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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1045
 
| wyoming barrel racer - 2018-09-04 7:30 PM
mmfarms - 2018-09-04 6:22 PM casualdust07 - 2018-09-04 6:48 PM mmfarms - 2018-09-04 4:47 PM casualdust07 - 2018-09-04 2:56 PM I think you mean winstrol instead of windstraw So what i would do is i would start from the foot up with blocking... and I would do a peroneal tibial nerve block. If it’s above the hock he shouldn’t improve after the block, but should if it’s below. It’s really hard to prove hip pain in a horse, and not much you can do about it other than rest and alternative medicine. A bone scan may be helpful if you’re really convinced it’s in the hip and not elsewhere. What meds did you use for the EPM treatment? Did your vet think he looked neurologic? Also, if there’s like a 60-70% improvement after a stifle block we consider that a successful block. There’s so many components to stifle pain that aren’t articular you rarely get 100% improvement even if you’re dang convinced the problem is within the joint pouch you’re blocking. It’s also possible that if there is some sort of hip Injury, it’s going to take a long time to improve. They did block him. As I said he was better in a circle but on the straightaway he was still off. The vet told me I should just treat him for EPM and not waste the Money on the test. Excuse my spelling...i had never even heard of this shot nor do I want my guy to have another one. EPM med was Diclazuril 8.3%...Levaminsole 3% and vitamin E 10,000 IU. He is high on his left hip. You can see it from the back clearly and I can see it standing at his side also. Well I'm sad to think I might be off him for a while. I am a sponsor in a barrel race for childhood cancer awareness and it is this weekend. It is close to my heart since my baby girl battled cancer at the age of 7. Thank you for your input. Are you a vet? Yes you are a vet. The stifles also had fluid on them...vet said prob secondary to where the pain is. Yeah that’s unfortunate for sure. I do agree with the not testing for EPM because there’s such a grey area with the testing anyway. The meds you used were good, I like that combination. It sounds like you’ve got a frustrating case for sure. All of your bases were covered pretty much other than ultrasounding your suspensories. I would be scratching my head too if there was no improvement after everything you’ve done. I feel your pain on the time off. My 4yo filly this year started the year phenomenally. She was winning three saddles where I run, open 1D, Adult 1D, and novice horse. Out of the blue she somehow ended up with bone edema in her front feet and I’ve been off her since May. She had won the last two races I went to...hit a barrel to break a record at another. I did the MRI and everything. And she’s just healing slow. Slower than they thought. I was supposed to be back on her and it’s looking like she needs another month or two at least. We definitely lost the novice saddle, but I’m on another horse who’s keeping my head above water for the other two. I'm past depressed. He is my only horse so I don't have a back up to run. I feel your pain too...especially winning and then getting hurt. I wish they could talk.
I will for sure have it done |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1045
| halter_ego - 2018-09-04 7:33 PM
 I have had 2 seperate horses correctly diagnosed with "hip issues" via rectal ultrasound. One has spurs in his Si joints, the other had a bad (permanant) injury with seperation and soft tissue damage. I am not sure if you are using a performance horse vet that specialzes in lameness, but although the inital cost can be quite high, it is so much cheaper than guessing and chasing shadows. I sort of comapre it to going to general practioner for a knee replacement instead of an orthopedic surgeon, human doctors specialize, I feel it is the same for horses.
I use Oak Ridge. That's all they specialize in. |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1045
| WetSaddleBlankets - 2018-09-04 9:03 PM
 high on one side? What do you mean exactly? Do you mean they are asymmetrical... One hip is physically lower? I'd be worried about a fractured pelvis or sacroiliac subluxation of the ligaments. My mare came up lower on her left tuber sacrale and via rectal ultrasound they found a fracture on her pelvis. 2 years later she's healed but lower on the left tuber sacrale. The other injury, a subluxation, my best friends mare was higher on the left tuber sacrle because she tore the sacroiliac ligament. Both injures show a Lower/higher tuber sacrale. Is that where you are seeing the difference is in the hip/pelvis or the tuber sacrale ?
His left hip is not even with his right it is higher. After his injections I was told to have him chiroed and after he was worked on his left hip was even with his right but it didn't stay that way. |
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Gettin Jiggy Wit It
Posts: 2734
  
| mmfarms - 2018-09-04 9:24 PM
WetSaddleBlankets - 2018-09-04 9:03 PM
 high on one side? What do you mean exactly? Do you mean they are asymmetrical... One hip is physically lower? I'd be worried about a fractured pelvis or sacroiliac subluxation of the ligaments. My mare came up lower on her left tuber sacrale and via rectal ultrasound they found a fracture on her pelvis. 2 years later she's healed but lower on the left tuber sacrale. The other injury, a subluxation, my best friends mare was higher on the left tuber sacrle because she tore the sacroiliac ligament. Both injures show a Lower/higher tuber sacrale. Is that where you are seeing the difference is in the hip/pelvis or the tuber sacrale ?
His left hip is not even with his right it is higher. After his injections I was told to have him chiroed and after he was worked on his left hip was even with his right but it didn't stay that way.
 chiro won't fix a physically lower hip. If it did I'd be on that asap since my mare is permanently lower. Sadly if there is a fracture, chiro is something you absolutely do not want to do because you could displace the fracture. If it's physically lower definitely like Wyoming said, get a rectal ultrasound from a good lameness vet it's good you had the si injected tho. Good luck and keep us posted! |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1045
| WetSaddleBlankets - 2018-09-04 9:29 PM
mmfarms - 2018-09-04 9:24 PM
WetSaddleBlankets - 2018-09-04 9:03 PM
 high on one side? What do you mean exactly? Do you mean they are asymmetrical... One hip is physically lower? I'd be worried about a fractured pelvis or sacroiliac subluxation of the ligaments. My mare came up lower on her left tuber sacrale and via rectal ultrasound they found a fracture on her pelvis. 2 years later she's healed but lower on the left tuber sacrale. The other injury, a subluxation, my best friends mare was higher on the left tuber sacrle because she tore the sacroiliac ligament. Both injures show a Lower/higher tuber sacrale. Is that where you are seeing the difference is in the hip/pelvis or the tuber sacrale ?
His left hip is not even with his right it is higher. After his injections I was told to have him chiroed and after he was worked on his left hip was even with his right but it didn't stay that way. chiro won't fix a physically lower hip. If it did I'd be on that asap since my mare is permanently lower. Sadly if there is a fracture, chiro is something you absolutely do not want to do because you could displace the fracture. If it's physically lower definitely like Wyoming said, get a rectal ultrasound from a good lameness vet it's good you had the si injected tho. Good luck and keep us posted!
He is only sore on his left side. Acupuncture showed increased pain on his left side...butt hip area. I took him to the chiro because the vet told me to after his hock and stifle injections. He started swinging his butt around the barrel instead of dropping it like he always,does and he was hitting hard on his front end when slowing him down for his pocket. After this abnormal run he was limping on his left hind. And you know the rest of the story.They have not injected his SI.
Edited by mmfarms 2018-09-04 11:00 PM
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 Scooters Savior
Location: "Si Fi" Ville | I’m a little puzzled by the EPM meds since he traveled better in a circle, I woulda assumed not EPM.
The rectal ultrasound exam would be my choice if I had this issue. I snapped a pic of this thread for future reference. A lot of really good advice! |
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Boot Detective
Posts: 1898
| I sent you a PM with some pertinent information. I also want to add that I think this horse has an injury, not EPM but since EPM has been mentioned, I don't know why vets say it is cheaper to treat them than to test them for it and rule it out. That is not true. I have had several horses tested for EPM via a blood test and it cost about $60 and then you know for sure. If they do have it, you need to treat them for 2 months for best results. It's expensive to treat. The blood test is not 100% accurate but it is pretty reliable. The test using spinal fluid is more expensive and more accurate but I'm content doing the blood test.
Something you can do to sort of check one for EPM is cross their hind feet or place one hind foot right in front of the other. That is not a natural way for them to stand and they should move a foot within 30 seconds or less. If they stand that way for a minute or so, it is more likely they have EPM and can't tell where their hind feet are. You can also cross their front feet. Also use a whip and a short lead rope and make them work a tight circle around you. Watch to see if they start stepping on themselves (sign of EPM) or do they continuously keep stepping up underneath themselves with the inside hind leg like they should? With them standing still or trotting a straight line, push pretty hard and sudden on the side of their hip to stagger them and see if they lose their balance or struggle to recover. Sometimes they will pull their tail to one side a few times while trotting a straight line to see if they are weak on one side. I know EPM is a problem but I also think it may be overdiagnosed when they simply don't know what is wrong with the horse. |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1045
| treasurehunter - 2018-09-05 2:10 AM
I’m a little puzzled by the EPM meds since he traveled better in a circle, I woulda assumed not EPM.
The rectal ultrasound exam would be my choice if I had this issue. I snapped a pic of this thread for future reference. A lot of really good advice!
The first vet is the one that treated him for EPM. He never worked him in a circle just straight away. He had been tripping alot too and I already had 2 horses test positive for it so I opted to treat him for it. Actually another horse I used to own was diagnosed through acupuncture. When she told me he was hot on his EPM points I basically called her silly. I took him home (and by the way he was showing no signs.)...after a couple of days I got scared and took him to a local vet just to pull blood and send it off...that vet laughed at me for doing it. Test was positive...very high so I'm a big believer in acupuncture. So I just bypassed the 150 blood test and treated this gelding. |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1045
| quickdraw - 2018-09-05 4:01 AM
I sent you a PM with some pertinent information. I also want to add that I think this horse has an injury, not EPM but since EPM has been mentioned, I don't know why vets say it is cheaper to treat them than to test them for it and rule it out. That is not true. I have had several horses tested for EPM via a blood test and it cost about $60 and then you know for sure. If they do have it, you need to treat them for 2 months for best results. It's expensive to treat. The blood test is not 100% accurate but it is pretty reliable. The test using spinal fluid is more expensive and more accurate but I'm content doing the blood test.
Something you can do to sort of check one for EPM is cross their hind feet or place one hind foot right in front of the other. That is not a natural way for them to stand and they should move a foot within 30 seconds or less. If they stand that way for a minute or so, it is more likely they have EPM and can't tell where their hind feet are. You can also cross their front feet. Also use a whip and a short lead rope and make them work a tight circle around you. Watch to see if they start stepping on themselves (sign of EPM) or do they continuously keep stepping up underneath themselves with the inside hind leg like they should? With them standing still or trotting a straight line, push pretty hard and sudden on the side of their hip to stagger them and see if they lose their balance or struggle to recover. Sometimes they will pull their tail to one side a few times while trotting a straight line to see if they are weak on one side. I know EPM is a problem but I also think it may be overdiagnosed when they simply don't know what is wrong with the horse.
The test here is 150. I have had 2 horses diagnosed with EPM. One of them was showing no signs. I had acupuncture done on him for his shoulder and the vet said he was hot on his EPM points....i called her silly and took him home. After a couple of days I got scared and took him to a local vet to have blood pulled and sent off. He laughed at me and told me I was wasting my money because my horse looked and acted fine. Test came back positive and his reading was very high so that's another reason I did it. |
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  Neat Freak
Posts: 11216
Location: Wonderful Wyoming | mmfarms - 2018-09-04 9:08 PM
WetSaddleBlankets - 2018-09-04 9:29 PM
mmfarms - 2018-09-04 9:24 PM
WetSaddleBlankets - 2018-09-04 9:03 PM
 high on one side? What do you mean exactly? Do you mean they are asymmetrical... One hip is physically lower? I'd be worried about a fractured pelvis or sacroiliac subluxation of the ligaments. My mare came up lower on her left tuber sacrale and via rectal ultrasound they found a fracture on her pelvis. 2 years later she's healed but lower on the left tuber sacrale. The other injury, a subluxation, my best friends mare was higher on the left tuber sacrle because she tore the sacroiliac ligament. Both injures show a Lower/higher tuber sacrale. Is that where you are seeing the difference is in the hip/pelvis or the tuber sacrale ?
His left hip is not even with his right it is higher. After his injections I was told to have him chiroed and after he was worked on his left hip was even with his right but it didn't stay that way. chiro won't fix a physically lower hip. If it did I'd be on that asap since my mare is permanently lower. Sadly if there is a fracture, chiro is something you absolutely do not want to do because you could displace the fracture. If it's physically lower definitely like Wyoming said, get a rectal ultrasound from a good lameness vet it's good you had the si injected tho. Good luck and keep us posted!
He is only sore on his left side. Acupuncture showed increased pain on his left side...butt hip area. I took him to the chiro because the vet told me to after his hock and stifle injections. He started swinging his butt around the barrel instead of dropping it like he always,does and he was hitting hard on his front end when slowing him down for his pocket. After this abnormal run he was limping on his left hind. And you know the rest of the story.They have not injected his SI.
This is how mine with the broken pelvis was running. Would flat turn first, swing around 2nd and nearly be a run off and then would wrap 3rd and run home. When he slowed up and jigged out of the gate he was limping ever so slightly in the hind end. I have a video somewhere. |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1045
| wyoming barrel racer - 2018-09-05 11:11 AM
mmfarms - 2018-09-04 9:08 PM
WetSaddleBlankets - 2018-09-04 9:29 PM
mmfarms - 2018-09-04 9:24 PM
WetSaddleBlankets - 2018-09-04 9:03 PM
 high on one side? What do you mean exactly? Do you mean they are asymmetrical... One hip is physically lower? I'd be worried about a fractured pelvis or sacroiliac subluxation of the ligaments. My mare came up lower on her left tuber sacrale and via rectal ultrasound they found a fracture on her pelvis. 2 years later she's healed but lower on the left tuber sacrale. The other injury, a subluxation, my best friends mare was higher on the left tuber sacrle because she tore the sacroiliac ligament. Both injures show a Lower/higher tuber sacrale. Is that where you are seeing the difference is in the hip/pelvis or the tuber sacrale ?
His left hip is not even with his right it is higher. After his injections I was told to have him chiroed and after he was worked on his left hip was even with his right but it didn't stay that way. chiro won't fix a physically lower hip. If it did I'd be on that asap since my mare is permanently lower. Sadly if there is a fracture, chiro is something you absolutely do not want to do because you could displace the fracture. If it's physically lower definitely like Wyoming said, get a rectal ultrasound from a good lameness vet it's good you had the si injected tho. Good luck and keep us posted!
He is only sore on his left side. Acupuncture showed increased pain on his left side...butt hip area. I took him to the chiro because the vet told me to after his hock and stifle injections. He started swinging his butt around the barrel instead of dropping it like he always,does and he was hitting hard on his front end when slowing him down for his pocket. After this abnormal run he was limping on his left hind. And you know the rest of the story.They have not injected his SI.
This is how mine with the broken pelvis was running. Would flat turn first, swing around 2nd and nearly be a run off and then would wrap 3rd and run home. When he slowed up and jigged out of the gate he was limping ever so slightly in the hind end. I have a video somewhere.
I am headed to oak ridge now. He is worse today :( |
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Go Get Em!
Posts: 13503
Location: OH. IO | Â prayers for you and your boy,please update when you can. |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1045
| My gelding is not lame....his back end isn't working...EPM .....Dr Hague said some drugs do not work on some horses. He is,now on Levamisole and Decoquinate 480 mg packets. His hinny is like jello. In 2 days he has basically went to pot. I assume the windsrol shot kept him looking good for a month. He has lost 50 pounds in a week. I could not get him to Hague when all his problems surfaced so I used another vet. ...who injected his hocks and stifles...put him on his EPM med and gave him the windsrol injection. He acts like he doesn't know where his backend is. So now to treat him again. Thank you all for your input and your pm's with encouraging words. It is very much appreciated.
Edited by mmfarms 2018-09-05 6:30 PM
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Go Get Em!
Posts: 13503
Location: OH. IO | mmfarms - 2018-09-05 7:12 PM
My gelding is not lame....his back end isn't working...EPM .....Dr Hague said some drugs do not work on some horses. He is,now on Levamisole and Decoquinate 480 mg packets. His hinny is like jello. In 2 days he has basically went to pot. I assume the windsrol shot kept him looking good for a month. He has lost 50 pounds in a week. I could not get him to Hague when all his problems surfaced so I used another vet. ...who injected his hocks and stifles...put him on his EPM med and gave him the windsrol injection. He acts like he doesn't know where his backend is. So now to treat him again. Thank you all for your input and your pm's with encouraging words. It is very much appreciated.
 oh man,I'm sorry for your boy,hopefully he will get better with this treatment,keep us posted,many prayers. |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1045
| jake16 - 2018-09-05 7:05 PM
mmfarms - 2018-09-05 7:12 PM
My gelding is not lame....his back end isn't working...EPM .....Dr Hague said some drugs do not work on some horses. He is,now on Levamisole and Decoquinate 480 mg packets. His hinny is like jello. In 2 days he has basically went to pot. I assume the windsrol shot kept him looking good for a month. He has lost 50 pounds in a week. I could not get him to Hague when all his problems surfaced so I used another vet. ...who injected his hocks and stifles...put him on his EPM med and gave him the windsrol injection. He acts like he doesn't know where his backend is. So now to treat him again. Thank you all for your input and your pm's with encouraging words. It is very much appreciated.
 oh man,I'm sorry for your boy,hopefully he will get better with this treatment,keep us posted,many prayers.
Thank You! I just treated him for it. But I guess we will go another round |
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Neat Freak
Posts: 11216
Location: Wonderful Wyoming | mmfarms - 2018-09-05 5:12 PM My gelding is not lame....his back end isn't working...EPM .....Dr Hague said some drugs do not work on some horses. He is,now on Levamisole and Decoquinate 480 mg packets. His hinny is like jello. In 2 days he has basically went to pot. I assume the windsrol shot kept him looking good for a month. He has lost 50 pounds in a week. I could not get him to Hague when all his problems surfaced so I used another vet. ...who injected his hocks and stifles...put him on his EPM med and gave him the windsrol injection. He acts like he doesn't know where his backend is. So now to treat him again. Thank you all for your input and your pm's with encouraging words. It is very much appreciated.
I can't say I am glad it is EPM, we don't deal with EPM in WY, but I am happy it isn't a pelvis injury.. I hope you have a fast recovery with him  |
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Regular
Posts: 79
| My understanding; absolutely no steroids when treating EPM. Please check with an EPM educated vet, but that is what I've been told from WSU Veterinarians.
Best of luck, keep us posted! |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1045
| J Cunningham - 2018-09-05 9:09 PM
My understanding; absolutely no steroids when treating EPM. Please check with an EPM educated vet, but that is what I've been told from WSU Veterinarians.
Best of luck, keep us posted!
This is what they treat horses with EPM. Same drugs he treated my other horse with. |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1045
| wyoming barrel racer - 2018-09-05 9:02 PM
mmfarms - 2018-09-05 5:12 PM My gelding is not lame....his back end isn't working...EPM .....Dr Hague said some drugs do not work on some horses. He is,now on Levamisole and Decoquinate 480 mg packets. His hinny is like jello. In 2 days he has basically went to pot. I assume the windsrol shot kept him looking good for a month. He has lost 50 pounds in a week. I could not get him to Hague when all his problems surfaced so I used another vet. ...who injected his hocks and stifles...put him on his EPM med and gave him the windsrol injection. He acts like he doesn't know where his backend is. So now to treat him again. Thank you all for your input and your pm's with encouraging words. It is very much appreciated.
I can't say I am glad it is EPM, we don't deal with EPM in WY, but I am happy it isn't a pelvis injury.. I hope you have a fast recovery with himÂ
I was relieved it wasn't his pelvis too. But I hate EPM :( |
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Gettin Jiggy Wit It
Posts: 2734
| mmfarms - 2018-09-05 9:54 PM
wyoming barrel racer - 2018-09-05 9:02 PM
mmfarms - 2018-09-05 5:12 PM My gelding is not lame....his back end isn't working...EPM .....Dr Hague said some drugs do not work on some horses. He is,now on Levamisole and Decoquinate 480 mg packets. His hinny is like jello. In 2 days he has basically went to pot. I assume the windsrol shot kept him looking good for a month. He has lost 50 pounds in a week. I could not get him to Hague when all his problems surfaced so I used another vet. ...who injected his hocks and stifles...put him on his EPM med and gave him the windsrol injection. He acts like he doesn't know where his backend is. So now to treat him again. Thank you all for your input and your pm's with encouraging words. It is very much appreciated.
I can't say I am glad it is EPM, we don't deal with EPM in WY, but I am happy it isn't a pelvis injury.. I hope you have a fast recovery with himÂ
I was relieved it wasn't his pelvis too. But I hate EPM : (
Prayers for him! I hope he gets better soon. |
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