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 Wishing I were a Wildcat
  
Location: 'Hawk Country | dme0324 - 2013-12-02 5:41 PMI know it's unlikely, but it seems like it would hush some of the gossip & speculation if results were released?
Out of curiousity, how do you feel about that?
I wish they would/could release the results. That way everyone who thinks/believes they are being beaten by a needle would see the proof that they are not. | |
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 Expert
Posts: 5293
 
| casualdust07 - 2013-12-02 9:58 AM
HotbearLVR - 2013-12-02 9:41 AM
It seems to me that certain "drugs" such as Legend and Adequan shouldn't be banned. Neither should NSAIDS like Bute or Banamine. In fact, I'm not sure certain bronchodilators should be banned, provided a vet is willing to provide documentation that a horse has reactive airway disease. Clearly, certain stimulants and anabolics have no place, though.
Those drugs are not banned. I am not sure about the regulations with adequan and legend, but the NSAIDs are not banned. You have to follow rules when administering them- you have to give the label dose of the drug, and you can't give multiple types of NSAIDs at the same time.
I'm on the fence with bronchodilators. I know several people who were giving clenbuterol without a diagnosis and just did it because they fire harder. We've had to use it on horses diagnosed with cicatrix, even though I am not 100% how much its actually doing since the cicatrix is on their pharynx…we've also used it on bleeders every once in a while..
Ventipulmin is a beta agonist, which I know you know all that. So with horses not only is it increasing their airways, it's also ramping up their sympathetic tone- increasing heart rate, contractility,conduction velocity, skeletal muscle strength, skeletal muscle vasodilation, etc.
Just a fun side note- the reason why horses sweat when given ventipulmin is because they are adrenergic sweaters.
My horse has severe dust allergies and I use ventipulmin every run. He feels like he is running the same as usual but does clock half second faster. I guess the dust allergy is a blessing! LOL | |
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Wishing I were a Wildcat
Location: 'Hawk Country | Swannranch - 2013-12-02 9:16 PMWhen you say "no problems have been found" are you speaking with authority? Is that from the WPRA? Or because you have not heard of any? I'm not sure I understand your post. I'm not being sarcastic, I'm just curious what your statment is based on. If your do know, for sure, do you know if they are testing at the NFR, and if not why not?
I have 'heard' of some big names being accused of druging their horses. I would have no idea (and probably would not pay attention) if it was true, or jealousy or just whinners that got out run. But I can say several of the names I heard are Not still running, and Not still winning, so that part of the statement isn't really accurate. I would have no idea if the were ever tested because it's not published.
But I can say the LEGAL LIMITS ON LEGAL DRUGS can test all over the place under certain circumstances. Like not drinking enough water (as some horses on the raod), not technically dehydrated but lower water intake can of set half life by a lot.
But my original post was just asking and I'm still curious.
I have no authority, but I know who to ask and am involved. You don't have to believe me.
Information always gets out, especially with social media.
Examples---
When Sherry got tested at Reno, the word was spread in about 3 minutes. What was mentioned as an issue was exactly what happened. She needed to get out of Reno and on to the next place right then. They pulled the blood at the arena with people watching. Not that she had anything to hide, but people knew right then and there.
When they tested at Calgary, word was going around that one girl switched horses because of the testing. That was wrong because she rode that same horse through all rounds in the pool.
At another rodeo a girl got picked and she said she would test positive. I believe that she had used Ventipulmin.
If there had been any tests positive for narcotics, people would know. | |
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Wishing I were a Wildcat
Location: 'Hawk Country | FLITASTIC - 2013-12-03 8:37 AM casualdust07 - 2013-12-02 9:58 AM HotbearLVR - 2013-12-02 9:41 AM It seems to me that certain "drugs" such as Legend and Adequan shouldn't be banned. Neither should NSAIDS like Bute or Banamine. In fact, I'm not sure certain bronchodilators should be banned, provided a vet is willing to provide documentation that a horse has reactive airway disease. Clearly, certain stimulants and anabolics have no place, though. Those drugs are not banned. I am not sure about the regulations with adequan and legend, but the NSAIDs are not banned. You have to follow rules when administering them- you have to give the label dose of the drug, and you can't give multiple types of NSAIDs at the same time. I'm on the fence with bronchodilators. I know several people who were giving clenbuterol without a diagnosis and just did it because they fire harder. We've had to use it on horses diagnosed with cicatrix, even though I am not 100% how much its actually doing since the cicatrix is on their pharynx…we've also used it on bleeders every once in a while.. Ventipulmin is a beta agonist, which I know you know all that. So with horses not only is it increasing their airways, it's also ramping up their sympathetic tone- increasing heart rate, contractility,conduction velocity, skeletal muscle strength, skeletal muscle vasodilation, etc. Just a fun side note- the reason why horses sweat when given ventipulmin is because they are adrenergic sweaters. My horse has severe dust allergies and I use ventipulmin every run. He feels like he is running the same as usual but does clock half second faster. I guess the dust allergy is a blessing! LOL
He's running 1/2 second faster because he can BREATHE!!! It's not making him run faster than God made him capable of running. He is meeting his potential. Steroids will get an animal/person to the very top they can achieve. You can't make an animal/person faster than they were capable.
When horses on the track were all on steroids, there was still only one winner.
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1114
Location: CA | My guess is they will be testing at the NFR (big $$$$)... Also, at the reg rodeos I would think a blood draw would need to go to the lab and NO you wouldn't know the results right away, so if they stick them right there arena side, I would assume/guess the rider (WPRA member would get a notice in the mail if the horse tested positive or not).. So ,this is why the general public would not know if they were testing positve or not. | |
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Wishing I were a Wildcat
Location: 'Hawk Country | If you want to know right now, call Carolyn Vietor and ask her. No reason for her to not tell you. It won't be a secret come Thursday. | |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1114
Location: CA | Because I dont know this part, are the drug screens considered " Randoms"? (per the rule book or whatever) If this is the case then they are not going to say if and when they will do drug testing, NFR included. That is like employers that do drug screens (randoms specifically), they dont prewarn you that day or week prior too that they will be drug testing next week. Also, another question... has the PRCA impemented drug testing for horses? | |
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Wishing I were a Wildcat
Location: 'Hawk Country | allaboutme - 2013-12-03 2:46 PM Because I dont know this part, are the drug screens considered " Randoms"? (per the rule book or whatever) If this is the case then they are not going to say if and when they will do drug testing, NFR included. That is like employers that do drug screens (randoms specifically), they dont prewarn you that day or week prior too that they will be drug testing next week. Also, another question... has the PRCA impemented drug testing for horses?
~~doglady
Posted 2013-12-02 1:36 PM (#6879350 - in reply to #6878622)
Subject: RE: Drug testing at the NFR? Quote Reply Alert
The only year they drug tested at the nfr was l989 and they did the winner and a random draw. They followed us out of the alley and someone stayed with you until you cooled your horse out. They took urine and then we went to the drug tent and they took blood. My horse was the random draw the first go and the winner the 2nd so he got tested twice. THey took 40ccs of blood which I thought was a lot.
This only lasted for maybe 5 go rounds but maybe only four I can't remember until it was stopped because of a lawsuit. Sherry Cervi's grey horse Troubles was not having any part of the blood being drawn and nearly tore the tent apart. It was endangering him and everyone around him so that was the main reason it was stopped. Someone or some horse was going to get hurt. They didn't find anything illegal then either but of course that was a long time ago and I don't think we had that many drugs we knew about or at least I didn't! haha
Edited by ozcancrasher13 2013-12-03 3:13 PM
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 You get what you give
Posts: 13030
Location: Texas | ozcancrasher13 - 2013-12-03 9:39 AM
FLITASTIC - 2013-12-03 8:37 AM casualdust07 - 2013-12-02 9:58 AM HotbearLVR - 2013-12-02 9:41 AM It seems to me that certain "drugs" such as Legend and Adequan shouldn't be banned. Neither should NSAIDS like Bute or Banamine. In fact, I'm not sure certain bronchodilators should be banned, provided a vet is willing to provide documentation that a horse has reactive airway disease. Clearly, certain stimulants and anabolics have no place, though. Those drugs are not banned. I am not sure about the regulations with adequan and legend, but the NSAIDs are not banned. You have to follow rules when administering them- you have to give the label dose of the drug, and you can't give multiple types of NSAIDs at the same time. I'm on the fence with bronchodilators. I know several people who were giving clenbuterol without a diagnosis and just did it because they fire harder. We've had to use it on horses diagnosed with cicatrix, even though I am not 100% how much its actually doing since the cicatrix is on their pharynx…we've also used it on bleeders every once in a while.. Ventipulmin is a beta agonist, which I know you know all that. So with horses not only is it increasing their airways, it's also ramping up their sympathetic tone- increasing heart rate, contractility,conduction velocity, skeletal muscle strength, skeletal muscle vasodilation, etc. Just a fun side note- the reason why horses sweat when given ventipulmin is because they are adrenergic sweaters. My horse has severe dust allergies and I use ventipulmin every run. He feels like he is running the same as usual but does clock half second faster. I guess the dust allergy is a blessing! LOL
When horses on the track were all on steroids, there was still only one winner. Â
I am not saying ventipulmin is bad or whatever. we have a horse who runs on it all summer. I DO believe that steroids and other drugs can take your horse to a higher level than they are naturally predisposed to.
What I am actually more concerned with are the potential side effects of people who administer medications to horses without knowing. The whole thing about NSAIDs in my mind is less about trying to knock tenths off, and more about realizing the risk of damaging the horse's body by overloading them on NSAIDs. I've seen it time and time again where people give bute or previcox all weekend, slather surpass on a bunch of joints, and for good measure give a shot of banamine or dex ( I know Dex is not an NSAID) before a run. There is a *reason* why USEF says to pick one and follow the instructions.
My concern about clenbuterol is that many times people don't realize that you can cause your horse's heart to race when you give it. Watch how much you are supposed to give and follow the instructions. I love ventipulmin and living in southeast texas it has saved many of my horses when the weather makes it hard on them to breathe. Not to mention it helps them sweat.
I'm all for drug testing in the WPRA. they don't care about the banamine or the lasix (which you can give). I do know there are people out there running on the needle and giving things that have no place in a horse. Unfortunate, but they didn't just pull this idea out of thin air.
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Wishing I were a Wildcat
Location: 'Hawk Country | I'm not saying no one has done anything illegal ever.
People have watched someone block their horse's foot at a rodeo. I am just tired of it because, no matter what anyone says, there were certain people targeted. Those people aren't winning because they are doping. They are winning because of ability and horsepower. And the comments that I've heard..."I won't buy my card because I won't give my horse what those other people are giving to win." I can guarantee my friends who have made the NFR are not doping their horses.
If people were doing such bad things to these horses, they wouldn't perform for years and years at that level.
Also, because people seem to think that it is horrible if one of these wpra girls uses something like ventipulmin or stack bute and banamine, even before the drug policy, yet how many people on this website talk about how much they use ventipulmin right now. My vet has advised me to stack to help with pain from an abscess.
I don't have an issue with the policy and being inforced, I just am tired of people thinking many/most who win in rodeo are dope fiends.
Edited by ozcancrasher13 2013-12-03 3:48 PM
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 591
| doglady - 2013-12-02 11:36 AM The only year they drug tested at the nfr was l989 and they did the winner and a random draw. They followed us out of the alley and someone stayed with you until you cooled your horse out. They took urine and then we went to the drug tent and they took blood. My horse was the random draw the first go and the winner the 2nd so he got tested twice. THey took 40ccs of blood which I thought was a lot.
This only lasted for maybe 5 go rounds but maybe only four I can't remember until it was stopped because of a lawsuit. Sherry Cervi's grey horse Troubles was not having any part of the blood being drawn and nearly tore the tent apart. It was endangering him and everyone around him so that was the main reason it was stopped. Someone or some horse was going to get hurt. They didn't find anything illegal then either but of course that was a long time ago and I don't think we had that many drugs we knew about or at least I didn't! haha
OT, but who ran Troubles in 1989? Sherry didn't take him until 1994. | |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 591
| SKM - 2013-12-03 4:28 AM Does anyone honestly believe the drug testing policy was put into place to catch people using high levels of bute and banimine? Because if so... I have a gold brick I would like to sell you.
I also find it ironic that so many hold rodeo girls in such high regards that they swear up and down those girls would NEVER do anything wrong. I have a gold brick to sell you too, btw.
I know girls that have no problem stacking drugs for just about every run. I also know those that don't have a problem with using the knockoff Redbull in high doses because of the steroidal type properties. That's exactly why race horse people started using it when Winstral and Equipose got banned.
Am I saying all the girls are druggging their horses? No. But I am realistic enough to have seen that a lot of these girls don't deserve to be put on a pedestal because they win. Winning does not make a person a Class Act. Intregrity is what makes a person classy and a lot of girls are severly lacking that. JMHO.
Agreed. Not sure why so many think that winning makes people a "class act". I have found the opposite to be true in many cases from personal experience. A lot of people I read about in magazines and looked up to have not the greatest morals or personalities. But on the flip side there are those who are just what you read about. | |
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Mrs. Troy
Location: western Nebraska | 3 To Go - 2013-12-03 4:11 PM
doglady - 2013-12-02 11:36 AM The only year they drug tested at the nfr was l989 and they did the winner and a random draw.  They followed us out of the alley and someone stayed with you until you cooled your horse out. They took urine and then we went to the drug tent and they took blood. My horse was the random draw the first go and the winner the 2nd so he got tested twice.  THey took 40ccs of blood which I thought was a lot.
This only lasted for maybe 5 go rounds but maybe only four I can't remember until it was stopped because of a lawsuit.  Sherry Cervi's grey horse Troubles was not having any part of the blood being drawn and nearly tore the tent apart. It was endangering him and everyone around him so that was the main reason it was stopped.  Someone or some horse was going to get hurt.  They didn't find anything illegal then either but of course that was a long time ago and I don't think we had that many drugs we knew about or at least I didn't! haha
Â
OT, but who ran Troubles in 1989? Sherry didn't take him until 1994.
Well, I guess it must be old age because I thought it was Troubles. I guess not but that was the year they tested because in l992 the last time I went they didn't test. I sure could have sworn it was Troubles but I guess not. Now I am going to have to go watch the tape and see what horse it was. Thanks for setting me straight.
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Mrs. Troy
Location: western Nebraska | ok, I am wrong. It wasn't Troubles and Sherry Cervi that had the trouble in the drug testing tent. I am going to go through my tapes and figure it out. I am very sorry that I gave out the wrong information. I will get it right though.
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 Not Afraid to Work
Posts: 4717
| doglady - 2013-12-03 5:17 PM
ok, I am wrong. It wasn't Troubles and Sherry Cervi that had the trouble in the drug testing tent.  I am going to go through my tapes and figure it out. I am very sorry that I gave out the wrong information. I will get it right though.
Â
 We forgive you doglady!!!! It is an interesting aspect of it though and if you have a little shister to deal with. | |
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Miss Southern Sunshine
Posts: 7427
Location: South Central Florida | ozcancrasher13 - 2013-12-03 10:30 AM Swannranch - 2013-12-02 9:16 PMWhen you say "no problems have been found" are you speaking with authority? Is that from the WPRA? Or because you have not heard of any? I'm not sure I understand your post. I'm not being sarcastic, I'm just curious what your statment is based on. If your do know, for sure, do you know if they are testing at the NFR, and if not why not?
I have 'heard' of some big names being accused of druging their horses. I would have no idea (and probably would not pay attention) if it was true, or jealousy or just whinners that got out run. But I can say several of the names I heard are Not still running, and Not still winning, so that part of the statement isn't really accurate. I would have no idea if the were ever tested because it's not published.
But I can say the LEGAL LIMITS ON LEGAL DRUGS can test all over the place under certain circumstances. Like not drinking enough water (as some horses on the raod), not technically dehydrated but lower water intake can of set half life by a lot.
But my original post was just asking and I'm still curious. I have no authority, but I know who to ask and am involved. You don't have to believe me. Information always gets out, especially with social media. Examples--- When Sherry got tested at Reno, the word was spread in about 3 minutes. What was mentioned as an issue was exactly what happened. She needed to get out of Reno and on to the next place right then. They pulled the blood at the arena with people watching. Not that she had anything to hide, but people knew right then and there. When they tested at Calgary, word was going around that one girl switched horses because of the testing. That was wrong because she rode that same horse through all rounds in the pool. At another rodeo a girl got picked and she said she would test positive. I believe that she had used Ventipulmin. If there had been any tests positive for narcotics, people would know.
More questions for me...what is "stacking?" Is that giving like bute and banamine at the same time? I was told by a vet to do that for a hoof injury, but we wern't running.
I like the conversation though. I like the information and the differing points of view. I wish it could be discussed even more. I still think the tests and results, if positive for illegal, or banned, should be made public.
I really didn't mean to offend you so I hope I didn't. That's the problem with secret information. . .people know things, or think they do and information and truth become cloudy.
Thank you for answering the questions you could and I look forwardd to the NFR, with our with out testing!!!
added question, what does it mean to "block a horses foot at a rodeo"? Is that like a nerve block like I've heard of for Navicular horses? Or something else? That's a new one for me.
Edited by Swannranch 2013-12-03 6:58 PM
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Location: Down South Mississippi | Yes blocking a foot would be similar to nerving. It can be done for a temporary amount of time. It can last a day or two up to a couple wks. The point being so the horse would not be able to feel pain in their foot. | |
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 Talent Agent 
Location: OK panhandle | they did attempt drug testing one of the years Sherry ran Troubles and lawsuit was threatened because of how horrible Troubles was about the tests, I think they wanted their vet to do it but that was long time ago so memory may be foggy, if I'm wrong I apologize, but whatever year that was was last time it was attempted I believe. My guess is they will do it this year at NFR and if they do like they've done at past rodeos it's random, whatever number comes up, my mom got tested at Salinas. | |
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 Did I miss the party?
Posts: 3864
| Swannranch - 2013-12-03 4:52 PM ozcancrasher13 - 2013-12-03 10:30 AM Swannranch - 2013-12-02 9:16 PMWhen you say "no problems have been found" are you speaking with authority? Is that from the WPRA? Or because you have not heard of any? I'm not sure I understand your post. I'm not being sarcastic, I'm just curious what your statment is based on. If your do know, for sure, do you know if they are testing at the NFR, and if not why not?
I have 'heard' of some big names being accused of druging their horses. I would have no idea (and probably would not pay attention) if it was true, or jealousy or just whinners that got out run. But I can say several of the names I heard are Not still running, and Not still winning, so that part of the statement isn't really accurate. I would have no idea if the were ever tested because it's not published.
But I can say the LEGAL LIMITS ON LEGAL DRUGS can test all over the place under certain circumstances. Like not drinking enough water (as some horses on the raod), not technically dehydrated but lower water intake can of set half life by a lot.
But my original post was just asking and I'm still curious. I have no authority, but I know who to ask and am involved. You don't have to believe me.
Information always gets out, especially with social media.
Examples---
When Sherry got tested at Reno, the word was spread in about 3 minutes. What was mentioned as an issue was exactly what happened. She needed to get out of Reno and on to the next place right then. They pulled the blood at the arena with people watching. Not that she had anything to hide, but people knew right then and there.
When they tested at Calgary, word was going around that one girl switched horses because of the testing. That was wrong because she rode that same horse through all rounds in the pool.
At another rodeo a girl got picked and she said she would test positive. I believe that she had used Ventipulmin.
If there had been any tests positive for narcotics, people would know.
More questions for me...what is "stacking?" Is that giving like bute and banamine at the same time? I was told by a vet to do that for a hoof injury, but we wern't running.
I like the conversation though. I like the information and the differing points of view. I wish it could be discussed even more. I still think the tests and results, if positive for illegal, or banned, should be made public.
I really didn't mean to offend you so I hope I didn't. That's the problem with secret information. . .people know things, or think they do and information and truth become cloudy.
Thank you for answering the questions you could and I look forwardd to the NFR, with our with out testing!!!
added question, what does it mean to "block a horses foot at a rodeo"? Is that like a nerve block like I've heard of for Navicular horses? Or something else? That's a new one for me.
Stacking is using more than one NSAID at once (yes, like bute and banamine as was prescribed by your vet).
Blocking is deadening the nerves to a particular area of the horse. It is temporary. Like they do when they block your horse during a veterinary exam to assist in finding lameness issues.
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 Own It and Move On
Location: The edge of no where | ozcancrasher13 - 2013-12-03 3:45 PM
I'm not saying no one has done anything illegal ever.Â
People have watched someone block their horse's foot at a rodeo. I am just tired of it because, no matter what anyone says, there were certain people targeted. Those people aren't winning because they are doping. They are winning because of ability and horsepower. And the comments that I've heard..."I won't buy my card because I won't give my horse what those other people are giving to win." I can guarantee my friends who have made the NFR are not doping their horses.
If people were doing such bad things to these horses, they wouldn't perform for years and years at that level.
Also, because people seem to think that it is horrible if one of these wpra girls uses something like ventipulmin or stack bute and banamine, even before the drug policy, yet how many people on this website talk about how much they use ventipulmin right now.  My vet has advised me to stack to help with pain from an abscess.
I don't have an issue with the policy and being inforced, I just am tired of people thinking many/most who win in rodeo are dope fiends.
This is exactly the point I keep trying to make. Horses are not going to be able to perform for years, when you see girls being able to run the same horse year after year....then they must be doing something right!!! There is no way they are doping them to run faster, those horses are getting the best care possible.
I think the futurities would be a great place to test. Very different deal. | |
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