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  That's White "Man" to You
Posts: 5515
 
| Runnincat - 2018-10-11 9:06 AM While the stallions get paid into Pink Buckle, its really about the mares. Why do I think this, because I have ridden get out of mares that I have ridden. I believe talent and ability comes ALOT from the mare. There are exceptions but breeding Dash Ta Fame or Frenchmans Guy to a donkey still gets you a mule. I think the studs get too much credit and then again too much fault. #MarePower
Actually you get a hinny, but we get what you are saying. | |
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Married to a Louie Lover
Posts: 3303
  
| I’d be curious to actually see the mare’s papers. There’s no recognizable name in sight, and then there’s lines that people seem to forget about that have produced super solid athletes.
Example - how many average barrel racers who don’t breed and don’t spend a pile of time studying pedigrees do you think would recognize the name Harlan? Far fewer probably than would recognize Firewater Flit or Letta Hank Do It even though they are Harlan grandsons. We’ve had extremely good luck with Harlan bred horses and I can’t wait to start entering the colt I have in the barn right now.
I’m a barrel racer with champagne taste and a beer budget. These are the kind of horses we’re willing to take risks on if they’re priced right - especially if the pedigree also includes some cow because we rope as well. We can usually make something of them in one arena or another and if they’re level headed enough for a youth horse we always seen to have folks looking for those. | |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 502
Location: United States | I fully believe in stallion incentives and PB is awesome! I wish the answer was YES, breeding a PROVEN, healthy mare to PB stallion will help the value of the foal and industry. I feel we all need to practice open mindedness and educate ourselves on a mares physical abilities and not just genetics. Opportunity that could benefit a broad field shouldn't be overlooked. I'm not saying a proven nobody bred mare is the answer, it just shouldn't be an automatic turnoff - there could be value. | |
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Defense Attorney for The Horse
Location: Claremore, OK | pippy - 2018-10-11 9:16 AM
I fully believe in stallion incentives and PB is awesome! I wish the answer was YES, breeding a PROVEN, healthy mare to PB stallion will help the value of the foal and industry. I feel we all need to practice open mindedness and educate ourselves on a mares physical abilities and not just genetics. Opportunity that could benefit a broad field shouldn't be overlooked. I'm not saying a proven nobody bred mare is the answer, it just shouldn't be an automatic turnoff - there could be value.
I’m not trying to discourage you about breeding to a PB stud, I’m just warning you, you might not make the premium that some others do (when out of an unproven mare). | |
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 Expert
Posts: 1520
Location: Illinois | For me if I was considering a colt out of a PB stallion and a no name mom, there would be 2 things I'd look at. First I'd check the mare power on the stallions side, I'm a full believer that mares pass more down to the baby than studs do. If he's got a strong maternal line, I'm more apt to want a baby by him. Next I check the mare. I'm also a firm believer in proven mares. I have one of my own with a good mix of bloodlines that I have stallions in mind for when I do breed her, but if she doesn't make a 1D horse herself, she won't be having babies for me. I like to really do my research on mares, I'm not one that likes to jump on the big names solely because they're what's hot right now or proving themselves currently. If there's nothing I recognize I'm going to research, I look up everything I can about every horse on her pedigree and look up any babies by the rest as well. The I'm going to think about how I expect those lines to cross. The deciding factor on the mare is stats, I want to see stats. If she's running in the 1D, but not winning on the 1D then I'm now more turned off. If you can only provide me stats of her running in the 1D against 1-100 horses, I'm still on the fence. Show me one that's winning in the 1D on a larger scale and consistent, can hold her own in the top 10 at a 200+ horse race, and I think she would cross well with that stud then I would probably take a chance as a buyer. But that's a lot of check marks you have to pass before I buy your colt, and there's a lot of people who would bypass long before I would. It would take the right buyer. I think the buyers in the market of pink buckle horses right now are going to stick with what they know and not branch too far out. I myself would love to see some new faces and variety, but I don't think the Pink Buckle market is where to start with it.
Edited by JLazyT_perf_horses 2018-10-11 10:01 AM
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 Champ
Posts: 19623
Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm | pippy - 2018-10-11 7:16 AM
I fully believe in stallion incentives and PB is awesome! I wish the answer was YES, breeding a PROVEN, healthy mare to PB stallion will help the value of the foal and industry. I feel we all need to practice open mindedness and educate ourselves on a mares physical abilities and not just genetics. Opportunity that could benefit a broad field shouldn't be overlooked. I'm not saying a proven nobody bred mare is the answer, it just shouldn't be an automatic turnoff - there could be value.
The incentives CAN be awesome if you have the money to play. Mostly it's the riders/owner when they compete that come out ahead. The stallion owners are the ones footing the lions share of the bill year after year.
Just a thought. Just because a stallion has the luck to be owned by a person who can afford to pay them into the most expensive barrel incentive ever conceived, doesn't make that stallion worth anything to breed for a barrel racing prospect. I haven't studied the PB stallion list. But some of them haven't got foals on the ground, let alone anything performing on the track or the arena. Just because they might run on the track, doesn't make them automatically a barrel racing sire. Plus I think the stud fees on all those horses went up to cover the cost of the incentive. That's just how it has to be.
I think it's possible/probable that these PB eligible foals will have an inflated selling price based on the possibility they could earn more money in the PB races. But that's only one race a year. Obviously, people will have to weigh all the facts and choose for themselves. But expect to pay more for the stud fees and the foals in an artificially inflated market. | |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 502
Location: United States | OregonBR - Awesome response - thank you for your insight!
Edited by pippy 2018-10-11 10:06 AM
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 502
Location: United States | JLazyT_perf_horses - 2018-10-11 11:00 AM
For me if I was considering a colt out of a PB stallion and a no name mom, there would be 2 things I'd look at. First I'd check the mare power on the stallions side, I'm a full believer that mares pass more down to the baby than studs do. If he's got a strong maternal line, I'm more apt to want a baby by him. Next I check the mare. I'm also a firm believer in proven mares. I have one of my own with a good mix of bloodlines that I have stallions in mind for when I do breed her, but if she doesn't make a 1D horse herself, she won't be having babies for me. I like to really do my research on mares, I'm not one that likes to jump on the big names solely because they're what's hot right now or proving themselves currently. If there's nothing I recognize I'm going to research, I look up everything I can about every horse on her pedigree and look up any babies by the rest as well. The I'm going to think about how I expect those lines to cross. The deciding factor on the mare is stats, I want to see stats. If she's running in the 1D, but not winning on the 1D then I'm now more turned off. If you can only provide me stats of her running in the 1D against 1-100 horses, I'm still on the fence. Show me one that's winning in the 1D on a larger scale and consistent, can hold her own in the top 10 at a 200+ horse race, and I think she would cross well with that stud then I would probably take a chance as a buyer. But that's a lot of check marks you have to pass before I buy your colt, and there's a lot of people who would bypass long before I would. It would take the right buyer. I think the buyers in the market of pink buckle horses right now are going to stick with what they know and not branch too far out. I myself would love to see some new faces and variety, but I don't think the Pink Buckle market is where to start with it.
Awesome Response - Thank you!!! | |
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Expert
Posts: 1520
Location: Illinois | OregonBR - 2018-10-11 10:00 AM
pippy - 2018-10-11 7:16 AM
I fully believe in stallion incentives and PB is awesome! I wish the answer was YES, breeding a PROVEN, healthy mare to PB stallion will help the value of the foal and industry. I feel we all need to practice open mindedness and educate ourselves on a mares physical abilities and not just genetics. Opportunity that could benefit a broad field shouldn't be overlooked. I'm not saying a proven nobody bred mare is the answer, it just shouldn't be an automatic turnoff - there could be value.
The incentives CAN be awesome if you have the money to play. Mostly it's the riders/owner when they compete that come out ahead. The stallion owners are the ones footing the lions share of the bill year after year.
Just a thought. Just because a stallion has the luck to be owned by a person who can afford to pay them into the most expensive barrel incentive ever conceived, doesn't make that stallion worth anything to breed for a barrel racing prospect. I haven't studied the PB stallion list. But some of them haven't got foals on the ground, let alone anything performing on the track or the arena. Just because they might run on the track, doesn't make them automatically a barrel racing sire. Plus I think the stud fees on all those horses went up to cover the cost of the incentive. That's just how it has to be.
I think it's possible/probable that these PB eligible foals will have an inflated selling price based on the possibility they could earn more money in the PB races. But that's only one race a year. Obviously, people will have to weigh all the facts and choose for themselves. But expect to pay more for the stud fees and the foals in an artificially inflated market.
I think there's a couple of the studs on there that even though don't have a name for themselves as producers yet, have good things to offer the industry. I think most are just taking the gamble to get their foot in the door because they see the potential. There's a couple on there I'd like to have a colt out of myself if I had the right mare to cross. I had my eye on Roarrr long before he was Pink Buckle, I'm sure a lot of people look at him and wonder who the heck he even is & what he's done. I think Lucky Wonder Horse has the potential to be a top stud, the mare power behind him is strong. However it will be awhile before we see babies do anything, but they're going to enroll him now to get his foot in the door. Some of the others are just hoping it generates more interest in their studs and a lot of them still have more than reasonable stud fees. Gives people a chance to get a PB eligible colt with a lower price tag & I think they're marketing for people in all divisions of that open race. The people who want to win at the top are going to go with tried and true and pay more, but for those who are just fine with 3/4D, they're gonna be able to find something to fit their needs on the beer budget and still be able to participate. | |
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 Guys Just Wanna Have Fun
Posts: 5530
Location: OH | I hope it is a success, I applaud people that are willing to stick their neck and checkbook out there and take a chance, but for me, the math just doesn't add up. | |
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Veteran
Posts: 141
| Liana D - 2018-10-10 2:39 PM
I don’t think it’s as much about “perceived quality “ as it is the old “riding the papers” deal. Call it what you want but in today’s market people will pay a premium for proven bloodlines. Racehorse people and cutters have been doing it a long time. Barrel racers, not so much. You can watch the Heritage and NCHA sales and clearly see that a strong top and bottom pedigree with proven winners will out sell a no name pedigree or weak pedigree all day long. Barrel racing is becoming the same way. Everyone wants to increase their odds of winning, pure and simple.
I’ve won a lot on horses that weren’t flavor of he month but I’ve also taken a powder in that type of horse if he doesn’t make it ;-)
As for broadening the gene pool or outcrossing, that’s fine but they need to be proven first.
Lots to reply to in this post, not that I disagree with most of it...
I thought cutters, reiners and track horses bred mostly to winning studs, studs that actually performed and performed well? Am I wrong?
If you want to increase your odds, pay a multi winning futurity trainer to train and run your horse regardless of the papers. | |
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Defense Attorney for The Horse
Location: Claremore, OK | joemama - 2018-10-11 12:36 PM
Liana D - 2018-10-10 2:39 PM
I don’t think it’s as much about “perceived quality “ as it is the old “riding the papers” deal. Call it what you want but in today’s market people will pay a premium for proven bloodlines. Racehorse people and cutters have been doing it a long time. Barrel racers, not so much. You can watch the Heritage and NCHA sales and clearly see that a strong top and bottom pedigree with proven winners will out sell a no name pedigree or weak pedigree all day long. Barrel racing is becoming the same way. Everyone wants to increase their odds of winning, pure and simple.
I’ve won a lot on horses that weren’t flavor of he month but I’ve also taken a powder in that type of horse if he doesn’t make it ;-)
As for broadening the gene pool or outcrossing, that’s fine but they need to be proven first.
Lots to reply to in this post, not that I disagree with most of it...
I thought cutters, reiners and track horses bred mostly to winning studs, studs that actually performed and performed well? Am I wrong?
If you want to increase your odds, pay a multi winning futurity trainer to train and run your horse regardless of the papers.
I get where you’re coming from in the breeding.
As far as sending your horse, no matter how it’s bred, to a great trainer, you can send a donkey to the best and it’s still a donkey. There are some trainers I know that don’t ride some certain bloodlines (winning trainers)/ certain pedigrees. | |
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Champ
Posts: 19623
Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm | joemama - 2018-10-11 10:36 AM
Liana D - 2018-10-10 2:39 PM
I don’t think it’s as much about “perceived quality “ as it is the old “riding the papers” deal. Call it what you want but in today’s market people will pay a premium for proven bloodlines. Racehorse people and cutters have been doing it a long time. Barrel racers, not so much. You can watch the Heritage and NCHA sales and clearly see that a strong top and bottom pedigree with proven winners will out sell a no name pedigree or weak pedigree all day long. Barrel racing is becoming the same way. Everyone wants to increase their odds of winning, pure and simple.
I’ve won a lot on horses that weren’t flavor of he month but I’ve also taken a powder in that type of horse if he doesn’t make it ;-)
As for broadening the gene pool or outcrossing, that’s fine but they need to be proven first.
Lots to reply to in this post, not that I disagree with most of it...
I thought cutters, reiners and track horses bred mostly to winning studs, studs that actually performed and performed well? Am I wrong?
If you want to increase your odds, pay a multi winning futurity trainer to train and run your horse regardless of the papers.
The best of the best trainers will not waste their time on something they don't want to ride.
You can't MAKE a horse be what they aren't. You can't make a cutting horse be a race horse, a race horse a cutter, etc... | |
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Veteran
Posts: 141
| OregonBR - 2018-10-11 2:17 PM
joemama - 2018-10-11 10:36 AM
Liana D - 2018-10-10 2:39 PM
I don’t think it’s as much about “perceived quality “ as it is the old “riding the papers” deal. Call it what you want but in today’s market people will pay a premium for proven bloodlines. Racehorse people and cutters have been doing it a long time. Barrel racers, not so much. You can watch the Heritage and NCHA sales and clearly see that a strong top and bottom pedigree with proven winners will out sell a no name pedigree or weak pedigree all day long. Barrel racing is becoming the same way. Everyone wants to increase their odds of winning, pure and simple.
I’ve won a lot on horses that weren’t flavor of he month but I’ve also taken a powder in that type of horse if he doesn’t make it ;-)
As for broadening the gene pool or outcrossing, that’s fine but they need to be proven first.
Lots to reply to in this post, not that I disagree with most of it...
I thought cutters, reiners and track horses bred mostly to winning studs, studs that actually performed and performed well? Am I wrong?
If you want to increase your odds, pay a multi winning futurity trainer to train and run your horse regardless of the papers.
The best of the best trainers will not waste their time on something they don't want to ride.
You can't MAKE a horse be what they aren't. You can't make a cutting horse be a race horse, a race horse a cutter, etc...
But you can make either be a winning barrel horse. | |
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Veteran
Posts: 141
| AND, its not about wasting time, its about the money people are paying them to train and the money they can get from selling the papers regardless of performance.
I know one trainer posted this year that she trained a really good off name horse and it seemed to me people around the trainer were making excuses as to why the horse was clocking so well and why the trainer "wasted" her time on the horse instead of using their mind and seeing it for what it was. | |
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Champ
Posts: 19623
Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm | joemama - 2018-10-11 12:30 PM
OregonBR - 2018-10-11 2:17 PM
joemama - 2018-10-11 10:36 AM
Liana D - 2018-10-10 2:39 PM
I don’t think it’s as much about “perceived quality “ as it is the old “riding the papers” deal. Call it what you want but in today’s market people will pay a premium for proven bloodlines. Racehorse people and cutters have been doing it a long time. Barrel racers, not so much. You can watch the Heritage and NCHA sales and clearly see that a strong top and bottom pedigree with proven winners will out sell a no name pedigree or weak pedigree all day long. Barrel racing is becoming the same way. Everyone wants to increase their odds of winning, pure and simple.
I’ve won a lot on horses that weren’t flavor of he month but I’ve also taken a powder in that type of horse if he doesn’t make it ;-)
As for broadening the gene pool or outcrossing, that’s fine but they need to be proven first.
Lots to reply to in this post, not that I disagree with most of it...
I thought cutters, reiners and track horses bred mostly to winning studs, studs that actually performed and performed well? Am I wrong?
If you want to increase your odds, pay a multi winning futurity trainer to train and run your horse regardless of the papers.
The best of the best trainers will not waste their time on something they don't want to ride.
You can't MAKE a horse be what they aren't. You can't make a cutting horse be a race horse, a race horse a cutter, etc...
But you can make either be a winning barrel horse.
Of course we draw horses from other disciplines that make excellent barrel horses. When you brought up race, cutting and reining horses, you didn't specify they make barrel horses. So I didn't follow your thought process. They don't cross over between those disciplines but some of them would cross over to barrels.
There are success stories. Especially on the aged horse level, local level & rodeo. Many more don't make anything more than local jackpot, playday, 3D and lower horses too. Everyone has different goals. Of all the disciplines that are being bred for, horses bred for barrels are the most diverse in pedigree. We draw from the race track, cow breds, and everything in between. Most of the best barrel horses today are a blend. FG is a blend of race and cowbreeding.
Many people don't have time to re-invent the wheel. They want something that has a greater than 10% chance of being a good horse. People with money want better than 10% success rate and they don't want to mess with the other 90%. So they choose on pedigree, conformation, disposition, etc... You obviously have an agenda against discipline specific horses and that's your right. Nobody can or should tell you how to spend your money or time. But my purpose is to raise horses that not only have the right tools to get the job done, I have to be able to sell them. | |
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Champ
Posts: 19623
Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm | joemama - 2018-10-11 12:35 PM
AND, its not about wasting time, its about the money people are paying them to train and the money they can get from selling the papers regardless of performance.
I know one trainer posted this year that she trained a really good off name horse and it seemed to me people around the trainer were making excuses as to why the horse was clocking so well and why the trainer "wasted" her time on the horse instead of using their mind and seeing it for what it was.
Go talk to a leading snaffle bit trainer and let me know if you got your horse out of Texas by trailer in his stable. Heck even if they are kind of well bred but you aren't anybody he knows about. Let me know how that works for you.
He only has so many spots and he's not going to waste it on a horse he doesn't want to ride.
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 You get what you give
Posts: 13030
Location: Texas | I think you have somewhat of a market, OP.
The key is if your mare made a solid impression locally or regionally, your babies may be worth a lot to that niche. I have a mare who is bred really well but its not designer. She's a daughter of Strawflyin Buds out of a daughter of Rare Form. She was a solid 1D horse with a record of winning races of 150-200 horses by 0.2 to 0.4 seconds regularly. She was a 2D money earner at big shows like ANHA and Wrapn3. However, her pedigree isn't popular right now. I bred her to a really solid race stallion and her foal is the only foal I've sold as a weanling. Everything else seems to sell when they are yearlings, but I had two local people almost get into a bidding war over this dude just because of his mom.
I also feel that people will have an open mind about a mare's record when looking for a baby... If you breed a no name, non performing mare to a PB stallion, it's not going to command a premium price. If you breed a "non designer" bred mare with a 1D record to a PB stallion, you should have some market but again, you may not be the high seller of the sale if that makes any sense. I would pick accordingly with your stallion choices, and maybe not go for the stallion who stands for $6000 (random example) on your first foal because its HARD to make your money back on horses as it is. So I would maybe pick a junior stallion that looks really impressive, take the risk, and see what you get. Sell it to the best home you can, and pray they follow through with its training. It will take you 5-6 years before you see if your mare can produce, in the barrel world, regardless of her papers. So you're likely to be on baby #3 or #4 before the first one hits the arena, and you pray that he leaves an impression.
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You get what you give
Posts: 13030
Location: Texas | I also want to mention that breeding incentives should never be your sole reason for picking a stallion. I better really really really want to breed to the stallion for EVERY other reason and then on top of that its in the incentives. You always have to make sound breeding choices. When you just go for stallion X because he's paid into something, without looking into his temperament, conformation, record, offspring, etc.. you may end up with a horse that does nothing. It's a tough enough gamble as it is when they have all of the right pieces, sometimes they still don't make a good horse.
I would really research this and get opinions from people outside of the internet and social media. Talk to people who are actually breeding and selling barrel horses. And buying them.. Be realistic about your goals. Everyone wants to have a futurity horse until they see how much it costs to play the game. Not every horse has to be bred to be a FUTURITY horse. | |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 502
Location: United States | casualdust07 - 2018-10-11 5:52 PM
I also want to mention that breeding incentives should never be your sole reason for picking a stallion. I better really really really want to breed to the stallion for EVERY other reason and then on top of that its in the incentives. You always have to make sound breeding choices. When you just go for stallion X because he's paid into something, without looking into his temperament, conformation, record, offspring, etc.. you may end up with a horse that does nothing. It's a tough enough gamble as it is when they have all of the right pieces, sometimes they still don't make a good horse.
I would really research this and get opinions from people outside of the internet and social media. Talk to people who are actually breeding and selling barrel horses. And buying them.. Be realistic about your goals. Everyone wants to have a futurity horse until they see how much it costs to play the game. Not every horse has to be bred to be a FUTURITY horse.
Thank you for your excellent insight and advice. The two stallions that I want to book to have been on my radar for the past few years, they just happened to enroll as PB. I have learned an awful lot from this thread and I thank everyone who offered opinion. | |
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