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Extreme Veteran
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Location: Lost in the swamps | kk_sue - 2018-03-15 2:14 PM
imturnin3 - 2018-03-15 1:00 PM
Some thing to think about..
I had a gelding with sore hamstrings. Injected his hocks (upper and lower)less than a week later his hamstring soreness is GONE.
Also look into
Pssm
kissing spines.
Saddle soreness.
Hope you find it and it's and easy fix.
It doesn’t seem like saddle soreness because it’s behind where the saddle sits but who knows. I debated getting X-rays of her back to check for kissing spine but now I’m wondering if she was just out in her back that bad? Because after chiropractor she doesn’t seem sore at all
The chiro we use who is also a vet NEVER picked up the kissing spine on the one particular horse. The owner spent thousand thinking it was a training issue. And more on vets. She had a hunch after talking to someone who's horse just under went the surgery. She finally demanded a back x Ray after vets told her that was probably not his problem "don't even bother" and sure enough it was there and it was bad. |
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 Not Afraid to Work
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| I would highly suggest getting her back x-rayed and this is why. I have a gelding with "mild" kissing spine which I believe also had some soft tissue damage also. No issues ever with him until he took a bad spill.
His symptoms were very similar, he was extremely tight in his back. My vet who is also a chiro said adjustments would likely help but his back is so tight, the adjustments wouldn't stick. He was cinchy and I could barely run a brush over his back because his back was hard as a rock. This was behind where my saddle sits. I also would have back spasms and often had them when massaged. Again this horse never refused a barrel but his turning style was off. He was heavier in his turns, not dropping the same. Minor things. We started out with mesotherapy because he had never had an issue. This is a muscle relaxer, anti-inflammatory type injection, little tiny needles. He seemed fine. 6 months later (winter was in there so he wasn't worked much) and he started same symptoms. X-rayed him and sure enough it was KS. Not severe and if I could have afforded and MRI, I think we would have found more. I switched his workout routine and do regular massage and fingers crossed hes been back to running for a couple years.
ETA I have since had him horse chiro'd and he does feel better but unless he is super loose, it never sticks.
Edited by stayceem 2018-03-15 4:24 PM
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Expert
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| I just reread your post. The camping out is a sure sign of kissing spine, but also could be tightness in muscles due to PSSM. Agree with above- xray back and test for PSSM 1 and 2. For now it wouldn't hurt to just swtich to a PSSM diet- low starch and sugar with Omega 3 and Omega 6 (Rice bran and Veg oil is what I use) along with a good amino acid, electrolyte, and Vit E supplement. |
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 Expert
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Location: IL | Have you had her checked for a urinary tract infection? Friend had a mare that quit turning first and acted colicky, she had a UTI. Also I would treat for ulcers, I've seen several horses stop turning barrels from ulcers and back sore. |
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| kk_sue - 2018-03-15 1:23 PM imturnin3 - 2018-03-15 2:18 PM Yes!! I've seen horses with all of the above exhibit this behavior. As well as the kissing spine show up as what was thought to be si issues, and thought to be pssm. Horse couldn't turn first. But Inhaled second and third I’m not super familiar with pssm. Is it easy to test for? Can it be treated and managed if that is it?
You can test through AQHA, UC Davis or Animal Genetics for type 1. The other types can be tested using hair through EquiSeq - otherwise you can only test for them via muscle biopsy during a tie-up/episode (the biopsy will only provide a positive diagnosis but not give you the different variants.)
EVERYTHING you mentioned in your original post is consistent with the symptoms that people have reported with their positive horses. Definitely join the PSSM Forum Facebook group - as overwhelming as it is, the members of that group all want to help - for the most part.
Management really seems to depend on the variants and how many of them the horse has, but BALANCED nutrition is KEY for all of them.
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| merdth6 - 2018-03-15 3:38 PM
Have you had her checked for a urinary tract infection? Friend had a mare that quit turning first and acted colicky, she had a UTI. Also I would treat for ulcers, I've seen several horses stop turning barrels from ulcers and back sore.
I have not had her checked for a UTI but I do have her on zesterra for her stomach. I personally haven’t had luck with omeprazole before |
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Regular
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| lopnaround - 2018-03-15 3:35 PM
I just reread your post. The camping out is a sure sign of kissing spine, but also could be tightness in muscles due to PSSM. Agree with above- xray back and test for PSSM 1 and 2. For now it wouldn't hurt to just swtich to a PSSM diet- low starch and sugar with Omega 3 and Omega 6 (Rice bran and Veg oil is what I use) along with a good amino acid, electrolyte, and Vit E supplement.
Right now she is on pasture all day, gets alfalfa at night and gets 1/2 can of oats with Renew gold, vitamin E, electrolytes and MVP In-sync 4 |
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| Does she have Impressive breeding? Could you test for HYPP? |
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 The best bad guy on the internet
Posts: 3519
Location: Arizona | kk_sue - 2018-03-15 12:08 PM
*******EDITED***** videos of her first barrel attached
I have a 4 year old futurity horse that has been having the weirdest soundness issues lately then all of a sudden started stopping and turning right before first barrel when that has always been her money barrel she would nail it every time. I moved from Colorado to Texas about 6 weeks ago and before I left Colorado her back and hamstrings were really tight so I had PEMF therapy done a couple times. After I got down to Texas about a week later I think she tied up on me. (Yes she was already on daily electrolytes and has access to a salt block since before we left Colorado ) I went to go clean out waters and she was standing in the middle of her pen pawing aggressively then she stopped with her head down and her leg stretched forwards and her eyes closed and wobbled for a good 30 seconds before starting to paw again. I went to take her temp and when I lifted her blanket the right side of her hindquarters were tensed up and twitching really bad. I took her to the vet and her blood work came back normal her muscle enzymes may have been just slightly elevated. She was put on fluids and the vet said she colicked. But she was never off of food or water and had been going to the bathroom completely normally and wasn’t acting colicky to me at all. The next week she got an abscess I took her in and they did X-rays just to be sure that’s all it was because it wasn’t one we could really see because it was in the bulb of her heel. Her feet look great in X-ray and I got the abscess cleared up. I took her back into the vet because her back is still sore and she just doesn’t seem as powerful in her turns as usual. She was flexion tested positive on the stifle so they X-rayed stifles and those looked good and they couldn’t feel any fluid in them. They said it could be the SI but we decided to try some acupuncture and run her on Robaxin. A few days later she went to a barrel race and ran right at the top with some TOUGH horses. But I went back to the vet the next day because her back was still just hurting her. There was a different vet looking at her and completely out of nowhere he says she has EPM. She does stand camped out in the back end sometimes and she does walk a little camped out sometimes. When she gets into the trailer or walks over something she puts one foot at a time with her front feet then bunny hops with her back feet but other than that she hasn’t showed me any signs at all. She doesn’t stumble. The night before she ran with very high level horses without an issue so I kinda had a hard time believing him. He said horses that have it have a higher chance of “colic” and abscesses. But I started her on the medication (something that starts with a t in DMSO. I’d have to go look at the bottle ). 4 days later out of nowhere she starts acting like she’s going to bite your head off if you touch anywhere under her belly from between her front legs all the way to between her back legs. I had a deep tissue massage and chiropractor done on her because her back problem was still there and I started giving her zesterra because I thought maybe her stomach was hurting. Her back was FINALLY better and didn’t seem like it’s bothering her at all anymore. I went to make a run the next day and she just shut down HARD and turned before first barrel. I exhibitioned her the exact same as always and I rode her like I always do. I ran her the next day and I was pushing he past first I was still sitting forward and two handed and she did the same thing again. I took her to a different arena a few days later that was pretty open behind first and I got her around it but I was pulling her off of it and kicking with my inside leg and doing everything I could and we still hit it. This is very unlike her and for a 4 year old she is very consistent and always very honest. It’s got to be some soundness thing going on. The blood test for EPM came back and my vet said it was 55%. She doesn’t try to bite my head off anymore touching under her belly but she still definitely isn’t happy about it. I am at a complete loss on what to do.
First video is of her ducking. Second video was taken just over a week earlier and was how her first consistently was prior to her ducking it.
https://youtu.be/LJe6j_tO9_4
https://youtu.be/urUp0lFTwpc
I watched your video several times. I see no soundness issue at all. I think she just got way too low and in a bad position and couldn't make that turn is all. Have you ran her again? |
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| LIVE2RUN - 2018-03-15 4:13 PM
kk_sue - 2018-03-15 12:08 PM
*******EDITED***** videos of her first barrel attached
I have a 4 year old futurity horse that has been having the weirdest soundness issues lately then all of a sudden started stopping and turning right before first barrel when that has always been her money barrel she would nail it every time. I moved from Colorado to Texas about 6 weeks ago and before I left Colorado her back and hamstrings were really tight so I had PEMF therapy done a couple times. After I got down to Texas about a week later I think she tied up on me. (Yes she was already on daily electrolytes and has access to a salt block since before we left Colorado ) I went to go clean out waters and she was standing in the middle of her pen pawing aggressively then she stopped with her head down and her leg stretched forwards and her eyes closed and wobbled for a good 30 seconds before starting to paw again. I went to take her temp and when I lifted her blanket the right side of her hindquarters were tensed up and twitching really bad. I took her to the vet and her blood work came back normal her muscle enzymes may have been just slightly elevated. She was put on fluids and the vet said she colicked. But she was never off of food or water and had been going to the bathroom completely normally and wasn’t acting colicky to me at all. The next week she got an abscess I took her in and they did X-rays just to be sure that’s all it was because it wasn’t one we could really see because it was in the bulb of her heel. Her feet look great in X-ray and I got the abscess cleared up. I took her back into the vet because her back is still sore and she just doesn’t seem as powerful in her turns as usual. She was flexion tested positive on the stifle so they X-rayed stifles and those looked good and they couldn’t feel any fluid in them. They said it could be the SI but we decided to try some acupuncture and run her on Robaxin. A few days later she went to a barrel race and ran right at the top with some TOUGH horses. But I went back to the vet the next day because her back was still just hurting her. There was a different vet looking at her and completely out of nowhere he says she has EPM. She does stand camped out in the back end sometimes and she does walk a little camped out sometimes. When she gets into the trailer or walks over something she puts one foot at a time with her front feet then bunny hops with her back feet but other than that she hasn’t showed me any signs at all. She doesn’t stumble. The night before she ran with very high level horses without an issue so I kinda had a hard time believing him. He said horses that have it have a higher chance of “colic” and abscesses. But I started her on the medication (something that starts with a t in DMSO. I’d have to go look at the bottle ). 4 days later out of nowhere she starts acting like she’s going to bite your head off if you touch anywhere under her belly from between her front legs all the way to between her back legs. I had a deep tissue massage and chiropractor done on her because her back problem was still there and I started giving her zesterra because I thought maybe her stomach was hurting. Her back was FINALLY better and didn’t seem like it’s bothering her at all anymore. I went to make a run the next day and she just shut down HARD and turned before first barrel. I exhibitioned her the exact same as always and I rode her like I always do. I ran her the next day and I was pushing he past first I was still sitting forward and two handed and she did the same thing again. I took her to a different arena a few days later that was pretty open behind first and I got her around it but I was pulling her off of it and kicking with my inside leg and doing everything I could and we still hit it. This is very unlike her and for a 4 year old she is very consistent and always very honest. It’s got to be some soundness thing going on. The blood test for EPM came back and my vet said it was 55%. She doesn’t try to bite my head off anymore touching under her belly but she still definitely isn’t happy about it. I am at a complete loss on what to do.
First video is of her ducking. Second video was taken just over a week earlier and was how her first consistently was prior to her ducking it.
https://youtu.be/LJe6j_tO9_4
https://youtu.be/urUp0lFTwpc
I watched your video several times. I see no soundness issue at all. I think she just got way too low and in a bad position and couldn't make that turn is all. Have you ran her again?
I’ve ran her in different pens and she does the same thing. She getting down too low because that’s when she starts to duck it. I know there’s for sure a lot of soundness issues going on it’s just trying to get them pinpointed and treated that’s the issue but she’s definitely not a happy pony right now soundness wise. But if you watch the video of how she normally turns her style is to just get real low
Edited by kk_sue 2018-03-15 5:37 PM
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| Katielovestbs - 2018-03-15 4:06 PM
Does she have Impressive breeding? Could you test for HYPP?
I don’t think she’s impressive bred. She’s all highbrow cat, smart little Lena and peptoboonsmal
Edited by kk_sue 2018-03-15 5:35 PM
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Posts: 602
| Could it be as simple as an eye problem? Maybe there is something wrong with her right eye and she is trying to turn but cant see it. |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 542
| I'm going to get flamed for this but..... I see it as you have 3 options
1. go to Elgin, Outlaw, or ESMS spend a fortune to maybe get an answer
2. give time off, which is sometimes wasted or even worse in the case of some injuries
3. This one is a two sided coin tune her until she blatantly shows you the problem, work her so hard whatever hurts is bad enough to be
visible or hopefully you tune her hard and you fix the problem
IMO the witch is shutting you down. Tune her booty.
I'll say this I've seen many horses in futuries start with one trainer and it starts ducking. The owner sends to another trainer and no vetting was done just training and they had different hands. Ask yourself....did you start riding her different now that you felt her confidence and she was being more consistent? Sometimes in that small transition from green colt to solid colt ppl stop doing the helping colt things and start sending them forgetting they are still babies.
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 A Somebody to Everybody
Posts: 41354
Location: Under The Big Sky Of Texas | What Vet are you going too here in Texas? Going to the right Vet will make all the differents in the world.. |
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| Southtxponygirl - 2018-03-15 4:44 PM
What Vet are you going too here in Texas? Going to the right Vet will make all the differents in the world..
I had been taking her to Elgin |
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| runfastturnsmooth - 2018-03-15 4:43 PM
I'm going to get flamed for this but..... I see it as you have 3 options
1. go to Elgin, Outlaw, or ESMS spend a fortune to maybe get an answer
2. give time off, which is sometimes wasted or even worse in the case of some injuries
3. This one is a two sided coin tune her until she blatantly shows you the problem, work her so hard whatever hurts is bad enough to be
visible or hopefully you tune her hard and you fix the problem
IMO the witch is shutting you down. Tune her booty.
I'll say this I've seen many horses in futuries start with one trainer and it starts ducking. The owner sends to another trainer and no vetting was done just training and they had different hands. Ask yourself....did you start riding her different now that you felt her confidence and she was being more consistent? Sometimes in that small transition from green colt to solid colt ppl stop doing the helping colt things and start sending them forgetting they are still babies.
We’ve been going to Elgin. It’s just not a training issue she has a million symptoms for soundness issues other than ducking. In the mean time yes I have been tuning and treating it as a training issue but that doesn’t mean I’ll ignore soundness. I am the only person that has ever rode this horse and she is very well trained. For her to go from nailing it every time to ducking it every time without even a transition period where she started to cheat and short me more and more doesn’t even make sense without an underlying cause. Especially with everything else going on. If all I do is drill her and ignore everything I would be a bad trainer. If she is blatantly telling me hey I know how to do this I just don’t want to because it hurts and I say I don’t care I’m going to keep jamming it into your head anyways eventually she’s going to give me the big middle finger and we’ll be set even farther back. She is very smart and does not like to be constantly picked at. Training is not just riding it’s listening to what they tell you because they will tell you what they need.
Edited by kk_sue 2018-03-15 6:53 PM
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A Somebody to Everybody
Posts: 41354
Location: Under The Big Sky Of Texas | kk_sue - 2018-03-15 6:20 PM Southtxponygirl - 2018-03-15 4:44 PM What Vet are you going too here in Texas? Going to the right Vet will make all the differents in the world.. I had been taking her to Elgin
Well you are in good hands then, hope that they can get this all figured out for you..And wanted to say welcome to Texas, just wish it was in a different way as in a good/happy thread  |
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Posts: 52
| Southtxponygirl - 2018-03-15 5:30 PM
kk_sue - 2018-03-15 6:20 PM Southtxponygirl - 2018-03-15 4:44 PM What Vet are you going too here in Texas? Going to the right Vet will make all the differents in the world.. I had been taking her to Elgin
Thank you! We’ve been loving it down here except for living at the vet lol |
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Location: in the ozone | imturnin3 - 2018-03-15 2:33 PM
UC Davis does testing. There is pssm 1 and 2. Treatment involves diet changes and medications.
UC Davis does NOT test for PSSM2. There are many labs that can test for PSSM1 (or the full 5 panel - if you have a QH, you might want to go through AQHA so it's on the horse's record). The ONLY lab that does dna hair testing for the variants of PSSM2 is EquiSeq. |
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Location: in the ozone | kk_sue - 2018-03-15 12:08 PM
*******EDITED***** videos of her first barrel attached
I have a 4 year old futurity horse that has been having the weirdest soundness issues lately then all of a sudden started stopping and turning right before first barrel when that has always been her money barrel she would nail it every time. I moved from Colorado to Texas about 6 weeks ago and before I left Colorado her back and hamstrings were really tight so I had PEMF therapy done a couple times. After I got down to Texas about a week later I think she tied up on me. (Yes she was already on daily electrolytes and has access to a salt block since before we left Colorado ) I went to go clean out waters and she was standing in the middle of her pen pawing aggressively then she stopped with her head down and her leg stretched forwards and her eyes closed and wobbled for a good 30 seconds before starting to paw again. I went to take her temp and when I lifted her blanket the right side of her hindquarters were tensed up and twitching really bad. I took her to the vet and her blood work came back normal her muscle enzymes may have been just slightly elevated. She was put on fluids and the vet said she colicked. But she was never off of food or water and had been going to the bathroom completely normally and wasn’t acting colicky to me at all. The next week she got an abscess I took her in and they did X-rays just to be sure that’s all it was because it wasn’t one we could really see because it was in the bulb of her heel. Her feet look great in X-ray and I got the abscess cleared up. I took her back into the vet because her back is still sore and she just doesn’t seem as powerful in her turns as usual. She was flexion tested positive on the stifle so they X-rayed stifles and those looked good and they couldn’t feel any fluid in them. They said it could be the SI but we decided to try some acupuncture and run her on Robaxin. A few days later she went to a barrel race and ran right at the top with some TOUGH horses. But I went back to the vet the next day because her back was still just hurting her. There was a different vet looking at her and completely out of nowhere he says she has EPM. She does stand camped out in the back end sometimes and she does walk a little camped out sometimes. When she gets into the trailer or walks over something she puts one foot at a time with her front feet then bunny hops with her back feet but other than that she hasn’t showed me any signs at all. She doesn’t stumble. The night before she ran with very high level horses without an issue so I kinda had a hard time believing him. He said horses that have it have a higher chance of “colic” and abscesses. But I started her on the medication (something that starts with a t in DMSO. I’d have to go look at the bottle ). 4 days later out of nowhere she starts acting like she’s going to bite your head off if you touch anywhere under her belly from between her front legs all the way to between her back legs. I had a deep tissue massage and chiropractor done on her because her back problem was still there and I started giving her zesterra because I thought maybe her stomach was hurting. Her back was FINALLY better and didn’t seem like it’s bothering her at all anymore. I went to make a run the next day and she just shut down HARD and turned before first barrel. I exhibitioned her the exact same as always and I rode her like I always do. I ran her the next day and I was pushing he past first I was still sitting forward and two handed and she did the same thing again. I took her to a different arena a few days later that was pretty open behind first and I got her around it but I was pulling her off of it and kicking with my inside leg and doing everything I could and we still hit it. This is very unlike her and for a 4 year old she is very consistent and always very honest. It’s got to be some soundness thing going on. The blood test for EPM came back and my vet said it was 55%. She doesn’t try to bite my head off anymore touching under her belly but she still definitely isn’t happy about it. I am at a complete loss on what to do.
First video is of her ducking. Second video was taken just over a week earlier and was how her first consistently was prior to her ducking it.
https://youtu.be/LJe6j_tO9_4
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=urUp0lFTwpc
Do you have this horse on allbreedpedigree.com? You are describing so many PSSM2 symptoms. Off & one weird lamenesses that vets can't pinpoint/fix; the extremely tight back & hamstrings; tying up (MANY vets think it is colic - as do other people - since they are looking for the "solid tying up" where a horse doesn't move - these horses can have what LOOKS like a milder tying up (it's not really - it's still extremely painful); the muscle twitching as they have muscle episodes; pawing hard, trying to stretch out various areas of their body, traveling with head way down; abscesses; body soreness all over; ulcers; bunny hoping in the back when cantering, etc. There is a great group on FB - PSSM Forum (NOT the one that says about 5 Panel testing). If you post your horse's pedigree on there and describe the symptoms, you will get much help. These horses just HURT - so severely. (I saw you posted about treating them also - there are suggested feeding changes, managing, etc BUT it's best to know for sure what you are dealing with - if it's PSSM1 and one or more of the PSSM2 variants, etc. Some respond to changes beautifully, some don't. If it is PSSM2, it is a muscle disease & not a good life long prognosis. The vets don't normally accept/recognize the dna hair testing for the PSSM2 variants, BUT it is the best way to go. Vets will push the muscle biopsy but that does NOT give you a clear picture of what you are dealing with AND there are a lot of false results too. |
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