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  Queen Boobie 2
Posts: 7521
  
| rodeowithjoker - 2014-04-21 6:56 PM dianeguinn - 2014-04-21 5:28 PM He's still sore. On the first barrel, he's striding really short with his back feet....more up and down instead of forward....almost stabbing them...and then runs across the pen with both back feet together instead of using them separately to push...in fact, he's not wanting to use his back end much at all...I'd guess now maybe hocks need injected or stifles blistered or maybe both. And maybe get a new vet.  
I am just going to add this.
Every single time I have thought my horse was sore, but chose to dink around with local vets instead of biting the bullet and driving the 200+ miles to a good vet, I have wasted hundreds of dollars and months of time when my horse could have been healing, instead of still trying the myriad of guesses on why they were sore. | |
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 Damn Yankee
Posts: 12390
 
Location: Somewhere between raising hell and Amazing Grace | OP where are you located? Oak Ridge in OK did an amazing job diagnosing two difficult horses......and I know there are several other vets in OK and surrounding areas just as good if not better. | |
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Hungarian Midget Woman
Location: Midwest | classicpotatochip - 2014-04-22 8:48 AM barrelracr131 - 2014-04-22 8:00 AM I would be taking him to a university or hospital where they have the ability to utilize diagnostic imaging to confirm what is at the root of the soreness from a pathology standpoint.
I don't think going back to your local vet would be prudent at this point in time ^^^^^This. I'd be on my way to Oklahoma or College Station to A&M. Sometimes, one or two vets just won't cut it. I want the whole team that TEACHES the vets. I've had three now that I've dumped out at A&M and said, "Keep them until you figure it out." Sometimes it's six hours, one time it was three days, but I had an answer and a treatment plan, either way, they found the problem, and each time it had been totally overlooked locally. Not every teaching facility is equal, either. My big brown gelding was one that CSU totally bombed, and A&M nailed the problem in two hours. I plan on keeping this habit. $600 in diesel and $1500 in vet bills is often a lot cheaper then hauling and trying to henpeck a sore horse one injection at a time. That's my thought, having been here and done that.
ETA: The clinic I went to was 3 hours of driving.. the other one is 4 I believe. It was worth it though, despite the long day. But I feel your pain on the option issue
Edited by barrelracr131 2014-04-22 9:17 AM
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 Fact Checker
Posts: 16575
Location: Displaced Iowegian | rodeowithjoker - 2014-04-21 10:40 PM . Pretty sure we went to the vet after each of those - he has a file at the nearest vet clinic that probably weighs 50 pounds with all the times we've been there in the last 3 years - but he really has not been himself since the last one.
^^^ THIS is what jumped out at me....I would get a NEW vet........and stay completely off of him until he is 100% sound....that would mean NO western pleasure either! | |
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 There Could Be Aliens Out There
Posts: 1393
Location: North Central Kansas | Oklahoma is probably closer, but Dr. Brunk in Grand Island, NE is an excellent lameness vet. | |
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| rodeowithjoker - 2014-04-22 8:25 AM
Joker is my old reliable but I can't put a lot of runs on him because he's 21 now. He just can't handle an intense schedule and it seems like 3 runs in a weekend is too much for him. I have until next Monday to draw Chance out of state NBHA if I don't think Streak will be ready so at least there's that "silver lining."
Chance hasn't run hardly at all this year - 8 runs total. When I'm being told by more than one vet that he's OK to run, I don't feel like I've been stupid for running a few times with what I knew at the time. Now it looks like I was stupid to even try and run him at all this year or last. But hindsight is always 20/20.
I was told by the vet who did Chance's injections that 12 days after injections was about perfect timing to run him, otherwise I wouldn't have taken him to Lincoln at all. Heck the chiropractor/vet who initially found the SI soreness said I could run him four days later. But I didn't. I subbed Joker in at that weekend's races and gave Chance complete rest until 5 days after his SI injections. He had no forced exercise between March 15th and April 6th. NONE. I didn't ride him or even pony him with the others.
If you all thought he was sore last summer, why the heck was that never mentioned when I posted videos from August trying to figure out why we weren't placing at rodeos? Why is everyone attacking me now when they had the opportunity to mention all the things they think have been wrong for a year a long time ago? I guess I'm just frustrated by the whole situation. I don't want to run a sore horse but I'm not a lameness expert so I can't tell when the lameness isn't obvious just riding at home or by watching a video of him running. Believe me, I watch his videos 700 times but I apparently just don't have the eye for stuff like others do.
It sucks when our own horses are sore, and it is very difficult for us to see the problems with our own horses, as we are looking at everything horse and rider.
As for vets, that also sucks as I have taken the shorter route and it never paid off. The vet I usually use is 4 hours one way. I had a horse that was sound but had swelling in his leg, local vet cleared him said soft tissue, when in actuality it was a fractured cannon bone his X-ray never picked it up. I have learned to go with my gut, and sent the X-rays to my regular vet who was able to tell something was wrong.
Point to my story, go with your gut, you know your horse better then anyone else, if you think he is sore, he is.
I would continue riding the horse as 2 vets have cleared him so it may be subtle, with a little rest the inflammation may go down and he may not flex sore.
Also get a copy of the file to take with you, once the vet finds his diagnosis, then pull the file out and make the vet go through it to make sure nothing else is missed.
Take videos with you of the runs before the si joint injections and the most current one, this way the vet can observe what your horse is doing during a run.
Insist on X-ray and ultrasound where pertinent, do not let the vet diagnose without the proper technology to back it up. | |
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 Pork Fat is my Favorite
Posts: 3791
Location: The Oklahoma plains. | missroselee - 2014-04-22 8:51 AM TurnLane - 2014-04-22 9:48 AM I wish we could find a support group that is kind and helpful rather than all knowing and rude----- I wonder where that place would be? 
If I didn't give a hoot, I wouldn't bother posting.
I think you and I have a few things in common. I guess I just get confused by your tone of caring vs being agressive as you call it.
It helps me see the error of my tone and how I get mistaken for rude as well. It is not how I mean or want to be remembered. 
Anyhow- I hope you get your horse some help. Its like a puzzle and sometimes the least fun part of the sport.
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| rodeowithjoker - 2014-04-21 10:22 PM
casualdust07 - 2014-04-21 10:13 PM rodeowithjoker - 2014-04-21 10:05 PM missroselee - 2014-04-21 9:49 PM I think he looks terrible. Sorry but you wanted honesty. He is short stride and he never drops his head and looks comfortable. Just looks stressed and stiff. I haven't kept up with your posts/threads so I don't know all the story or what you have and haven't done with him. But when you say he is sore on a front foot, per the pads etc, have you actually had his front feet looked at? Xrayed? We thought for the longest time my mare was sore in behind. Turned out to all stem from a front foot issue. Oh the front feet are thoroughly examined every time he goes to the vet clinic nearest me. We've x-rayed many times and the only thing we can really determine is that his feet aren't very big and I think maybe his pasterns are kinda straight so the feet take a real pounding when he runs. Therefore he lives in magnetic bell boots, wears Soft Rides anytime he's in the trailer or tied to it at a jackpot or rodeo, and I avoid gravel & pavement like the plague.
Also, last November, we had his navicular bursa injected in both front feet to try and relieve the constant pain. Looking back, that was probably a band aid for a problem that started elsewhere, but it probably didn't hurt since the feet have been such a mess.
This is probably part of the problem in finding what hurts him - but he never ever refuses to go in the gate and he acts depressed if I leave without him. He'll run the fence for 20 minutes while I load other horses, nickering and having a fit. Since he's not buddy sour at all, I can only assume he wants to go. straight pasterns and small feet would make me think he possibly has his own issues on the front end and it's not just from compensation. Are you 100% the pain in his front right is from the foot in origin? What blocks does your vet do? Have you ever radiographed farther up on his front leg? if a PD blocks out the pain in his front foot that places it somewhere in the heel or sole of the foot, but not the toe. Abaxial knocks out everything from the pastern down Low 4 point gets the fetlock, pastern, and foot High 4 point starts getting your SDFT, DDFT, Suspensory starting mostly down the cannon bone. I've been told in the past one of mine was compensating and was sore in the hind end… She actually had a torn oblique distal sesamoidean ligament on her front end, and her hind end was not the issue.. the hocks were secondary. Have you ever had his hocks or stifles looked at?
March 6, we blocked all along that front leg and couldn't isolate the pain anywhere. Started low to see if it was in the foot, then worked up and did a couple more blocks. The second block was somewhere around the ankle and it got a slight improvement but didn't have him completely sound trotting little circles on gravel.
I've asked about hocks & stifles many times because that's what everyone on here says anytime a barrel horse isn't working, but we can't get any response to flexion tests and when there is a response in the front end, we wind up trying to fix the front feet so we can hopefully see if there's a problem elsewhere. Which of course we can never find and he never stops trying to work. If he would just stop mid-run when the pain hit, maybe we could figure out what actually hurt and fix it!
I'm going to try and get an appointment for a complete lameness exam and whatever else is necessary at a different vet next Wednesday (next day I will have any time) so hopefully we can get to the bottom of it and maybe have him back before the end of the year. I swear I'm done pre-entering things on him. Every time I do this year, we find more stuff that needs fixed.
Can you post pictures of his front feet, as it sounds like he may have contracted heels | |
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 Am I really the Weirdo?
Posts: 11181
Location: Kansas | cheryl makofka - 2014-04-22 9:41 AM rodeowithjoker - 2014-04-22 8:25 AM Joker is my old reliable but I can't put a lot of runs on him because he's 21 now. He just can't handle an intense schedule and it seems like 3 runs in a weekend is too much for him. I have until next Monday to draw Chance out of state NBHA if I don't think Streak will be ready so at least there's that "silver lining."
Chance hasn't run hardly at all this year - 8 runs total. When I'm being told by more than one vet that he's OK to run, I don't feel like I've been stupid for running a few times with what I knew at the time. Now it looks like I was stupid to even try and run him at all this year or last. But hindsight is always 20/20.
I was told by the vet who did Chance's injections that 12 days after injections was about perfect timing to run him, otherwise I wouldn't have taken him to Lincoln at all. Heck the chiropractor/vet who initially found the SI soreness said I could run him four days later. But I didn't. I subbed Joker in at that weekend's races and gave Chance complete rest until 5 days after his SI injections. He had no forced exercise between March 15th and April 6th. NONE. I didn't ride him or even pony him with the others.
If you all thought he was sore last summer, why the heck was that never mentioned when I posted videos from August trying to figure out why we weren't placing at rodeos? Why is everyone attacking me now when they had the opportunity to mention all the things they think have been wrong for a year a long time ago? I guess I'm just frustrated by the whole situation. I don't want to run a sore horse but I'm not a lameness expert so I can't tell when the lameness isn't obvious just riding at home or by watching a video of him running. Believe me, I watch his videos 700 times but I apparently just don't have the eye for stuff like others do. It sucks when our own horses are sore, and it is very difficult for us to see the problems with our own horses, as we are looking at everything horse and rider. As for vets, that also sucks as I have taken the shorter route and it never paid off. The vet I usually use is 4 hours one way. I had a horse that was sound but had swelling in his leg, local vet cleared him said soft tissue, when in actuality it was a fractured cannon bone his X-ray never picked it up. I have learned to go with my gut, and sent the X-rays to my regular vet who was able to tell something was wrong. Point to my story, go with your gut, you know your horse better then anyone else, if you think he is sore, he is. I would continue riding the horse as 2 vets have cleared him so it may be subtle, with a little rest the inflammation may go down and he may not flex sore. Also get a copy of the file to take with you, once the vet finds his diagnosis, then pull the file out and make the vet go through it to make sure nothing else is missed. Take videos with you of the runs before the si joint injections and the most current one, this way the vet can observe what your horse is doing during a run. Insist on X-ray and ultrasound where pertinent, do not let the vet diagnose without the proper technology to back it up.
The frustrating part is that I can't tell that he's sore by riding him, stretching, flexing, or watching him move at home.This is the first true 1D horse I've had so I haven't had the soreness issues that come with them until recently. I just don't have the experience to spot every little thing, especially since Chance is so tough and keeps working no matter what. If Joker hurts, he quits going in - which means its easy to tell when he's sore.
My local vet and I watched a bunch of his videos, including in slow motion, from as far back as 2012 trying to spot a difference. We can see a difference from the March 15th run to the April 11th one, which means the SI injections helped.
If I can get an appointment, I'm planning to go back to the vet who did the SI injections next week and get a full lameness exam from him. He's done great things with my boyfriend's horses so hopefully he can get to the bottom of Chance too.
I'm sorry if my last post was short but I don't remember anyone even suggesting that Chance might be sore last year and so then when people act like I've known for a year that there was a problem, I get upset.
I'm in Southeast Kansas so its a lengthy drive to anywhere with a high tech lameness vet. I showed Diane his April 11th video and she said he still looked sore, so I figured it would be easy for the local vet to spot, and its so much easier & chepaer to go 40 miles than 120 miles. I guess I thought if I could get whatever diagnosed locally, I'd save money and time, which are both in short supply around here. I mean, why pay $80 for a lameness exam and $100 in fuel if I can get the same results with a $48 lameness exam and $40 in fuel. Made sense to me. | |
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 Lady Di
Posts: 21556
Location: Oklahoma | Melanie, I don't know how far it is to Pryor from where you live, but Dr. Propp has a Lameness Locator and he found a problem with my horse that no one else did by using it. He took about 4 hours with me and my friend and was spot on with both horses....he then told us what we needed to do to fix it and said to go back to our regular vets if we wanted. I was very impressed with him and that might be the way to go with Chance. I know TurnLane has used him, as well, and was well pleased. At least that would show you ALL the exact places he's hurting instead of having to guess. It wasn't terribly expensive, either. It cost me around $250. I was shocked that 4 hours of his time was that cheap. :) You might try that next, and that way you could be sure you're not missing anything. He's in NE OK, so he might not be terribly far from you. Just my suggestion.
Edited by dianeguinn 2014-04-22 11:35 AM
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 Coyote Country Queen
Posts: 5666
| The difference between a local vet and a lameness vet is that the lameness vet sees horses with lameness issues all day every day. A local vet only gets the occasional lameness. They just don't have the experience. I've found a local vet the I really like, but for my lameness I still haul over 5 hours one way. Getting ready to head that way again next week. My gelding is clocking better than ever and working great, but I can feel him just a little off at a trot. Most people would never even see/feel it, but I've ridden enough with lameness issues that I've become attuned to that feel. It might seem logical to start out with a local vet to save money, but you really are money ahead to just go to someone who has more experience so that you get a proper diagnosis.
As far as your horse's soreness, feel for changes in his movement. Personally, I feel like it's easier to feel at a trot, unless it's very pronounced and then you can feel it at a walk. There should be a rhythm to the movement. My current gelding is like my retired gelding, they won't quit even if they are in pain. In this case, you've got to protect them because they won't protect themselves. When my retired gelding was finally diagnosed with an MRI, the vets were amazed at the amount of damage because he was not showing that much pain and he was still clocking on the pattern.
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Am I really the Weirdo?
Posts: 11181
Location: Kansas | dianeguinn - 2014-04-22 11:33 AM Melanie, I don't know how far it is to Pryor from where you live, but Dr. Propp has a Lameness Locator and he found a problem with my horse that no one else did by using it. He took about 4 hours with me and my friend and was spot on with both horses....he then told us what we needed to do to fix it and said to go back to our regular vets if we wanted. I was very impressed with him and that might be the way to go with Chance. I know TurnLane has used him, as well, and was well pleased. At least that would show you ALL the exact places he's hurting instead of having to guess. It wasn't terribly expensive, either. It cost me around $250. I was shocked that 4 hours of his time was that cheap. :) You might try that next, and that way you could be sure you're not missing anything. He's in NE OK, so he might not be terribly far from you. Just my suggestion.
That would be well worth it. I'm an hour north of Independence KS so Oklahoma's not a terrible drive for me. I think Tulsa was 2.5 hours. | |
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 You get what you give
Posts: 13030
Location: Texas | It may be farther up in his leg. we've blocked all the way up the shoulder joint before and still couldn't isolate anything. finally decided it was most likely a lower neck/shoulder girdle area and the best we could do was bute and stretching. that worked actually. I wasn't going to pay for a bone scan. | |
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 Tough Patooty
Posts: 2615
Location: Sperry, OK | rodeowithjoker - 2014-04-22 11:47 AM dianeguinn - 2014-04-22 11:33 AM Melanie, I don't know how far it is to Pryor from where you live, but Dr. Propp has a Lameness Locator and he found a problem with my horse that no one else did by using it. He took about 4 hours with me and my friend and was spot on with both horses....he then told us what we needed to do to fix it and said to go back to our regular vets if we wanted. I was very impressed with him and that might be the way to go with Chance. I know TurnLane has used him, as well, and was well pleased. At least that would show you ALL the exact places he's hurting instead of having to guess. It wasn't terribly expensive, either. It cost me around $250. I was shocked that 4 hours of his time was that cheap. :) You might try that next, and that way you could be sure you're not missing anything. He's in NE OK, so he might not be terribly far from you. Just my suggestion. That would be well worth it. I'm an hour north of Independence KS so Oklahoma's not a terrible drive for me. I think Tulsa was 2.5 hours.
Dr. Propp also found a tough soft tissue issue for me with the Lameness Locator as well. For sure is something I would consider! | |
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Am I really the Weirdo?
Posts: 11181
Location: Kansas | cheryl makofka - 2014-04-22 10:03 AM rodeowithjoker - 2014-04-21 10:22 PM casualdust07 - 2014-04-21 10:13 PM rodeowithjoker - 2014-04-21 10:05 PM missroselee - 2014-04-21 9:49 PM I think he looks terrible. Sorry but you wanted honesty. He is short stride and he never drops his head and looks comfortable. Just looks stressed and stiff. I haven't kept up with your posts/threads so I don't know all the story or what you have and haven't done with him. But when you say he is sore on a front foot, per the pads etc, have you actually had his front feet looked at? Xrayed? We thought for the longest time my mare was sore in behind. Turned out to all stem from a front foot issue. Oh the front feet are thoroughly examined every time he goes to the vet clinic nearest me. We've x-rayed many times and the only thing we can really determine is that his feet aren't very big and I think maybe his pasterns are kinda straight so the feet take a real pounding when he runs. Therefore he lives in magnetic bell boots, wears Soft Rides anytime he's in the trailer or tied to it at a jackpot or rodeo, and I avoid gravel & pavement like the plague.
Also, last November, we had his navicular bursa injected in both front feet to try and relieve the constant pain. Looking back, that was probably a band aid for a problem that started elsewhere, but it probably didn't hurt since the feet have been such a mess.
This is probably part of the problem in finding what hurts him - but he never ever refuses to go in the gate and he acts depressed if I leave without him. He'll run the fence for 20 minutes while I load other horses, nickering and having a fit. Since he's not buddy sour at all, I can only assume he wants to go. straight pasterns and small feet would make me think he possibly has his own issues on the front end and it's not just from compensation. Are you 100% the pain in his front right is from the foot in origin? What blocks does your vet do? Have you ever radiographed farther up on his front leg? if a PD blocks out the pain in his front foot that places it somewhere in the heel or sole of the foot, but not the toe. Abaxial knocks out everything from the pastern down Low 4 point gets the fetlock, pastern, and foot High 4 point starts getting your SDFT, DDFT, Suspensory starting mostly down the cannon bone. I've been told in the past one of mine was compensating and was sore in the hind end… She actually had a torn oblique distal sesamoidean ligament on her front end, and her hind end was not the issue.. the hocks were secondary. Have you ever had his hocks or stifles looked at?
March 6, we blocked all along that front leg and couldn't isolate the pain anywhere. Started low to see if it was in the foot, then worked up and did a couple more blocks. The second block was somewhere around the ankle and it got a slight improvement but didn't have him completely sound trotting little circles on gravel.
I've asked about hocks & stifles many times because that's what everyone on here says anytime a barrel horse isn't working, but we can't get any response to flexion tests and when there is a response in the front end, we wind up trying to fix the front feet so we can hopefully see if there's a problem elsewhere. Which of course we can never find and he never stops trying to work. If he would just stop mid-run when the pain hit, maybe we could figure out what actually hurt and fix it!
I'm going to try and get an appointment for a complete lameness exam and whatever else is necessary at a different vet next Wednesday (next day I will have any time) so hopefully we can get to the bottom of it and maybe have him back before the end of the year. I swear I'm done pre-entering things on him. Every time I do this year, we find more stuff that needs fixed. Can you post pictures of his front feet, as it sounds like he may have contracted heels
I'm at work until after dark tonight. Tuesdays suck at this job. Plus his feet are covered in mud I'm sure. We got an inch of rain yesterday so his feet aren't the only thing covered in mud I'd bet. He is part piglet I swear. | |
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Am I really the Weirdo?
Posts: 11181
Location: Kansas | ACEINTHEHOLE - 2014-04-22 11:56 AM rodeowithjoker - 2014-04-22 11:47 AM dianeguinn - 2014-04-22 11:33 AM Melanie, I don't know how far it is to Pryor from where you live, but Dr. Propp has a Lameness Locator and he found a problem with my horse that no one else did by using it. He took about 4 hours with me and my friend and was spot on with both horses....he then told us what we needed to do to fix it and said to go back to our regular vets if we wanted. I was very impressed with him and that might be the way to go with Chance. I know TurnLane has used him, as well, and was well pleased. At least that would show you ALL the exact places he's hurting instead of having to guess. It wasn't terribly expensive, either. It cost me around $250. I was shocked that 4 hours of his time was that cheap. :) You might try that next, and that way you could be sure you're not missing anything. He's in NE OK, so he might not be terribly far from you. Just my suggestion. That would be well worth it. I'm an hour north of Independence KS so Oklahoma's not a terrible drive for me. I think Tulsa was 2.5 hours.
Ok was looking at Google Maps and it won't find a Pryor, OK, just Pryor Creek, OK, east of Tulsa. Is that the one I'm looking for? I like this lameness locator idea and Pryor Creek is only 2 hours & 40 minutes away according to google maps, which means probably more like 3 1/2 when I drive it LOL. (I am that slow vehicle that everyone else hates on the highways) And does anyone have this vet's phone number? I am hopping on here & back off while I try to bust out a 10-page newspaper in the next 2.5 hours so trying to minimize my googling. | |
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BHW's Simon Cowell
Location: The Saudia Arabia of Wind Energy, Western Oklahoma | Pryor is a large town, I can't believe it won't pull up. It is North and East of Tulsa. | |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1028
| Pryor and Pryor Creek are the same town. But, it is almost always referred to only as Pryor instead of it's "official" name Pryor Creek. | |
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 Dr. Ruth
Posts: 9891
Location: Blissfully happy Giants fan!!! | bennie1 - 2014-04-22 8:56 AM rodeowithjoker - 2014-04-21 6:56 PM dianeguinn - 2014-04-21 5:28 PM He's still sore. On the first barrel, he's striding really short with his back feet....more up and down instead of forward....almost stabbing them...and then runs across the pen with both back feet together instead of using them separately to push...in fact, he's not wanting to use his back end much at all...I'd guess now maybe hocks need injected or stifles blistered or maybe both. And maybe get a new vet.
Every single time I have thought my horse was sore, but chose to dink around with local vets instead of biting the bullet and driving the 200+ miles to a good vet, I have wasted hundreds of dollars and months of time when my horse could have been healing, instead of still trying the myriad of guesses on why they were sore.
Amen to this. I spent a couple of thousand dollars and a whole year out on my one mare just because I was lazy and didnt want to make the 4 hour drive to see Dr. Tanner. Had I immediately went to him, I would have saved time AND money. Lameness specialists are worth their weight in gold. It may be a whole day trip for me and cost me a crap ton of money but Dr. Tanner has yet to let me down and has saved Grasshopper's life and saved Lilly's career. There is a reason why the pros use him...
OP-I would follow everyone's advice and get to a good lamenes specialist. Good luck and I hope you get a good diagnosis soon!!! | |
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Pork Fat is my Favorite
Posts: 3791
Location: The Oklahoma plains. | rodeowithjoker - 2014-04-22 1:02 PM ACEINTHEHOLE - 2014-04-22 11:56 AM rodeowithjoker - 2014-04-22 11:47 AM dianeguinn - 2014-04-22 11:33 AM Melanie, I don't know how far it is to Pryor from where you live, but Dr. Propp has a Lameness Locator and he found a problem with my horse that no one else did by using it. He took about 4 hours with me and my friend and was spot on with both horses....he then told us what we needed to do to fix it and said to go back to our regular vets if we wanted. I was very impressed with him and that might be the way to go with Chance. I know TurnLane has used him, as well, and was well pleased. At least that would show you ALL the exact places he's hurting instead of having to guess. It wasn't terribly expensive, either. It cost me around $250. I was shocked that 4 hours of his time was that cheap. :) You might try that next, and that way you could be sure you're not missing anything. He's in NE OK, so he might not be terribly far from you. Just my suggestion. That would be well worth it. I'm an hour north of Independence KS so Oklahoma's not a terrible drive for me. I think Tulsa was 2.5 hours.
918-825-1717 | |
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