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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1032
 
Location: IL | CrossCreek - 2013-12-17 10:10 PM Blaundee - 2013-12-16 7:31 PM Or, what about a horse who has to have injections in his joints in order to run barrels? Is that in your opinion ethical? Are you serious?? I can't believe any barrel racer of any serious nature would even ASK that question! When joints are injected, pain is relieved. I don't have any problem running a pain-free horse. God put horses here for us to use and enjoy. Are you with PETA or something? There is nothing unethical about riding a horse that's been injected. The AQHA doesn't have an issue with it, why on earth do YOU?
ETA: I am a serious barrel racer who did question injections until I was properly educated on them. I had never had a horse that needed injections therefore I never knew much about them. Not everybody understands how injections work or when they should be used. After educating myself on injections by doing my own research, as well as speaking to my vet to make sure I had a proper understanding, I decided that I am PRO injections. However, I do believe they should be used wisely, for good reason, and only if it will BENEFIT the horse and not mask a more serious issue.
Edited by TACKyPaints 2013-12-17 10:30 PM
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 Pork Fat is my Favorite
Posts: 3791
  
Location: The Oklahoma plains. | SC Wrangler - 2013-12-17 9:16 AM I don't believe the answer will ever be black and white. There is no 100% wrong or right because every horse and owner is an individual and each situation is unique. It is a judgement call hence there can be 9999999999999999999 gazillion answers.
I agree and will add to the gazillion opinions. I think it is likely ok to me. But it is your call. I know a few on here ride lame horses because they refuse to use injections or meds- which I find more so morally wrong-jmo.
Lots of tangents and mine is a perfect time to use your mare as an example of why MRI's are so great although not affordable for most. That is why I have insurance. And it has saved me from injecting secondary issues, saved me from scrapping a good horse and saved me from putting more time and money or years of ownership in to a horse that would NEVER be sound. | |
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| jaydenw - 2013-12-17 9:10 PM
Sorry, don't want to steal your thread, but I haven't seen a whole lot of answers about what do you do with a mildly lame horse? I have one like that (he has arthritis in his fetlock and hocks) I feel guilty leaving them out in the pasture when he loves to work, but it's too hard on him to be my tough competitive barrel or pole horse. So what do you do with them???
I retired mine, he lives in the pasture, the first year was hard on him, after that he loves his life. He has been retired for 7 years | |
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 Good Grief!
Posts: 6343
Location: Cap'n Joan Rotgut.....alberta | I have 2....injections helped the one for a bit but she came back lame with clean x-rays..and my other mare has differnt issues......but they are both retired and maybe im just lucky that I haven enough space to do this........and they have both carried one baby each and I have full intentions of getting the one mare ai'd one more time......and I used to be non injections until a good friend smacked me upside the head..lolM | |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 999
Location: Sunny So Cal | There are very few horses out there that are perfectly sound. In fact, most of them are a tick off that only few can really see. My horse never fully recovered from an injury he did in his stall. We have no idea what was actually hurt on him but after 2 years he is almost back to normal but still is ever so slightly off going 1 direction. Most people can't tell but I can. But I still ride him and work him. If your horse likes to work and WANTS to and isn't showing pain I would continue on taking him on trail rides even if he is on bute/banamine. May just be how he is now. Plus spending time with you I'm sure makes him happy and will make him feel better. I say enjoy him :) | |
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 Born not Made
Posts: 2937
Location: North Dakota | I think it depends on each individual lameness.
For example: My gelding has a catching stifle issue. Part of the treatment is EXERCISE. (May also do an injection in the spring.) Yes, he's technically lame. But there is a way to make him comfortable. So the "strict rule" of "never ride a lame horse" doesn't exactly apply.
He also has a slight lameness on his front end. But it is resolved 100% with shoes. So again, there is a way to make him comfortable.
So it kinda depends on your defintion of lameness.
My mom's horse has chronic laminitis. She has good spells and bad spells. When she's feeling good, my mom will take her out for short, easy rides. She no longer barrel races on her because she can't handle it. During the bad spells, she doesn't get ridden. Is it wrong to ride her when she is feeling good? Some may say "yes" but ... she loves getting out of the pasture once in a while and her facial expressions and body language shows that she enjoys the outings.
My old gelding got arthritis in his hock and stifle. Per the instructions from the vet, I gave him bute daily just to simply keep him comfortable. He could clearly not be ridden. And I eventually put him down because I could tell he was getting grumpy (not like him) just being a pasture pet, from his arthritis pain, despite being on bute.
So I think it is a very individual thing that only YOU as the horse owner can decide if it is right to exercise your "lame" horse, although that statement should exclude those that are either ignorant or in denial of their horse's problems.
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  Extreme Veteran
Posts: 459
Location: La Vernia, TX | Every horse is an individual, and each situation is different. I require pretty regular medication and 'upkeep' to deal with the severe arthritis in my lower back. Now, there are certain things I should not do, but just because I have arthritis pain, does that mean I should stop working?
A horse that is acutely lame should not be ridden.
A horse that has a muscle injury should be allowed time to heal.
A horse that has a broken or chipped bone should have it fixed.
A horse that has a tendon injury should be treated and laid up until it heals.
A horse that has a chronic joint injury should be evaluated for severity, and a plan of action created. I do not believe in simply masking the pain and allowing a horse to run itself into the ground, but it's also unethical to work a horse that is in pain. An owner and veterinarian should work together to find a course of treatment that will improve the horse's condition. If no improvement can be expected, then retire or retrain to a less demanding career. | |
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 On the Countdown
Posts: 2934
Location: Texas | SG. - 2013-12-16 8:20 PM SKM - 2013-12-16 7:54 PM Lame is open to interruptation and how good of an eye you have.
I've seen plenty of horses that look dead lame to me, but the owners seem to not have a clue.
I have a horse turned out that is less lame than a lot I see, but for me riding him too much would be abuse. Others don't have a problem.
It's up to you as the owner to figure out what is right or wrong in your mind and how much you can live with if it comes to feeling guilty. i agree with riden and skm. lame is open to many subjectives.
Very true.
I had a 2 year old. Started her on ground work. First few days she was fine, work her to many she would be crippled, front leg swollen. Give her a few weeks off swelling would go down. Spent bunches of $$$ on her to find what was bothering her and try to fix it. The results I decided was not to spend more money on her. I sold her. The people that bought her decided to breed her as a 2 year old (not the greatest idea I didn't think). They recently emailed me asking me about riding her, and that she is sound doesn't limp or anything... Do I think she is sound? NOPE not after what I have learned. But if they ride her that is their decision.
If they seem lame, feel lame or anythign I will not ride them. I will get off of them and go turn them back out until I can get them to the vet. They are a investment that I have to protect to the best of my capabilities, sometimes hard to control. | |
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| For myself, even if the horse is medicated, I have a really hard time riding if I feel they are not 100%, even if they are just a bit ouchy from a recent trim/shoe or something more severe. I would put kids on older, arthritic horses, but not for hard riding. | |
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| MO gal - 2013-12-18 3:14 PM
For myself, even if the horse is medicated, I have a really hard time riding if I feel they are not 100%, even if they are just a bit ouchy from a recent trim/shoe or something more severe. I would put kids on older, arthritic horses, but not for hard riding.
Have to ask why is it okay for a child who doesn't know when to stop, will continue to ride a horse all day, will continue to run the horse into the ground, rip on the face, kick the horse in the ribs the entire time, to ride a broken down old arthritic horse that is in constant pain? | |
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 Expert
Posts: 2243
Location: Florida/Okla/Texas | cheryl makofka - 2013-12-18 4:43 PM MO gal - 2013-12-18 3:14 PM For myself, even if the horse is medicated, I have a really hard time riding if I feel they are not 100%, even if they are just a bit ouchy from a recent trim/shoe or something more severe. I would put kids on older, arthritic horses, but not for hard riding. Have to ask why is it okay for a child who doesn't know when to stop, will continue to ride a horse all day, will continue to run the horse into the ground, rip on the face, kick the horse in the ribs the entire time, to ride a broken down old arthritic horse that is in constant pain?
People who put a child on an artiritic horse and let them abuse them are uncaring, ignorant people in my book.....just no justification for that at all. No justification for anyone to use a horse like it's a bicycle....young, old, sound or unsound.....JMHO
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 The Rose of Rodeo...
Posts: 2560
Location: Where we still run to look when the siren goes by. | cheryl makofka - 2013-12-18 3:43 PM MO gal - 2013-12-18 3:14 PM For myself, even if the horse is medicated, I have a really hard time riding if I feel they are not 100%, even if they are just a bit ouchy from a recent trim/shoe or something more severe. I would put kids on older, arthritic horses, but not for hard riding. Have to ask why is it okay for a child who doesn't know when to stop, will continue to ride a horse all day, will continue to run the horse into the ground, rip on the face, kick the horse in the ribs the entire time, to ride a broken down old arthritic horse that is in constant pain?
Preeetty sure that's not what she ment... | |
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Red Bull Agressive
Posts: 5981
Location: North Dakota | I honestly don't know what to think. My mare sounds like your mare, She's had x-rays, we blocked her out up to the stifle, massage/chiro, lots of time off, and injections. She has some very mild arthritis in her stifle (which is why I had her injected) but that's not what's causing her to be lame. It's so high up we can't do x-rays and I can't afford to take her to another state and have an MRI or whatever done. We're hopeful she'll heal on her own in time. She's been off completely since July and looks pretty much the same. She does not act in pain and enjoys a good canter when I let her out of her pen. Even under saddle at first she didn't act painful, just felt like she had a flat tire. Then she started not wanting to go forward and would take a step, kind of hobble/kick with her sore leg, then stop. The cycle would go on with every step and each time she acted more distressed, going so far as to turn her head around and stare at me. If she is a lost cause, I'm going to turn her out in the pasture. She's not dead lame and can get around fine on her own.
Our other horse managed to hurt himself too. No idea how. Again, the vet couldn't find anything wrong from x-rays but it seems to be something in the lower leg. It is so mild he doesn't act in pain at all and rode around fine (at first we thought his feet were just tender from mistakenly having his shoes pulled, so my sis took him to a race and he did completely fine) but we would feel too guilty continuing to ride him.
They better heal up cause I have $10,000 of lame horses sitting in my barn. :( | |
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Red Bull Agressive
Posts: 5981
Location: North Dakota | cheryl makofka - 2013-12-18 4:43 PM MO gal - 2013-12-18 3:14 PM For myself, even if the horse is medicated, I have a really hard time riding if I feel they are not 100%, even if they are just a bit ouchy from a recent trim/shoe or something more severe. I would put kids on older, arthritic horses, but not for hard riding. Have to ask why is it okay for a child who doesn't know when to stop, will continue to ride a horse all day, will continue to run the horse into the ground, rip on the face, kick the horse in the ribs the entire time, to ride a broken down old arthritic horse that is in constant pain?
Perhaps I'm wrong, but I understood it as a young kid that maybe can walk around the arena by themselves or gets led around. | |
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Meanest Teacher!!!
Posts: 8555
Location: sunny california | I have seen parents use old arthritic horses for their kids in a very good way. We have some local playdays and they take good care of them. the little kids walk/trot the pattern to get a ribbon. then they get loved on. they do not run the horse in the ground. The parents are aware of the horses limitations. The horses do not show any signs of distress and enjoy the attention | |
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 Keep those crap slapping tails away!
Posts: 8871
Location: Around here somewhere... | TurnLane - 2013-12-18 8:50 AM SC Wrangler - 2013-12-17 9:16 AM I don't believe the answer will ever be black and white. There is no 100% wrong or right because every horse and owner is an individual and each situation is unique. It is a judgement call hence there can be 9999999999999999999 gazillion answers. I agree and will add to the gazillion opinions. I think it is likely ok to me. But it is your call. I know a few on here ride lame horses because they refuse to use injections or meds- which I find more so morally wrong-jmo.
Lots of tangents and mine is a perfect time to use your mare as an example of why MRI's are so great although not affordable for most. That is why I have insurance. And it has saved me from injecting secondary issues, saved me from scrapping a good horse and saved me from putting more time and money or years of ownership in to a horse that would NEVER be sound.
An MRI is worth more monetarily than my mare is. NO WAY any insurance co would pay for it. | |
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Keep those crap slapping tails away!
Posts: 8871
Location: Around here somewhere... | TACKyPaints - 2013-12-17 9:26 PM CrossCreek - 2013-12-17 10:10 PM Blaundee - 2013-12-16 7:31 PM Or, what about a horse who has to have injections in his joints in order to run barrels? Is that in your opinion ethical? Are you serious?? I can't believe any barrel racer of any serious nature would even ASK that question! When joints are injected, pain is relieved. I don't have any problem running a pain-free horse. God put horses here for us to use and enjoy. Are you with PETA or something? There is nothing unethical about riding a horse that's been injected. The AQHA doesn't have an issue with it, why on earth do YOU?
ETA: I am a serious barrel racer who did question injections until I was properly educated on them. I had never had a horse that needed injections therefore I never knew much about them. Not everybody understands how injections work or when they should be used. After educating myself on injections by doing my own research, as well as speaking to my vet to make sure I had a proper understanding, I decided that I am PRO injections. However, I do believe they should be used wisely, for good reason, and only if it will BENEFIT the horse and not mask a more serious issue.
Nope, I don't personally have an issue with it, and if CrossCreek had bothered to pay attention, I HAVE used injections on a horse! DUH! I said it in the FIRST post RFLOL!!! | |
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Keep those crap slapping tails away!
Posts: 8871
Location: Around here somewhere... | jaydenw - 2013-12-17 8:10 PM Sorry, don't want to steal your thread, but I haven't seen a whole lot of answers about what do you do with a mildly lame horse? I have one like that (he has arthritis in his fetlock and hocks) I feel guilty leaving them out in the pasture when he loves to work, but it's too hard on him to be my tough competitive barrel or pole horse. So what do you do with them???
Yes, I'd like to know what people would do with a lame horse when they do not feel that riding is ethical- in particular, I'm curious what they'd do with a gelding. (AGAIN, I am NOT asking for advice, I'm just wanting people to throw out their ideas, opinions, examples, etc. I only own one lame horse and am NOT going to be putting more money into it. Period.)
Myself, I won't sell/give away a lame horse without telling the prospective owner everything I know about the lameness. I take my horses to the vet for any and all lamenesses, I am "over-reactive" when it comes to lameness and colic- first little sign warrants a vet trip. I have NO ISSUE riding a horse who can be made as comfortable as reasonably possible and okayed by a vet to be ridden (and this to me would OBVIOUSLY mean that it has been thoroughly examined by a vet- that's just a no-brainer IMO, ALL lame horses should go to the vet PERIOD).
In the case of my mare, since we do NOT know what the actual issue is, I will not ride her because we CAN NOT treat the issue, and I'll keep her because she is a pet that I've had since she was born- if she were not so special to me, I would probably just put her down, because she is so slightly lame that if I were to give her away, she WOULD end up being ridden. If she remains lame to the same degree in a few years, I might use her to lead little bitty kids, and maybe to let kids under 5 ride her by themselves a little bit- she is extremely calm & level headed, and loves children, it would hardly be any more work than being out to pasture. (BTW- we & the vet think that it was probably caused by her idiotic pawing, her one and only vice. She is a horrid pawer, and only pawed with that foot. We suspect her rotten pawing caused something happened inside that we can not see on the xrays. Yet another reason NOT to let your horses paw.) However, in the case of the 2 different geldings I listed, I WOULD ride them, because every reasonable measure had been taken to make them comfortable & useful, and the only other option was to put them down because they were too expensive to feed and NOT ride them- that is also what the vets who treated them recommended, too. However, if they had been horses I was in love with, I might feel about it like I do about my mare, & end up keeping a gelding until he died because I loved him- who knows. So far I don't keep geldings anyway, for some reason I always sell them- I love my mares :) lol
As for the second mare (crooked legged) that I used as an example, I would boot her up & ride her, and NEVER breed her-perhaps even spay her to make sure she could never reproduce if she were to be sold/given away.
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Expert
Posts: 1561
Location: North of where I want to be | I have not read the entire thread. I am simply stating my opinion on riding a alame horse. The answer to this is not just black or white. It depends on the lameness issue(ie the cause) the degree, and the nature of the riding.
I bought a mare that when I bought her had a recently and incorrectly treated ruptured tendon. It was bad enough that at first her foot literally just slapped the ground with each step. I got her home & had my vet take a good look at her. She said she would never compete, but with the proper therapies and time she would be suited for lessons & trails.....maybe.
A full year later, miles of hand walking & eventual ponying, accuscope therapy, hosing, poultices and exercising slowly and she was tearing it up in the field. I had the vet re- evaluate her and he said...ride her. I asked about the ethics of it and she put it this way "Professional atheletes do not stop playing, they change the way they play. Yes some retire and quit altogether....they get fat, and it takes its toll. Adjust the way you use the animal and you will maintain a healthy athelete of a different level. Listen to her, she will let you know what she can & cannot handle" We ride my mare. She gives lessons to beginners, does some moderate trail riding and depending on the footing the occassional team penning. She tells us what she can handle & she is a much happier horse when she has a purpose & not just standing in the field. | |
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Miss Southern Sunshine
Posts: 7427
Location: South Central Florida | I don't think there is an answer that will satisify everyone. Years ago, we had a local girl who's 6 year old son ran a horse that was mildly lame. He was 26, and loved that little boy to death. He would hollar and stomp if they left with out him, he would follow the little boy in the pasture. He had an obivious limp when he ran, but personally, it was not a problem for me. They ran him 2 years, then he moved up to something faster, but the old man used to still trail ride and ride in the pasture.
They gave him bute or banamine, Or both for all I know...but in my opinion the horse was happy, the kid was happy, the spectators were happy.
Did not read the whole thread, so maybe this is not what your talking about, but too many different cases to know for sure.
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