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  Warmblood with Wings
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Location: Florida.. | my point is .. he can produce good horses.. just because they dont win at barrelracing doesnt mean they arent good horses.. also I think to many focus on clones being a issue .I have no yes or no about any of it.. but it gets rather tiring hearing how so many put so much on the cloned .. and not enough on the stallions reproducing out there breeding to just make $$...over and over again..quality is better then quantity |
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 More bootie than waist!
Posts: 18425
Location: Riding Crackhead. | Bibliafarm - 2013-12-01 9:47 AM my point is .. he can produce good horses.. just because they dont win at barrelracing doesnt mean they arent good horses.. also I think to many focus on clones being a issue .I have no yes or no about any of it.. but it gets rather tiring hearing how so many put so much on the cloned .. and not enough on the stallions reproducing out there breeding to just make $$...over and over again..quality is better then quantity
You are so very right Bibs. I only have 1 broodmare and that's only because she's my retired barrel mare who poured out heart and soul for me so I want to "try" and get those genetics back for the future. I have no desire to have a stockpile of horses in fact I've left her open a year and now she'll foal in the spring. Whether I breed her back or not this spring is still up in the air. How many horses do I need? Each stallion I breed to gives me an anxiety attack because in my little world I feel like I need to make the most of that foal to represent that stallion to the best of my ability. Sadly my ability probably isn't up to the standards of what my horses should have. I have a long yearling filly sired by Bender. I don't want to let Tia down. I'm weird like that though. |
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Expert
Posts: 1543
Location: MI | CYA Ranch - 2013-12-01 9:54 AM
Bibliafarm - 2013-12-01 9:47 AM  my point is .. he can produce good horses.. just because they dont win at barrelracing doesnt mean they arent good horses.. also I think to many focus on clones being a issue .I have no yes or no about any of it.. but it gets rather tiring hearing how so many put so much on the cloned .. and not enough on the stallions reproducing out there breeding to just make $$...over and over again..quality is better then quantity
You are so very right Bibs. I only have 1 broodmare and that's only because she's my retired barrel mare who poured out heart and soul for me so I want to "try" and get those genetics back for the future. I have no desire to have a stockpile of horses in fact I've left her open a year and now she'll foal in the spring. Whether I breed her back or not this spring is still up in the air. How many horses do I need? Each stallion I breed to gives me an anxiety attack because in my little world I feel like I need to make the most of that foal to represent that stallion to the best of my ability. Sadly my ability probably isn't up to the standards of what my horses should have. I have a long yearling filly sired by Bender. I don't want to let Tia down. I'm weird like that though.Â
I get what you're saying. I think what you guys are saying makes a lot of sense.
I have to wonder how much of an incorrect emphasis we are putting on clones being the exact same as their original? I don't know if this will come out right, but I guess much of what I'm wondering is the age-old genetics vs. environment emphasis on growth and development. I'm not discounting that the DNA is the same, but like Clayton, while built much like Scamper, it appears that he has different markings (star, snip, etc)...so I would imagine that there are other differences as well? Maybe not...
I guess another way to put it - do you breed to a stud only for their DNA? Or do you breed for how the horse expresses that DNA? (and might 2 horses 'express' their DNA differently due to different environment?) I think my point it - I'd rather take Clayton for who he is, rather than Scamper's clone.
I'll be honest, I'm an au natural type of gal, I wouldn't breed a mare to a clone if given a free breeding. BUT, that being said, I wouldn't judge a horse or person on their choices, or solely on their parentage. I like to see how they perform. |
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 Veteran
Posts: 272
| Ridenrun4745 - 2013-12-01 12:37 PM
CYA Ranch - 2013-12-01 9:54 AM
Bibliafarm - 2013-12-01 9:47 AM  my point is .. he can produce good horses.. just because they dont win at barrelracing doesnt mean they arent good horses.. also I think to many focus on clones being a issue .I have no yes or no about any of it.. but it gets rather tiring hearing how so many put so much on the cloned .. and not enough on the stallions reproducing out there breeding to just make $$...over and over again..quality is better then quantity
You are so very right Bibs. I only have 1 broodmare and that's only because she's my retired barrel mare who poured out heart and soul for me so I want to "try" and get those genetics back for the future. I have no desire to have a stockpile of horses in fact I've left her open a year and now she'll foal in the spring. Whether I breed her back or not this spring is still up in the air. How many horses do I need? Each stallion I breed to gives me an anxiety attack because in my little world I feel like I need to make the most of that foal to represent that stallion to the best of my ability. Sadly my ability probably isn't up to the standards of what my horses should have. I have a long yearling filly sired by Bender. I don't want to let Tia down. I'm weird like that though.Â
I get what you're saying. I think what you guys are saying makes a lot of sense.
I have to wonder how much of an incorrect emphasis we are putting on clones being the exact same as their original? I don't know if this will come out right, but I guess much of what I'm wondering is the age-old genetics vs. environment emphasis on growth and development. I'm not discounting that the DNA is the same, but like Clayton, while built much like Scamper, it appears that he has different markings (star, snip, etc )...so I would imagine that there are other differences as well? Maybe not...
I guess another way to put it - do you breed to a stud only for their DNA? Or do you breed for how the horse expresses that DNA? (and might 2 horses 'express' their DNA differently due to different environment? ) I think my point it - I'd rather take Clayton for who he is, rather than Scamper's clone.
I'll be honest, I'm an au natural type of gal, I wouldn't breed a mare to a clone if given a free breeding. BUT, that being said, I wouldn't judge a horse or person on their choices, or solely on their parentage. I like to see how they perform.
Here is a way to look at it. FDD Dynasty is a TWIN to First Dynastia. TWIN- exact same DNA. However FDD Dynasty ran better and so far is producing better and stands for a higher stud fee. While First Dynastia stands at a lower price, doesn't get the quality book of mares FDD does. So, to answer your question people want not only the genetics but they want a sire who has performed and has proven himself as a sire of performers. |
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Expert
Posts: 1414
| CYA Ranch - 2013-12-01 10:54 AM Bibliafarm - 2013-12-01 9:47 AM my point is .. he can produce good horses.. just because they dont win at barrelracing doesnt mean they arent good horses.. also I think to many focus on clones being a issue .I have no yes or no about any of it.. but it gets rather tiring hearing how so many put so much on the cloned .. and not enough on the stallions reproducing out there breeding to just make $$...over and over again..quality is better then quantity You are so very right Bibs. I only have 1 broodmare and that's only because she's my retired barrel mare who poured out heart and soul for me so I want to "try" and get those genetics back for the future. I have no desire to have a stockpile of horses in fact I've left her open a year and now she'll foal in the spring. Whether I breed her back or not this spring is still up in the air. How many horses do I need? Each stallion I breed to gives me an anxiety attack because in my little world I feel like I need to make the most of that foal to represent that stallion to the best of my ability. Sadly my ability probably isn't up to the standards of what my horses should have. I have a long yearling filly sired by Bender. I don't want to let Tia down. I'm weird like that though.
I hate to see you in distress over this so I'll come get her. That way the pressure is on me and you can sleep good at night! 
I completely understand what you're saying, I feel the same way!!! |
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Posts: 292
Location: Northeast Nebraska | So, Scampers sire and dam, did they produce anything besides Scamper that was any good? |
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 Proud to be Deplorable
Posts: 1929
| GoGaited - 2013-12-01 3:16 PM
So, Scampers sire and dam, did they produce anything besides Scamper that was any good?
Not really. As far as I am concerned Scamper was a freak. To me if you look at his blood lines nothing screams barrel horse. Yet he is by far the best barrel horse ever. As to Clayton who knows as of yet he is just an experiment. I think he has a good chance at it mainly because he has been bred to some really good mares. If his colts do well than the question will be does it come from the mares or the stud. Right now I would lean towards the mares and the money behind them. |
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 I Prefer to Live in Fantasy Land
Posts: 64864
Location: In the Hills of Texas | jbhoot - 2013-12-01 3:54 PM GoGaited - 2013-12-01 3:16 PM So, Scampers sire and dam, did they produce anything besides Scamper that was any good? Not really. As far as I am concerned Scamper was a freak. To me if you look at his blood lines nothing screams barrel horse. Yet he is by far the best barrel horse ever. As to Clayton who knows as of yet he is just an experiment. I think he has a good chance at it mainly because he has been bred to some really good mares. If his colts do well than the question will be does it come from the mares or the stud. Right now I would lean towards the mares and the money behind them.
I agree.
Years ago I tried a mare that was out of Scamper's sire and she was a total puke. She wasn't wired right.
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Miss Southern Sunshine
Posts: 7427
Location: South Central Florida | barrelracin85 - 2013-12-01 9:03 AM rockette - 2013-12-01 7:54 AM barrelracin85 - 2013-12-01 7:49 AM Just curious, does anyone know if any of the other horse clones have foals showing yet? I tried to see if any of the get out of the Smart Little Lena clones were showing yet but didn't have any luck. I know it's just like any stud though. It's all a gamble. Amazing performers do not always mean amazing producers. This is just one of the most expensive gambles we have seen lol. None of the clones in cutting ever made it to a futurity that I remember. Most SLL went abroad for breeding purposes. The other clones in cutting are now breeding. Nothing from a second generation clone is old enough, I believe. Yeah that's about all I found in regards to SLL. Of course he is different because he proved himself as a producer before he was cloned. With Scamper it is completely unknown until now. I want to say that the people behind the SLL clones voted not to show the clones and to use them strictly for breeding. There was a video of one cutting but I don't think they actually competed on him. Just did it more to show he could and would do it. I didn't think the Hotshot clones were breeding yet and couldn't remember what other horses were cloned. I just don't follow it enough honestly.
Im pretty sure there is only one Hot Shot clone. I read there were 4 or 5 implanted. First one born was sold and it passed away from something NONgentic, like an accident or something. Then the one they have now and the other two did not take. I'm not and expert, but I like watching and I'm pretty sure this is correct.
However the Hot Shot clones should not be old enough yet. Not sure he is either. I think he is maybe 4 this year? He is breding, but I don't know if he did last year, but his ad is in Barrel Horse News...well not a specific ad but he is listed on the breeders page. |
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Miss Southern Sunshine
Posts: 7427
Location: South Central Florida | jbhoot - 2013-12-01 4:54 PM GoGaited - 2013-12-01 3:16 PM So, Scampers sire and dam, did they produce anything besides Scamper that was any good? Not really. As far as I am concerned Scamper was a freak. To me if you look at his blood lines nothing screams barrel horse. Yet he is by far the best barrel horse ever. As to Clayton who knows as of yet he is just an experiment. I think he has a good chance at it mainly because he has been bred to some really good mares. If his colts do well than the question will be does it come from the mares or the stud. Right now I would lean towards the mares and the money behind them.
Agreed, but I think this is true of any stud. If you look at the best of the best Studs, and the star horses from their breding, very VERY few are from no name mare sires. I'm not sure that was gramatically correct, but I think you know what I mean. |
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I Really Love Jeans
Posts: 3173
Location: North Dakota | The people that pay the premium to breed to a clone put the time and professional training into the horse they get. When you have a great mare and top notch training they are going to do better than average. I personally would not breed to a clone but i don't have any negative feelings towards anyone who does. |
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More bootie than waist!
Posts: 18425
Location: Riding Crackhead. | roanrider - 2013-12-01 2:25 PM CYA Ranch - 2013-12-01 10:54 AM Bibliafarm - 2013-12-01 9:47 AM my point is .. he can produce good horses.. just because they dont win at barrelracing doesnt mean they arent good horses.. also I think to many focus on clones being a issue .I have no yes or no about any of it.. but it gets rather tiring hearing how so many put so much on the cloned .. and not enough on the stallions reproducing out there breeding to just make $$...over and over again..quality is better then quantity You are so very right Bibs. I only have 1 broodmare and that's only because she's my retired barrel mare who poured out heart and soul for me so I want to "try" and get those genetics back for the future. I have no desire to have a stockpile of horses in fact I've left her open a year and now she'll foal in the spring. Whether I breed her back or not this spring is still up in the air. How many horses do I need? Each stallion I breed to gives me an anxiety attack because in my little world I feel like I need to make the most of that foal to represent that stallion to the best of my ability. Sadly my ability probably isn't up to the standards of what my horses should have. I have a long yearling filly sired by Bender. I don't want to let Tia down. I'm weird like that though.
There are some days I'd put a stamp on her butt and send her to you. Reason being is I've spoiled her so much she's annoying as hell.  |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 898
Location: Mountains of VA | What people tend to forget...........the "stars" have to be aligned just right for any horse to become a GREAT horse. Scamper is the perfect example. Secretariat is another great example and I can think of many more.........Hotshot. Bloodlines, conformation, etc. go nowhere if not in the right hands at the right time.
PLUS, many GREAT horses are standing around in somebody's field or "gasp' in somebody's backyard. It just depends on how much money an owner is willing to spend to get the horse "proven". Heck, at the right show, barrel run, etc. any horse could be a 1st class horse. |
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 Ms. Manners
Posts: 1820
Location: Oklahoma | Ridenrun4745 - 2013-12-01 12:37 PM CYA Ranch - 2013-12-01 9:54 AM Bibliafarm - 2013-12-01 9:47 AM my point is .. he can produce good horses.. just because they dont win at barrelracing doesnt mean they arent good horses.. also I think to many focus on clones being a issue .I have no yes or no about any of it.. but it gets rather tiring hearing how so many put so much on the cloned .. and not enough on the stallions reproducing out there breeding to just make $$...over and over again..quality is better then quantity You are so very right Bibs. I only have 1 broodmare and that's only because she's my retired barrel mare who poured out heart and soul for me so I want to "try" and get those genetics back for the future. I have no desire to have a stockpile of horses in fact I've left her open a year and now she'll foal in the spring. Whether I breed her back or not this spring is still up in the air. How many horses do I need? Each stallion I breed to gives me an anxiety attack because in my little world I feel like I need to make the most of that foal to represent that stallion to the best of my ability. Sadly my ability probably isn't up to the standards of what my horses should have. I have a long yearling filly sired by Bender. I don't want to let Tia down. I'm weird like that though. I get what you're saying. I think what you guys are saying makes a lot of sense. I have to wonder how much of an incorrect emphasis we are putting on clones being the exact same as their original? I don't know if this will come out right, but I guess much of what I'm wondering is the age-old genetics vs. environment emphasis on growth and development. I'm not discounting that the DNA is the same, but like Clayton, while built much like Scamper, it appears that he has different markings (star, snip, etc )...so I would imagine that there are other differences as well? Maybe not... I guess another way to put it - do you breed to a stud only for their DNA? Or do you breed for how the horse expresses that DNA? (and might 2 horses 'express' their DNA differently due to different environment? ) I think my point it - I'd rather take Clayton for who he is, rather than Scamper's clone. I'll be honest, I'm an au natural type of gal, I wouldn't breed a mare to a clone if given a free breeding. BUT, that being said, I wouldn't judge a horse or person on their choices, or solely on their parentage. I like to see how they perform.
Excellent point . . . |
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Ms. Manners
Posts: 1820
Location: Oklahoma | Wouldn't it be interesting if they found Clayton's foals excelled at reining or another discipline other than barrels? That'd be a hoot. |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 808
| dhdqhllc - 2013-12-01 6:36 AM
Fancie_That_Chrome_ - 2013-11-30 7:48 PM barrelracin85 - 2013-11-29 4:42 PM Ridenrun4745 - 2013-11-29 4:33 PM LRQHS - 2013-11-29 4:03 PM SKM - 2013-11-29 3:55 PM
JMHO but they have no choice but to prove him with his first 2 crops. He was set up to prove Greatness by being born to begin with.
1) He's bred an elite book of mares his entire career as a stallion to date.
2) He has a higher stud fee even as a freshman sire than even Frechman's Guy or Dash Ta Fame ever did. Name one stallion that sires predominately barrel horses that has ever stood for $4,000+ their first year at stud.
3) They've hand picked the mares and given him more opportunities that way than even Frenchmans Guy or any other well know barrel sire who started out just breeding any mare that booked to them.Â
4) His foals are in the hands of the top trainers in the nation.
5) They have hung their hat on the fact that Scamper was the most elite barrel horse of all time so he deserves to pass on his genetics.
I hate to say this but if he doesn't produce winners in his first couple of crops, then it wasn't because of lack of mares, training, etc. It will be because of lack of siring ability. Again, that is JHMO.
I second that. Third. Very valid points.
I don't think anyone is saying the foals will be/are worthless, just that I wouldn't want to spend $2500/$4000 to get a foal that will never be more then a 3D/4D horse.
Edited by The1CowgirlsEnvy 2013-12-01 8:31 PM
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Expert
Posts: 1414
| CYA Ranch - 2013-12-01 7:52 PM roanrider - 2013-12-01 2:25 PM CYA Ranch - 2013-12-01 10:54 AM Bibliafarm - 2013-12-01 9:47 AM my point is .. he can produce good horses.. just because they dont win at barrelracing doesnt mean they arent good horses.. also I think to many focus on clones being a issue .I have no yes or no about any of it.. but it gets rather tiring hearing how so many put so much on the cloned .. and not enough on the stallions reproducing out there breeding to just make $$...over and over again..quality is better then quantity You are so very right Bibs. I only have 1 broodmare and that's only because she's my retired barrel mare who poured out heart and soul for me so I want to "try" and get those genetics back for the future. I have no desire to have a stockpile of horses in fact I've left her open a year and now she'll foal in the spring. Whether I breed her back or not this spring is still up in the air. How many horses do I need? Each stallion I breed to gives me an anxiety attack because in my little world I feel like I need to make the most of that foal to represent that stallion to the best of my ability. Sadly my ability probably isn't up to the standards of what my horses should have. I have a long yearling filly sired by Bender. I don't want to let Tia down. I'm weird like that though.
I'll be west bound in the morning.  |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 557
Location: Kansas and loving it | hotpaints - 2013-12-01 7:12 PM
What people tend to forget...........the "stars" have to be aligned just right for any horse to become a GREAT horse. Scamper is the perfect example. Secretariat is another great example and I can think of many more.........Hotshot. Bloodlines, conformation, etc. go nowhere if not in the right hands at the right time.
PLUS, many GREAT horses are standing around in somebody's field or "gasp' in somebody's backyard. It just depends on how much money an owner is willing to spend to get the horse "proven". Heck, at the right show, barrel run, etc. any horse could be a 1st class horse.
Actually I disagree with Secretariat being in that category. His sire Bold Ruler led th TB sire list 9 times. His dam Something Royal was the daughter of an English triple Crown winner, she also produced stakes winner Sir Gaylord.
Edited by rockette 2013-12-01 8:51 PM
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 972
Location: Texas! | I think she means the whole Bold Ruler colts were not known for running distance races and he won...smoked the field in the Belmont by 31 lengths proving everyone wrong on his ability to run distance. |
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 Night Chat Leader
Posts: 13150
Location: Home....Smiling M Farms | The only Hot Shot clone left, is standing this year. He's at VF with an intro fee of $2500.
5 were 'made', 3 made it to birth, 2 died in freak accidents. Another Shot is the only one left. |
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