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 Undercover Amish Mafia Member
Posts: 9992
    
Location: Kansas | I think it would depend on the horse itself, and the rider.
Some are just slugs when it comes to running, but others have that "hidden" potential. I'm not the best jockey and I'll admit that, ever since I had my daughter I just can't get back into the groove of running my mare. I'll clock up with rodeo horses, and in 2D at local shows....but if you stick someone smaller and more agressive on my mare....she will clock in the 1D.
I've ridden horses that no matter who or what you stick on them, they just won't clock good. So I would say it varies on the horse |
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  Northern Chocolate Queen
Posts: 16576
Location: ND | Itsme - 2014-01-08 1:56 PM Murphy - 2014-01-08 2:51 PM Itsme - 2014-01-08 3:45 PM OregonBR - 2014-01-08 2:32 PM No. I've trained enough random bloodline quarter horses to know some have "it" and many do not. Now I concentrate only on bloodlines that have a history of being better than average. If it were true that any horse could be a 1D horse, why would anyone buy an expensive prospect and send it to a big name trainer. Just buy a random horse and send it to them. The fact is, the best trainers recognise how much easier their job is when the horse has natural aptitude for barrels. Just like reining trainers, cutting trainers and certainly race horse trainers. That's why the best prospects demand good prices. That doesn't mean 100% of them will make the cut either. But 50% is better than 10% any day.  While I do agree with a lot of what youre saying people buy big names because of the propaganda machine. Look at FG they push and push that line but the percentage of the offspring making it is SMALL. So is that percentage low because of the training and jockey or breeding? Interesting how this kinda comes full circle... I do agree some lines have better potential than the average cow bred horse. I just believe the average horse has more potential than most people think and a lot of a horses abilities shine through with good training and the correct jockey.
It really goes both ways. There are a lot of horses out there that because of who's hands they end up in are either ruined or never reach their full potential. But there's just as many horses that are given every opportunity in the best hands to be great and they amount to nothing. |
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Gettin Jiggy Wit It
Posts: 2734
| I agree with you... I believe MOST not ALL but MOST sound horses that are "truely" broke (good foundation) and have a good jockey can be at least 2d. I dont mean to sound bad and I normally wouldnt say this in real life (I am to nice and dont normally offer my opinions) but I think a lot of people are close minded and have the thought that their way is the best and sell horses because they "dont" work out... when they really dont see that they need to work on themselves more then the horse... I think that some riders inhibit a horses true potential.. causing a horse that would be 1D to be 3 or 4D.. primarily because the horse doesnt have the proper training and the owner isnt competent enough to fix it... From that I also think there are more 1d horses out there then given credit and that if they were in the right hands (that the other 1d horses were in) that they would be in the 1d... think about it... where a horse ends up is all luck... no different then the families we are born into.... There is a lot of unfounded athletes out there just because of the hands they fall into....
EDITED bec of my terrible spelling lol
Edited by WetSaddleBlankets 2014-01-08 3:27 PM
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Expert
Posts: 1561
| WetSaddleBlankets - 2014-01-08 3:18 PM
I agree with you... I believe MOST not ALL but MOST sound horses that are "truely" broke (good foundation) and have a good jockey can be at least 2d. I dont mean to sound bad and I normally wouldnt say this in real life (I am to nice and dont normally offer my opinions) but I think a lot of people are close minded and have the thought that their way is the best and sell horses because they "dont" work out... when they really dont see that they need to work on themselves more then the horse... I think that the some riders inhibit a horses true potential.. causing a horse that would be 1D to be 3 or 4D.. primarily because the horse doesnt have the propler training and the owner isnt competent enough to fix it... From that I also think there are more 1d horses out there then given credit and that if they weer in the right hands (that the other 1d horses were in) that they would be in the 1d... think about it... where a horse ends up is al luck.. no different then the families we are born into.... There is a lot of unfounded athletes out there then given credit to....
And you like the Packers!  |
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Expert
Posts: 1561
| SaraJean - 2014-01-08 3:17 PM
Itsme - 2014-01-08 1:56 PM Murphy - 2014-01-08 2:51 PM Itsme - 2014-01-08 3:45 PM OregonBR - 2014-01-08 2:32 PM No. I've trained enough random bloodline quarter horses to know some have "it" and many do not. Now I concentrate only on bloodlines that have a history of being better than average.  If it were true that any horse could be a 1D horse, why would anyone buy an expensive prospect and send it to a big name trainer. Just buy a random horse and send it to them. The fact is, the best trainers recognise how much easier their job is when the horse has natural aptitude for barrels. Just like reining trainers, cutting trainers and certainly race horse trainers. That's why the best prospects demand good prices. That doesn't mean 100% of them will make the cut either. But 50% is better than 10% any day. While I do agree with a lot of what youre saying people buy big names because of the propaganda machine. Look at FG they push and push that line but the percentage of the offspring making it is SMALL. So is that percentage low because of the training and jockey or breeding? Interesting how this kinda comes full circle... I do agree some lines have better potential than the average cow bred horse. I just believe the average horse has more potential than most people think and a lot of a horses abilities shine through with good training and the correct jockey.
Cant argue with that. |
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Gettin Jiggy Wit It
Posts: 2734
| Itsme - 2014-01-08 3:21 PM WetSaddleBlankets - 2014-01-08 3:18 PM I agree with you... I believe MOST not ALL but MOST sound horses that are "truely" broke (good foundation) and have a good jockey can be at least 2d. I dont mean to sound bad and I normally wouldnt say this in real life (I am to nice and dont normally offer my opinions) but I think a lot of people are close minded and have the thought that their way is the best and sell horses because they "dont" work out... when they really dont see that they need to work on themselves more then the horse... I think that the some riders inhibit a horses true potential.. causing a horse that would be 1D to be 3 or 4D.. primarily because the horse doesnt have the propler training and the owner isnt competent enough to fix it... From that I also think there are more 1d horses out there then given credit and that if they weer in the right hands (that the other 1d horses were in) that they would be in the 1d... think about it... where a horse ends up is al luck.. no different then the families we are born into.... There is a lot of unfounded athletes out there then given credit to.... And you like the Packers!
haha... yes, even when they lose I still "LOVE" the Packers. |
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 Keeper of the King Snake
Posts: 7622
Location: Dubach, LA | Maybe we should discuss whether we believe that most all horses show at their full potential. |
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 Expert
Posts: 2258
| CanCan - 2014-01-08 6:32 PM
 Maybe we should discuss whether we believe that most all horses show at their full potential.Â
There you go I think a lot of horses just don't work as hard as others. I have a mare that my daughter rides who is a super athlete and runs a gorgeous pattern but if you can get an 18.5 out of her you have work your butt off. She is happy to run 19 and 20's if you just want to go through the pattern. She will however run 21 poles and seems to love them. |
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 Always Off Topic
Posts: 6382
Location: ND | Itsme - 2014-01-08 12:13 PM Am I the only one who truly believes most horses with proper training and a competent jockey have the potential to be 2D? Im talking about sound, sane horses in their prime, not injured horses or horses that are 22 yo. Ive seen a horse that was pulled off a dude ranch and he ran a tenth off an arena record and Ive seen plenty of ranch horses trained and running hard 1D-2D times. Whats your thoughts on this?
Initially i thought yes, but then i though harder about the actual question and i'm not sure many percherons, clydesdales, belgians, fjord horses, etc fit that statement..... i don't think our mini spotsie would either although my daughter can really ride him and he is **** fast when you are trying to chase him back in.....wore out my horse so i went and got the ranger and gave him a real lesson...but not til he was really worn out.... |
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Always Off Topic
Posts: 6382
Location: ND | CanCan - 2014-01-08 6:32 PM Maybe we should discuss whether we believe that most all horses show at their full potential.
or that most riders can take a horse to their full potential....which is probably more of an issue.... |
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 Champ
Posts: 19623
Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm | Itsme - 2014-01-08 12:45 PM OregonBR - 2014-01-08 2:32 PM No. I've trained enough random bloodline quarter horses to know some have "it" and many do not. Now I concentrate only on bloodlines that have a history of being better than average. If it were true that any horse could be a 1D horse, why would anyone buy an expensive prospect and send it to a big name trainer. Just buy a random horse and send it to them. The fact is, the best trainers recognise how much easier their job is when the horse has natural aptitude for barrels. Just like reining trainers, cutting trainers and certainly race horse trainers. That's why the best prospects demand good prices. That doesn't mean 100% of them will make the cut either. But 50% is better than 10% any day. While I do agree with a lot of what youre saying people buy big names because of the propaganda machine. Look at FG they push and push that line but the percentage of the offspring making it is SMALL. So is that percentage low because of the training and jockey or breeding? Interesting how this kinda comes full circle...
I completely disagree.  How many horses have you trained? What were they bred like? Have you ever had an FG bred horse? Like them or not. Think they are over done or not, they perform. Once you've ridden a horse that feels like a Mercedes....no way you're going to settle for a Ugo. There's no barrel racing results anywhere that don't have an FG/FWF/several other name brands, in there.
Take a look at the pro people. They don't give a rat's patoot what a horse is bred like if they can win with it. Guess what they're riding. FWF, FG, Jet Of Honor, out west we have a TON of Biankus bred horses. All these are mixed together and with racebred horses. People will ride what can win, even if it's a pintaloosaminiwalkamule. |
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Expert
Posts: 1561
| OregonBR - 2014-01-08 8:28 PM Itsme - 2014-01-08 12:45 PM OregonBR - 2014-01-08 2:32 PM No. I've trained enough random bloodline quarter horses to know some have "it" and many do not. Now I concentrate only on bloodlines that have a history of being better than average. If it were true that any horse could be a 1D horse, why would anyone buy an expensive prospect and send it to a big name trainer. Just buy a random horse and send it to them. The fact is, the best trainers recognise how much easier their job is when the horse has natural aptitude for barrels. Just like reining trainers, cutting trainers and certainly race horse trainers. That's why the best prospects demand good prices. That doesn't mean 100% of them will make the cut either. But 50% is better than 10% any day. While I do agree with a lot of what youre saying people buy big names because of the propaganda machine. Look at FG they push and push that line but the percentage of the offspring making it is SMALL. So is that percentage low because of the training and jockey or breeding? Interesting how this kinda comes full circle...
Im in no way shape or form a trainer and I feel that gives me an unbised opinion from what I see at races and jackpots with no emotional feelings eitherway.
Yup, they have flooded the system with them. And remember were talking 2D not winning the world. |
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 Queen Boobie 2
Posts: 7521
| Â The system is also flooded with diesel pickups. Why, one might ask? Because they are the right tool for the job. Certain bloodlines are proven to replicate certain traits with consistancy. Then the people to whom these traits are desirable seek out these bloodlines creating a market that follows the laws of supply and demand. The cutters aren't buying up Storm Cats to take to the cutting pen. Breeding tells in horses, dogs and women....LOL, |
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Northern Chocolate Queen
Posts: 16576
Location: ND | OregonBR - 2014-01-08 7:28 PM Itsme - 2014-01-08 12:45 PM OregonBR - 2014-01-08 2:32 PM No. I've trained enough random bloodline quarter horses to know some have "it" and many do not. Now I concentrate only on bloodlines that have a history of being better than average. If it were true that any horse could be a 1D horse, why would anyone buy an expensive prospect and send it to a big name trainer. Just buy a random horse and send it to them. The fact is, the best trainers recognise how much easier their job is when the horse has natural aptitude for barrels. Just like reining trainers, cutting trainers and certainly race horse trainers. That's why the best prospects demand good prices. That doesn't mean 100% of them will make the cut either. But 50% is better than 10% any day. While I do agree with a lot of what youre saying people buy big names because of the propaganda machine. Look at FG they push and push that line but the percentage of the offspring making it is SMALL. So is that percentage low because of the training and jockey or breeding? Interesting how this kinda comes full circle...
Take a look at the pro people. They don't give a rat's patoot what a horse is bred like if they can win with it. Guess what they're riding. FWF, FG, Jet Of Honor, out west we have a TON of Biankus bred horses. All these are mixed together and with racebred horses. People will ride what can win, even if it's a pintaloosaminiwalkamule.
Like you said once you've ridden one......I used to be one that believed that the bloodlines didn't matter that much. I was WRONG! I've had a lot of success riding horses of various pedigrees and enjoyed every minute of it. I didn't think it could get any better & figured there was no reason to ride the "name brand" horses. Then I rode a couple & sure got my eyes opened fast. The natural ability that they have is incredible...... |
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 Queen Bee Cat Owner
Posts: 3629
Location: Way up North | It's an interesting arguement but, and I am not sure if this has been brought up yet, it seems a bit like claiming all horses should be capable of running a 90 speed index. Just not going to happen. |
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 You get what you give
Posts: 13030
Location: Texas | Okay so saying the training and jockey are competent- across the board- and you pick a bunch of random average horses in their prime and put them through the ringer, do I believe most would be 2D caliber? No.
There are way too many factors that make a horse what it is.
Some people are REALLY good at picking prospects and are equally good at training them, so they may make it look like any horse they pick up can become nice. However, what they are doing is weeding through all the ones that they chose not to buy, or not to train, so the ones that you end up seeing compete are the ones that made their cut.
My other thought is, 2D where? arena record where? Any arena can have an arena record. That is really relative to who is putting on the race, how many people are entering the race, and who is entering the race. people also can have their bubbles of comfort of where they go. you might be the big fish in a small pond, and never leave the pond to see how big the fish are in the ocean. It's pretty well understood that the difficulty of getting int he 2D can change from race to race depending on the added money and number of entries.
Edited by casualdust07 2014-01-08 9:31 PM
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Expert
Posts: 1561
| casualdust07 - 2014-01-08 9:26 PM Okay so saying the training and jockey are competent- across the board- and you pick a bunch of random average horses in their prime and put them through the ringer, do I believe most would be 2D caliber? No. There are way too many factors that make a horse what it is. Some people are REALLY good at picking prospects and are equally good at training them, so they may make it look like any horse they pick up can become nice. However, what they are doing is weeding through all the ones that they chose not to buy, or not to train, so the ones that you end up seeing compete are the ones that made their cut. My other thought is, 2D where? arena record where? Any arena can have an arena record. That is really relative to who is putting on the race, how many people are entering the race, and who is entering the race. people also can have their bubbles of comfort of where they go. you might be the big fish in a small pond, and never leave the pond to see how big the fish are in the ocean. It's pretty well understood that the difficulty of getting int he 2D can change from race to race depending on the added money and number of entries.
The dude ranch horse I mentioned in my original post was running against 1 2013 NFR horse thats LOVED on here and a couple futurity winning horses too. We know who is fast and who isnt. |
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 Veteran
Posts: 148
| I have a great example of one with all the potential in the world that just wasn't that great. Had one that we raised that had a half brother and full sister that were outstanding in the arena and on the ranch this colt was built correct, could fly and extremely athletic. He was started right broke to death and would work the prettiest set of barrels you've ever seen only problem he had no heart and was consistently 3D. Every once in awhile the mood would hit him and he could go in and win a barrelrace with 200 plus entries by leaps and bounds he just didn't care to do it very often. I ended up selling him to a lady that wanted to go to local jackpots and trail ride she loves him and he is perfect for her but he just wasn't ever going to be what he should've been for me. |
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My mind still works
Posts: 8912
| I read the first page only, but you said Most,which leads people to think....ummm, Most....I disagree because the 3D is the hardest to win because MOST horses run in it...LOL |
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Expert
Posts: 1561
| SaraJean - 2014-01-08 8:59 PM
OregonBR - 2014-01-08 7:28 PM Itsme - 2014-01-08 12:45 PM OregonBR - 2014-01-08 2:32 PM No. I've trained enough random bloodline quarter horses to know some have "it" and many do not. Now I concentrate only on bloodlines that have a history of being better than average.  If it were true that any horse could be a 1D horse, why would anyone buy an expensive prospect and send it to a big name trainer. Just buy a random horse and send it to them. The fact is, the best trainers recognise how much easier their job is when the horse has natural aptitude for barrels. Just like reining trainers, cutting trainers and certainly race horse trainers. That's why the best prospects demand good prices. That doesn't mean 100% of them will make the cut either. But 50% is better than 10% any day. While I do agree with a lot of what youre saying people buy big names because of the propaganda machine. Look at FG they push and push that line but the percentage of the offspring making it is SMALL. So is that percentage low because of the training and jockey or breeding? Interesting how this kinda comes full circle...
Take a look at the pro people. They don't give a rat's patoot what a horse is bred like if they can win with it. Guess what they're riding. FWF, FG, Jet Of Honor, out west we have a TON of Biankus bred horses. All these are mixed together and with racebred horses. People will ride what can win, even if it's a pintaloosaminiwalkamule.
My daughter jumped on a FG horse a few weeks ago that she has never ridden and clocked 1 place out of the 2D money, but that horse is a true 1D horse that has won some pretty big events. Like I said were not talking about winning 1D were talking about placing in the 2D. |
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