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Location: Colorful Colorado | I'm not finding the PSSM Forum on here listing the positive pedigrees... maybe I'm forum retarded ... IDK?!?!
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 Dog Resuce Agent
Posts: 3459
  
Location: southeast Texas | runninbuckskin - 2014-05-30 1:36 AM I'm not finding the PSSM Forum on here listing the positive pedigrees... maybe I'm forum retarded ... IDK?!?!
FaceBook has a PSSM forum | |
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  Roan Wonder
 
Location: SW MO | Our stallion Rafte Blu who has 22 crosses to Joe Hancock tested N/N on his five panel test.
CS Cimarron Roan tested N/N ( he has 37 crosses to Joe Hancock )
CS Ikes last Rose tested N/N except for GEB she is N/ GEB, but she is N/N For PSSM. Her dam test the same way & she is a grandaughter of Handy Eddie Cinco. Even though they are HC bred they are N/N for PSSM | |
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 "Drank the Kool Aid"
Posts: 5496
Location: Iowa, LA | runninbuckskin - 2014-05-30 1:36 AM
I'm not finding the PSSM Forum on here listing the positive pedigrees... maybe I'm forum retarded ... IDK?!?!
BHW does not have a PSSM forum. There is one you can join on Facebook. Once you join, you can then go to the "Files" section to see the pedigrees submitted so far. Both of mine have Type 2 PSSM which CANNOT be hair tested to determine. You have to muscle biopsy in order to rule out Type 2. Both of mine tested negative for Type 1 via DNA hair test. | |
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Common Sense and then some
Location: So. California | There is also a website that may be of interest to you.
http://www.bridgequine.com/
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 Total Germophobe
Posts: 6437
Location: Montana | I finally got my 5 Panel test back from AQHA (there was a mix up because I did the DNA test at the same time, so it took longer) and my horse is N/N everything, including PSSM type 1. I haven't had her tested for PSSM type 2.
Edited by mtcanchazer 2014-06-17 10:41 PM
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 Expert
Posts: 1543
Location: Wyoming | I did not read all the posts...so if I'm double posting, sorry!
Pssm is not always a death sentence for your horse...but ALL horses should be tested before you buy them. Ask for the 5 panel test that also includes the test for pssm1. Diet and excerise is key for "most" of these horses. Some of them are so severe that even diet and excerise cannot control the pain.
There are LOTS of horses that carry this gene..LOTS! Big carriers are Sonny Dee Bar, and horses that trace WAY back to Eddie Cinco and Yellow Jacket. There was also a horse called Midnight and up closer in the papers is a "suspect" FL Lady's Bug Moon. I would have never guessed my horse had it based on his breeding but he does.
The forum on Facebook is great and people are listing all kinds of positive pedigrees on their page so you can see whats testing positive. Education is key to stopping this horrible disease..please TEST everything! | |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 912
Location: Alabama | This is a great thread! Worth the read for sure. | |
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Rad Dork
Posts: 5218
Location: Oklahoma | I wish we could get a sticky for this thread!! Â Such a wealth of information!!
My appendix gelding tied up on me a few days ago. Â I am thinking I triggred the issue by running him after a good week & half off, being stalled overnight and continuing to grain (which is also 16% NSC  Â ) him. Â
He exhibits quite a few of the symptoms, but I have been told that his "attitude" comes from being spoiled his enitre life.... but I'm now wondering if it could be PSSM related. Â I believe that his top side goes way back to Yellow Jacket and his bottom side has TB blood in it. Â I am going to pull some hairs and go the Animal Genetics PSSM1 route and change his diet and ty to ride him more regularly. Â The DVM/DACT that has been doing his chiro believes that some of his needed adjustments might have came from gaining muscle & weight and changing how he has carried himself, but when when I told her about the PSSM she was very receptive to the ideal and did not shut me down. Â She encouraged me to get the PSSM 1 test done and we could work a regime up for him from there.
I have a few questions:
How do you guys warm up/cool down your PSSM horses? Â I know I will need to revamp my current routine and make it more lengthly.
I have stopped giving him alfalfa flakes and was wondering which would be better for him as a hay source.... flakes of Timothy (whcih he really dislikes compared to the alfalfa), Alfalfa/Timothy cubes or just alfalfa cubes? Â From what I gather the more processed the hay is the less sugar content it has, but would Alfalfa/Timothy cubes (from Standlee) still have too much sugar?
Edited by Longneck 2015-06-26 8:38 PM
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Dog Resuce Agent
Posts: 3459
Location: southeast Texas | Also, Face Book has a good forum PSSM forum alfalfa, Shredded Beet pulp, Wheat middlings, Ground oat hulls, Ground Soy hulls, Ground Flaxseed, Soy oil, calcium lignin Sulfonate, calcium carbonate, mono-dicalcium phosphate, Salt, Vitamin a, natural Flavor, Vitamin c, Biotin, B concentrate, calcium pantothenate, choline chloride, natural Vitamin E, 12
Tocopherols, Vitamin D, l-lysine, magnesium oxide, Dl-methionine, niacin, riboflavin, Selenium, Thiamine, cobalt carbonate, copper Sulfate, Ferrous carbonate, manganous oxide, calcium Iodate, Zinc oxide.
this is the Purina WellSolve L/S (low starch) feed. It is a great feed to transition to. You can tell with in a week, most horses, that it's working. As your horse gets off sugars.
Read all you can, not all horses respond the same. Some need more management and added vit E and magnesium to help with soreness.
My horse did pretty good on this feed, but he wasn't all the way there with his issues. Reading different information, trying different things that worked for others, I narrowed it down to alfalfa cubes, Renew Gold and a flake of alfalfa and regular hay.
Look for labels and read the information. Especially sugars and starch information. They should add up to 10% or as close as you can get.
Im not sure of the Timothy hay you asked about. You have to find the sugar starch content.
Edited by roxieannie 2014-08-06 1:30 PM
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Rad Dork
Posts: 5218
Location: Oklahoma | roxieannie - 2014-08-06 1:28 PM Also, Face Book has a good forum PSSM forum
alfalfa, Shredded Beet pulp, Wheat middlings, Ground oat hulls, Ground Soy hulls, Ground Flaxseed, Soy oil, calcium lignin Sulfonate, calcium carbonate, mono-dicalcium phosphate, Salt, Vitamin a, natural Flavor, Vitamin c, Biotin, B concentrate, calcium pantothenate, choline chloride, natural Vitamin E,
12
Tocopherols, Vitamin D, l-lysine, magnesium oxide, Dl-methionine, niacin,
riboflavin, Selenium, Thiamine, cobalt carbonate, copper Sulfate, Ferrous carbonate, manganous oxide, calcium Iodate, Zinc oxide.
this is the Purina WellSolve L/S (low starch) feed. It is a great feed to transition to. You can tell with in a week, most horses, that it's working. As your horse gets off sugars.
Read all you can, not all horses respond the same. Some need more management and added vit E and magnesium to help with soreness.
My horse did pretty good on this feed, but he wasn't all the way there with his issues. Reading different information, trying different things that worked for others, I narrowed it down to alfalfa cubes, Renew Gold and a flake of alfalfa and regular hay.
Look for labels and read the information. Especially sugars and starch information. They should add up to 10% or as close as you can get.
Im not sure of the Timothy hay you asked about. You have to find the sugar starch content.
Thanks!! I will see if I can get the Wellsolve somewhere. I am starting to give him a dose of oxy-gen's Jailbreak GI a few hours before hauling. I hope it helps him as welll! I hope I can find the Renew Gold sometime soon. I have wanted to feed it from day one, but having a hard time finding it. I know my gelding would love to keep his alfalfa! I'll try to find labels for the other hays! When you say " add up to 10% " do you mean that feed and hay %s together must not exceed 10? As in I can't feed a 13% feed and a 8% hay? (just made up a hay number off the top of my head as I really don't know much about hay values other than protein wise) because I would be at 21% and more than double what his NSC intake can be? I have eliminated the 16% NSC feed from his diet (which is a shame because he really looks amazing on it, hoping that doesn't change!!) and have added a small bit of Rice Bran Oil in with his soaked hay. I just sent my tail hairs in... should hear something by mid next week!! | |
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"Drank the Kool Aid"
Posts: 5496
Location: Iowa, LA | Bumping up for someone requesting info | |
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 Champ
Posts: 19623
Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm | Bumping. Everyone needs to be aware of this. | |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 827
Location: KS | Does anyone know the PSSM or even RER status of Dashin Elvis? Thanks. | |
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 Neat Freak
Posts: 11216
Location: Wonderful Wyoming | Grippen N Rippen - 2015-01-08 10:12 AM Does anyone know the PSSM or even RER status of Dashin Elvis? Thanks.
it is public knowledge IF they have been tested through AQHA. You can call them and see if he has a 5 panel test done. I think he is deceased though so may be too late. | |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 827
Location: KS | I was aware of that, but thanks. He is deceased. I was hoping someone might have an idea. | |
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Expert
Posts: 1694
Location: Willows, CA | Longneck - 2014-08-06 3:28 PM
roxieannie - 2014-08-06 1:28 PM Also, Face Book has a good forum PSSM forumÂ
alfalfa, Shredded Beet pulp, Wheat middlings, Ground oat hulls, Ground Soy hulls, Ground Flaxseed, Soy oil, calcium lignin Sulfonate, calcium carbonate, mono-dicalcium phosphate, Salt, Vitamin a, natural Flavor, Vitamin c, Biotin, B concentrate, calcium pantothenate, choline chloride, natural Vitamin E,
12
Tocopherols, Vitamin D, l-lysine, magnesium oxide, Dl-methionine, niacin,
riboflavin, Selenium, Thiamine, cobalt carbonate, copper Sulfate, Ferrous carbonate, manganous oxide, calcium Iodate, Zinc oxide.Â
this is the Purina WellSolve L/S (low starch) feed. It is a great feed to transition to. You can tell with in a week, most horses, that it's working. As your horse gets off sugars.Â
Read all you can, not all horses respond the same. Some need more management and added vit E and magnesium to help with soreness.Â
My horse did pretty good on this feed, but he wasn't all the way there with his issues. Reading different information, trying different things that worked for others, I narrowed it down to alfalfa cubes, Renew Gold and a flake of alfalfa and regular hay.Â
Look for labels and read the information. Especially sugars and starch information. They should add up to 10% or as close as you can get.Â
Im not sure of the Timothy hay you asked about. You have to find the sugar starch content.
Thanks!! I will see if I can get the Wellsolve somewhere. I am starting to give him a dose of oxy-gen's Jailbreak GI a few hours before hauling. I hope it helps him as welll! I hope I can find the Renew Gold sometime soon. I have wanted to feed it from day one, but having a hard time finding it. I know my gelding would love to keep his alfalfa! I'll try to find labels for the other hays!  When you say " add up to 10% " do you mean that feed and hay %s together must not exceed 10? As in I can't feed a 13% feed and a 8% hay? (just made up a hay number off the top of my head as I really don't know much about hay values other than protein wise) because I would be at 21% and more than double what his NSC intake can be? I have eliminated the 16% NSC feed from his diet (which is a shame because he really looks amazing on it, hoping that doesn't change!!) and have added a small bit of Rice Bran Oil in with his soaked hay.  I just sent my tail hairs in... should hear something by mid next week!!
When you figure total NSC you need to calculate the amount of any single component fed (say 18 pounds of hay) x 454 (the number of grams in one pound) then multiply that by the Percentage of NSC. This gives you the NSC contribution of that part of the diet in grams. You do this for every component in the diet, then add them together and divide that number the total number of grams fed in per day (pounds x 454) for the percent of NSC from everything combined.
Example; 18 pounds of 8% NSC hay= 18lbs x 454 = 8172 grams. 8172 x 8% NSC = 653 grams of NSC contributed to the diet each day by that hay.
1 pound of Renew Gold = 1lb x 454 = 454 grams. 454 x 17% NSC = 77 grams of NSC contributed to the diet by Renew Gold.
Now, add the component contributions together, 653+ 77 = 730 grams of NSC in the diet. The total diet in this example is 19 pounds which = 8626 grams. If you divide the grams of NSC by the number of grams in the total diet you get 730 divided by 8626 = .085 or 8.5% NSC for the entire 19 pound daily diet.
Now put 4 pounds of a lower 12% NSC feed into the diet in place of Renew Gold. They hay numbers stay the same.
NSC from the feed increases to 4 pounds x 454 =1816 x 12% = 217 grams of NSC
to see how this effects the whole diet follow the same calculation as above.
we know the hay number will be 653 grams of NSC contribution
add 653 + 217 to = 870 grams total NSC
The total diet is now 22 pounds which =9988 grams. So 870 divided by 9988 = 0.872 or 8.72% NSC for the whole daily diet.
While the NSC number for Renew Gold is higher than the 12% NSC feed number, the % for the entire diet is less. For feeds that might be higher in NSC the difference can be very high as the number of pounds fed goes up.
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"Drank the Kool Aid"
Posts: 5496
Location: Iowa, LA | Bumping this thread to include a portion of a recent PSSM Type 2 report stating what I always felt... That we will see much more Type 2 positive horses in barrel racing, rather than Type 1.
"Type 2 PSSM seems to be more common in higher performance horses such as barrel racing, reining and cutting horses compared to the high prevalence of type 1 PSSM in halter horses."
(From U of M report.) | |
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Rad Dork
Posts: 5218
Location: Oklahoma | winwillows - 2015-01-08 5:08 PM
Longneck - 2014-08-06 3:28 PM
roxieannie - 2014-08-06 1:28 PM Also, Face Book has a good forum PSSM forumÂ
alfalfa, Shredded Beet pulp, Wheat middlings, Ground oat hulls, Ground Soy hulls, Ground Flaxseed, Soy oil, calcium lignin Sulfonate, calcium carbonate, mono-dicalcium phosphate, Salt, Vitamin a, natural Flavor, Vitamin c, Biotin, B concentrate, calcium pantothenate, choline chloride, natural Vitamin E,
12
Tocopherols, Vitamin D, l-lysine, magnesium oxide, Dl-methionine, niacin,
riboflavin, Selenium, Thiamine, cobalt carbonate, copper Sulfate, Ferrous carbonate, manganous oxide, calcium Iodate, Zinc oxide.Â
this is the Purina WellSolve L/S (low starch) feed. It is a great feed to transition to. You can tell with in a week, most horses, that it's working. As your horse gets off sugars.Â
Read all you can, not all horses respond the same. Some need more management and added vit E and magnesium to help with soreness.Â
My horse did pretty good on this feed, but he wasn't all the way there with his issues. Reading different information, trying different things that worked for others, I narrowed it down to alfalfa cubes, Renew Gold and a flake of alfalfa and regular hay.Â
Look for labels and read the information. Especially sugars and starch information. They should add up to 10% or as close as you can get.Â
Im not sure of the Timothy hay you asked about. You have to find the sugar starch content.
Thanks!! I will see if I can get the Wellsolve somewhere. I am starting to give him a dose of oxy-gen's Jailbreak GI a few hours before hauling. I hope it helps him as welll! I hope I can find the Renew Gold sometime soon. I have wanted to feed it from day one, but having a hard time finding it. I know my gelding would love to keep his alfalfa! I'll try to find labels for the other hays!  When you say " add up to 10% " do you mean that feed and hay %s together must not exceed 10? As in I can't feed a 13% feed and a 8% hay? (just made up a hay number off the top of my head as I really don't know much about hay values other than protein wise) because I would be at 21% and more than double what his NSC intake can be? I have eliminated the 16% NSC feed from his diet (which is a shame because he really looks amazing on it, hoping that doesn't change!!) and have added a small bit of Rice Bran Oil in with his soaked hay.  I just sent my tail hairs in... should hear something by mid next week!!
When you figure total NSC you need to calculate the amount of any single component fed (say 18 pounds of hay ) x 454 (the number of grams in one pound ) then multiply that by the Percentage of NSC. This gives you the NSC contribution of that part of the diet in grams. You do this for every component in the diet, then add them together and divide that number the total number of grams fed in per day (pounds x 454 ) for the percent of NSC from everything combined.
Example; 18 pounds of 8% NSC hay= 18lbs x 454 = 8172 grams. 8172 x 8% NSC = 653 grams of NSC contributed to the diet each day by that hay.
1 pound of Renew Gold = 1lb x 454 = 454 grams. 454 x 17% NSC = 77 grams of NSC contributed to the diet by Renew Gold.
Now, add the component contributions together, 653+ 77 = 730 grams of NSC in the diet. The total diet in this example is 19 pounds which = 8626 grams. If you divide the grams of NSC by the number of grams in the total diet you get 730 divided by 8626 = .085 or 8.5% NSC for the entire 19 pound daily diet.
Now put 4 pounds of a lower 12% NSC feed into the diet in place of Renew Gold. They hay numbers stay the same.
NSC from the feed increases to 4 pounds x 454 =1816 x 12% = 217 grams of NSC
to see how this effects the whole diet follow the same calculation as above.
we know the hay number will be 653 grams of NSC contribution
add 653 + 217 to = 870 grams total NSC
The total diet is now 22 pounds which =9988 grams. So 870 divided by 9988 = 0.872 or 8.72% NSC for the whole daily diet.
While the NSC number for Renew Gold is higher than the 12% NSC feed number, the % for the entire diet is less. For feeds that might be higher in NSC the difference can be very high as the number of pounds fed goes up.
Win,
Thanks so much for the breakdown!!!!! Greatly appreciated!!! | |
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Common Sense and then some
Location: So. California | Interesting information from Dr. Valburg, UofMinn
Type 2 PSSM
There is much less known about type 2 PSSM, because as it turns out, previous research on PSSM has
largely involved horses with type 1 PSSM. Current knowledge of type 2 PSSM is based on retrospective
evaluation of cases diagnosed with PSSM by muscle biopsy that are now known be free of the GYS1 mutati
on and a few years of prospective clinical cases.
Prevalence: Approximately 28% of cases of PSSM diagnosed by muscle biopsy in Quarter Horses do not
have the GYS1 mutation. Type 2 PSSM seems to be more common in higher performance horses such as
barrel racing, reining and cutting horses compared to the high prevalence of type 1 PSSM in halter horses.
About 80% of cases of PSSM diagnosed by biopsy in Warmbloods have type 2 PSSM. Breeds affected
include Dutch Warmbloods, Swedish Warmbloods, Hanoverians, Friesians, Selle Francais, Westfalian,
Canadian Warmblood, Irish Sport Horse, Gerdlander, Husien, and Icelandic horses. Many other light breeds
have also been diagnosed with type 2 PSSM including Morgans, Arabians, Standardbreds and
Thoroughbreds.
Pathophysiology: The cause of type 2 PSSM is currently unknown. It may well be that there are a group of
conditions that have separate causes but share common findings of glycogen accumulation and poor
performance. A heritable predisposition is suspected in Quarter Horses but yet to be proven. Recent
research does not support higher than normal muscle glycogen concentrations in muscle from horses with
type 2 PSSM. The glycogen aggregates within the cells but the total amount is not increased as in type 1
PSSM.
Acute Clinical signs: Horses with type 2 PSSM do not necessarily have the same calm temperament as
horses with type 1 PSSM. In adults, acute clinical signs of rhabdomyolysis are similar between type 1 and
type 2 PSSM. Muscle atrophy after rhabdomyolysis is a common complaint in Quarter Horses with type 2
PSSM and this may not be preceded by exercise. There are more Quarter Horses less than one year of age
reported with type 2 PSSM than type 1 PSSM and these foals may present with an inability to rise or a stiff
hind limb gait.
Chronic clinical signs:Chronic signs of type 2 PSSM are often most closely related to poor performance
rather than recurrent ER and elevations in serum CK activity. An undiagnosed gait abnormality, sore
muscles and drop in energy level and willingness to perform after 5 -10 min of exercise are common
complaints with type 2 PSSM. Warmbloods with type 2 PSSM have painful firm back and hindquarter
muscles, reluctance to collect and engage the hindquarters, poor rounding over fences, gait abnormalities,
and slow onset of atrophy especially when out of work. The mean age of onset of clinical signs in
Warmbloods is between 8 and 11 years of age with the median CK and AST activity being 323 and 331U/L,
respectively.
Diagnosis: Type 2 PSSM must be diagnosed by muscle biopsy where increased or abnormal PAS positive
material that is usually amylase-sensitive is apparent particularly in subsarcolemmal locations. False positive
diagnosis is possible for type 2 PSSM in highly trained horses that normally have higher muscle glycogen
concentrations or in formalin fixed sections which show a greater deposition of subsarcolemmal glycogen
even in healthy horses. Our laboratory grades polysaccharide accumulation as mild, moderate, and severe
where mild accumulation represents a category which has a higher chance of being a false positive
diagnosis. Mild PSSM cases in particular should receive a full physical examination to ensure that there are
not other underlying causes for performance problems. | |
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