tendons, ligaments, and arterial walls among the most dramatic consequences. In horses, copper deficiency has been linked to uterine artery rupture in mares, a fatal complication of labor. Copper deficiency is known to cause developmental bone disease in foals. From research in other animals we also know that copper deficiency has adverse effects in hair quality. Although it hasn't been studied in horses, remember that the ingredients and growth mechanisms for hair and the hoof are virtually identical.
Zinc performs a host of functions in the body. Structures on proteins called zinc fingers allow them to bind to DNA. Zinc fingers also influence the folding and structure of proteins. In enzyme systems, zinc is essential for pigment formation, antioxidant function, transport of carbon dioxide in the blood, bone building and remodeling, insulin production and release among others. Eleanor Kellon, VMD
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Champ
Posts: 19623
Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm | tin can - 2017-06-04 6:11 PM
Oregon br what do you suggest I have a gelding who gets straight alfalfa he needs no feed he gets to fat, I ride him six days a week to keep him fit.i need to balance his cal phos.i feed my other horse renew gold my gelding is super fat so I cut the rg out
There are supplement companies that have products that will balance your ration when you feed all alfalfa. Here's one. I've never used it. So this is not a personal endorsement. Simply trying to give you ways to find these products.
http://www.prognutrition.com/pn/products/proadvantage-diet-balancer...
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Expert
Posts: 1695
Location: Willows, CA | OregonBR - 2017-06-06 12:46 PM
tin can - 2017-06-04 6:11 PM
Oregon br what do you suggest I have a gelding who gets straight alfalfa he needs no feed he gets to fat, I ride him six days a week to keep him fit.i need to balance his cal phos.i feed my other horse renew gold my gelding is super fat so I cut the rg out
There are supplement companies that have products that will balance your ration when you feed all alfalfa. Here's one. I've never used it. So this is not a personal endorsement. Simply trying to give you ways to find these products.
http://www.prognutrition.com/pn/products/proadvantage-diet-balancer...
That may be a fine feed, but, looking at the ingredient list and analysis I can't see what that product actually balances with alfalfa. For most people, the biggest concern with straight alfalfa diets is the cal/phos ratio. This formula is cal/phos neutral, so no help there. This is what is frustrating with the term "ration balancer". People assume that all the potential holes are filled when they read the term. There are some true "ration balancers" on the market. Most of those are protein, and mineral supplements aimed at supporting poor quality hay in areas where better roughage is simply not available. The feed industry has really jumped on the Ration balancer term in recent years as a new category. |
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 Warrior Mom
Posts: 4400
| I remember using a "ration balancer " a long time ago, I used progressive grass balancer...I was less than pleased with the results and the amount of urine my horses were producing was insane, they were stalled. I believe it was 30% protein . |
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Champ
Posts: 19623
Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm | ProAdvantage® – Alfalfa Formula is a diet balancer concentrate containing sources of amino acids, vitamins, minerals, trace minerals and other nutrients. These nutrients are essential for healthy growth, development, reproduction and performance. ProAdvantage® – Alfalfa Formula should be fed to horses eating alfalfa hay.
That's what is says. I said I'd never used it. |
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Expert
Posts: 1612
Location: Cocoa, Florida | I see a lot of horse people these days doing the big alfalfa blocks free choice, more so then the coastle hay rolls, is this better for them
To have free choice alfalfa with the cal/phos ratios? |
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 Best of the Badlands
Location: You never know where I will show up...... | Nevertooold - 2017-06-02 1:59 PM I totally agree with OregonBR.
Had a friend that had a horse with selenium toxicity.
I can't feed any extra selenium to horses here. Some bagged feeds even contain more than I can feed. We are on the high end of normal as it is in this area. We have to test our hay, ect. And we have our mineral custom made with extra Copper & no Se added.
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Champ
Posts: 19623
Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm | want2chase3 - 2017-06-06 11:37 AM
I remember using a "ration balancer " a long time ago, I used progressive grass balancer...I was less than pleased with the results and the amount of urine my horses were producing was insane, they were stalled. I believe it was 30% protein .
How much did you feed?
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Warrior Mom
Posts: 4400
| OregonBR - 2017-06-07 10:35 AM
want2chase3 - 2017-06-06 11:37 AM
I remember using a "ration balancer " a long time ago, I used progressive grass balancer...I was less than pleased with the results and the amount of urine my horses were producing was insane, they were stalled. I believe it was 30% protein .
How much did you feed?
They were getting 2lbs a day. |
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Champ
Posts: 19623
Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm | An adult horse will get approximately 20 # of feed a day. If the average protein content of grass hay/pasture and/or grain is 10%. The supplement you were using is 30%.
So here's the math. If the total ration by the day is 20# of dry matter.
18 # x 10% = 1.8 pounds of protein provided by the grass/pasture and grain.
2 # x 30% = .6 pounds of protein provided by the supplement
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That's total of 2.4 pounds of protein in the entire diet per day.
Divide 2.4 by the total ration by weight (20#) = 12% protein in the total ration per day.
You're only raising protein by 2% for every day you feed the supplement.
It takes a lot more than 2 pounds @ 30% to raise the protein to a dangerous level. 12% is not even enough for a late pregnancy/lactating mare or her foal. |
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Expert
Posts: 1695
Location: Willows, CA | OregonBR - 2017-06-07 4:02 PM
An adult horse will get approximately 20 # of feed a day. If the average protein content of grass hay/pasture and/or grain is 10%. The supplement you were using is 30%.
So here's the math. If the total ration by the day is 20# of dry matter.
18 # x 10% = 1.8 pounds of protein provided by the grass/pasture and grain.
2 # x 30% = .6 pounds of protein provided by the supplement
_______________
That's total of 2.4 pounds of protein in the entire diet per day.
Divide 2.4 by the total ration by weight (20#) = 12% protein in the total ration per day.
You're only raising protein by 2% for every day you feed the supplement.
It takes a lot more than 2 pounds @ 30% to raise the protein to a dangerous level. 12% is not even enough for a late pregnancy/lactating mare or her foal.
While I did not take the time to confirm your math, your point is absolutely correct here. Where I have seen a protein supplement have value was exactly in the situation you pointed out, where the roughage source was below the protein needs of the horse and high amounts of grain based feed simply got in the way of digestive efficiency. Some hays are harder to digest and fast through the hind gut. This can also lead to a overall protein shortage in the diet that can't be overcome with grain based feed without greatly overfeeding it. In these cases the high protein "balancers" fed at a low rate can support better overall amino acid profiles and needs without introducing a disruptive level of starch and sugar. I only use these kinds of products in this situation. An alternative to this is to add a alfalfa source if you are in an area that safe quality alfalfa is available. Where the grass hay and / or pasture available is very weak, a combination of added alfalfa and a protein supplement can work to give your horse the overall daily protein amount that its body needs. |
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