I will post on this at greater length when I have access to my computer, and don't have to type at length on my phone. 

while I have formulated vitamin / mineral formulas for a number of national brands, I have moved away from them in most cases based on blood work from horses on a grain free or greatly grain limited forage based diet. If you do not feed this way, supplementation may be of value. 

The key is the elimination of grain, corn and soy from the diet. One size does not fit all, but in most cases, the best return on your feed dollar is better quality roughage, not further supplementation. 

There are areas where certain minerals are short in the roughage. This needs to be addressed. In general, if grain based feeds are eliminated from the diet, and roughage quality is high, added vitamins make little or no difference apparent in the blood work. 

Super curious which mineral/vitamin supplement brands you formulated and why you steer away from them? Using one that is fit to your tested forage and or pasture shouldn't hurt anything. A balanced diet with the needed vitamins and minerals isn't going to hurt anything unless they have a problem from the beginning making levels toxic or unbalanced. Your findings would be a good discussion in the equine nutrition forums! 

Totally agree!!!   I feel so blessed to have a large pasture where my horses can roam and graze 24 hours a day; I didn't realize how lucky I am until hearing of the stories and possible issues on here about owners that had to stall their horses or only had small acreage on which to keep them.   

I tell people all the time that if it makes you sleep better I have no issue with people using a quality vit/min since excess is eliminated. However, I would just rather see that money spent on better roughage. Significant starch and sugars that are fed (grain based feeds) in amounts that allow it to reach the hind gut, undigested, can greatly alter water soluble vitamin production. Eliminating that excess starch and sugar improves that vitamin production. If you can't do that, added support is justified. My point is simply that added supplementation of vitamins is not required in every horse diet. If the basic diet is disruptive, added vit/min may benefit. The better solution is to change the diet to one that provides the fat soluble vitamins, allows production of the water soluble vitamins and is not mineral deficient on its own without added supplements. My most identifiable vit/min formulation was Gro Strong mineral for ADM. 

You seem like a good one to pick the brain of!

So I'm plain jane curious. You don't have to reply! LOL I just love these discussions!

So since hay and pasture depends 110% on where you are environmentally, what about the lacking numbers in selenium, or especially Vitamin E now that we know some of the long and short term results of vit e deficiencies? Or unbalanced calcium:phosphorus ratios affecting growth and longevity in the skeletal system? I feel like there's lots of reasons today why someone should be open to testing their hay and pasture and look into balancing the hay and grass diet with the correct ratios and amounts to meet a complete vitamin and mineral requirement, whether that be a lick, tub, pellet or lose mineral supplied (not specifically a grain), so it seems odd to me to tell people to not worry about it? (Oh, as always with salt!)

I know we were personally taught in class that an IDLE horse (meaning that of one with little to no workload, just walking to and from the water tank, grazing, etc) for the most part gets the needed protein and a good percentage of the nutrients they need for their daily 15-16mcals of energy from JUST hay and pasture (Dr. Phillips in Horse Poor Podcast touches on this as well) :) Even a horse that is just getting rode here and there can get by and look great with a fat body, shine and good feel. But as a barrel horse forum, that's not what my comment is aimed at. My comment/advice those should take with a grain of salt, is mainly for the AVERAGE competitive barrel horse program (getting rode 1-2 hours daily 5-6x a week as well as competing 1-2x a week or even every other). Because there is a HUGE difference between a low/idle horse vs a horse that is in work, competing, hauling, etc. A horse that is truly getting conditioned, worked and competing is depleting almost all that its eating and 'taking in' fat, vitamins and minerals faster to keep the muscles and body up to par during such a program, than that of a pasture pet/occasional trail horse (which is why supplements and grains ARE available for those on the road not being able to graze a pasture 24/7 or have the same perfect hay at every state) . I think a NO GRAIN diet is truly the best way to go personally, if you can, but a ration balancer or a vitamin and mineral to BALANCE your diet for a competitive horse should still be 'key'.  But then, keep in mind that there also comes the horses that only thrive on a sweet feed high in sugars and starch that look and feel amazing, whereas some get just a handful of it and they practically get every health issue on the planet..

Every horse is different. I agree not EVERY horse NEEDS a complete diet, because some truly don't. But for someone who is spending $1000's to run and travel, having everything on the competitive edge seems to be the focus. And with the immune system basing in the gut, the gut, aka the diet, will affect performance present day and in the future.

Again, no shade. I have no Masters or Doc Degree. Just certificates and hoping to gain more as I go! Just wanting to learn another point of view!!

You bring up all good points and only miss a few that are important to me. Here is my point of view.

I do strongly believe in forage testing. In my 30+ years as a bio chemist who focuses primarilay on equine nutrition I have done and reviewed over 30k hay and pasture analysis. You will notice in my answer above that I strongly stress the need for the highest quality roughage available, and that acquiring that should be the number one priority when it comes to your feed dollars. Clearly hay analysis can be a great aid in identifying this hay, and many quality hay suppliers provide analysis information to customers who purchase enough for that informaion to be meaningful for the hay that they bought. I also mention that regional mineral defeciencies (selenium is a good example) need to be addressed. However, addressing mineral defeciencies with a typical vitamin / mineral formulation is impossible. Selenium can not be added to feed, or a general vitamin / mineral package in high enought amounts to balance a selenium poor region since that same formula may well go to a region that exibits selenium toxicity. In cases of specific regional mineral issues a specific supplement, not a general one, is the only way to address that issue. The Pacific North West is a good example here.  In my clinics and seminars the first thing that you will hear me say is that "we feed horses into trouble, then try to supplement them out of it". My reference to a balanced diet is one  that fits the horses digestive system with the least negative impact while eliminating feed inclusions that include corn, wheat, soy, oats and molasses. These ingredients, in higher feed rates, negatively impact digestive effeciency. The term "balanced diet" would include adiquate Vitamin E levels, (supplied by Renew Gold) addresses a proper cal/phos ratio, (normally met with high quality mixed roughage and Renew Gold), a proper Omega 3 to Omega 6 ratio of the entire diet, and proper digestible energy for the level of effort needed by the specific horse. I only refer to Renew Gold here as you state that feeding that program will not meet the above requirements. Elimination of grain based feeds, while incorporating a more energy dense non grain replacement results in more digestive effeciency and significantly lower risk of digestive upset. 

Most clinical feed studies done in Universities today are underwritten by conventional feed companies. I know, I consulted and formulated for conventional feed producers for a number of years.  Since most of those companies are deeply and  financially commited to formulations that include the least expensive sources of protein, starch and sugars available, those types of feeds are promoted as "normal and proper" for horses. The problem with this is that while those ingrediets do provide raw numbers for reaching calorie goals, they do not take into consideration the disruption of digesive effeciency of those ingredients and how they effect the horses hind gut effeciency and proper processing of the most important part of the diet, the roughage. As a result, it is possible that a significant amount of roughage sourced calories, vitamins and minerals end up on the ground behind the horse. Those lost roughage nutrients were purchased, hauled, stored, fed, eaten, and then not captured. As a result of this ineffeciency, water soluble vitamins are not properly produced, calories are not captured, and analysis results make it look like the answer is more grain based feed and a vitamin/ min supplement. Eliminate the ineffeciency in absorbtion, take away inflammation, normalize microbes in the hind gut and normalize the ability to make water soluble vitamins, and that need to add more calories and supplements greatly goes away.

This is my basic princiapl of normalizing a system that is amazingly effecient if allowed and supported to function naturally. Provide that vast majority of the horses energy needs from the highest quality roughage and/or pasture available. Provide needed additional energy and fat soluble vitamin needs in the smallest, least disruptive, package possible while supporting normal digestive function through the entire system. Regional minieral deficiencies need to be supported by specific supplementation, not general vitamin/ mineral formulas. Very high energy needs can be met by increasing both roughage and natural vegatable fat calories without introducing disruptive levels of starch and sugar. Useable levels of NSC is another topic completely. I try to keep additional concentrates, if available roughage leaves me no other choice based on hay quality, to under 1.5 pound per feeding. 

I am not against ration balancers when hay quality is low and quality roughage simply can't be found.  I am not against mineral support if roughage is deficient. My preference in both situations is to fix the cause of the shortfall with better roughage. When this simply can't be done, supplementation may be the only solution, it is just not the best one, or only one. 

please excuse typos. Still working from my phone.

Win

I LOVED this response!

Also stealing this quote: we feed horses into trouble, then try to supplement them out of it. It seems like it was/is such a fad to add 900 supplements to a feed.. I won't lie, I was that girl too a few years ago! Loved your ideal balanced diet too! Just an awesome response. Thank you!

Giving this a bump up