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Poll Nurse Mare debate?? - No Fighting please

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Nurse Mare debate?? - No Fighting please
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I don't have a problem with career nurse maresFlyingHigh1454
I heavily disapprove of career nurse maresFlyingHigh1454
I don't have an opinion either wayFlyingHigh1454
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IRunOnFaith
Reg. Dec 2009
Posted 2015-03-25 1:22 PM
Subject: RE: Nurse Mare debate?? - No Fighting please



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I had to do a paper in College on a controversial product. So I picked Premarin.

The mares stand in "stalls" for up to 23 hours a day connected to a catheter and most are locked in a head gate. They stand on concrete all day (some are lucky and get mats). The bars on these "stalls" are just wide enough for them to squeeze in to.

If one falls while standing in a stall they tie her up by the barrel and keep her on her feet until she dies. If she is lucky she gets to be taken outside and hosed off during her one hour "break" from collection. Most don't get hosed off.

Some farms bottle the colostrum and sell it instead of give it to the foal. Most foals die waiting to be rescued. Others are shipped for meat. 

Sad situation for all involved... 



Here is a link:   http://www.equinevoices.org/horses/issues/premarin/



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rodeomom3
Reg. Dec 2007
Posted 2015-03-25 1:25 PM
Subject: RE: Nurse Mare debate?? - No Fighting please



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Whiteboy - 2015-03-25 11:29 AM I think it comes down to whether or not horses are considered livestock.  Some want to love and kiss and hug thier horses, some want to make money on them.    

I disagree with this, whether they are considered livestock are not, headed to slaughter or headed to be a pet, the end does not justify the means and cruelty never has to be a part of the equation.   To sacrifice one foal to make a profit is just heartless.  Bottle feed the orphan instead of creating another one to make a buck.  Whether an animal is bred for slaughter or to be a back yard pet, they both can be treated humanely.  I don't consider this practice a necessity at all.
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Southtxponygirl
Reg. Nov 2006
Posted 2015-03-25 1:31 PM
Subject: RE: Nurse Mare debate?? - No Fighting please



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This is most saddest heartbreaking thread I have ever read. Shameful  
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fatchance
Reg. Oct 2003
Posted 2015-03-25 1:40 PM
Subject: RE: Nurse Mare debate?? - No Fighting please


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livinonlove&horses - 2015-03-25 9:26 AM
3canstorun - 2015-03-25 11:15 AM
fatchance - 2015-03-25 11:54 AM
livinonlove&horses - 2015-03-25 5:40 AM  I read an article where a lot of TB goals are raised by nurse mares. Because they are worth so much when they are born and the mare needs to be rebred which requires travel because they won't AI it's too risky to send the foal with the mare. So it is raised by a nurse mare while the mare is shipped for rebreeding
Please direct me to this article.  I assure you I have never seen this practice. 
Here is one article - I just googled and found several but this name I do recognize. 



http://stacywestfallhorseblog.com/2014/03/16/what-are-nurse-mare-foals/

 
Thank you. That is the article I read. I found it on the Saving Baby FB page

Consider the source, seriously I was in this industry for years, and most mares are shipped to where the stallion is standing that they want to be bred to BEFORE the mare foals, they foal her out.  I can argue many points on this crap article but I know it would change no ones minds here.  SO I won't waste anyones time.
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HarlanLivesOn
Reg. May 2009
Posted 2015-03-25 1:51 PM
Subject: RE: Nurse Mare debate?? - No Fighting please



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fatchance - 2015-03-25 12:40 PM
livinonlove&horses - 2015-03-25 9:26 AM
3canstorun - 2015-03-25 11:15 AM
fatchance - 2015-03-25 11:54 AM
livinonlove&horses - 2015-03-25 5:40 AM  I read an article where a lot of TB goals are raised by nurse mares. Because they are worth so much when they are born and the mare needs to be rebred which requires travel because they won't AI it's too risky to send the foal with the mare. So it is raised by a nurse mare while the mare is shipped for rebreeding
Please direct me to this article.  I assure you I have never seen this practice. 
Here is one article - I just googled and found several but this name I do recognize. 



http://stacywestfallhorseblog.com/2014/03/16/what-are-nurse-mare-foals/

 
Thank you. That is the article I read. I found it on the Saving Baby FB page
Consider the source, seriously I was in this industry for years, and most mares are shipped to where the stallion is standing that they want to be bred to BEFORE the mare foals, they foal her out.  I can argue many points on this crap article but I know it would change no ones minds here.  SO I won't waste anyones time.

Not arguing- I understand that you've had a good experience while working in the industry with how mares and foals were dealt Fatchance, but there's always another side of things.  I'm not saying that this is a widespread occurance, but I do know of a few people who have rescued and bottle fed nurse mare foals, so it does happen (to what extent, I'm not sure).
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mruggles
Reg. Oct 2008
Posted 2015-03-25 1:56 PM
Subject: RE: Nurse Mare debate?? - No Fighting please



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IRunOnFaith - 2015-03-26 12:22 PM I had to do a paper in College on a controversial product. So I picked Premarin.



The mares stand in "stalls" for up to 23 hours a day connected to a catheter and most are locked in a head gate. They stand on concrete all day (some are lucky and get mats). The bars on these "stalls" are just wide enough for them to squeeze in to.



If one falls while standing in a stall they tie her up by the barrel and keep her on her feet until she dies. If she is lucky she gets to be taken outside and hosed off during her one hour "break" from collection. Most don't get hosed off.



Some farms bottle the colostrum and sell it instead of give it to the foal. Most foals die waiting to be rescued. Others are shipped for meat. 



Sad situation for all involved... 







Here is a link:   http://www.equinevoices.org/horses/issues/premarin/

a lot of this is BS................. especially the catheter part....and head gate i call bs on that to.....probably came from a peta or shark site

m
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livinonlove&horses
Reg. Jun 2008
Posted 2015-03-25 2:22 PM
Subject: RE: Nurse Mare debate?? - No Fighting please



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fatchance - 2015-03-25 1:40 PM
livinonlove&horses - 2015-03-25 9:26 AM
3canstorun - 2015-03-25 11:15 AM
fatchance - 2015-03-25 11:54 AM
livinonlove&horses - 2015-03-25 5:40 AM  I read an article where a lot of TB goals are raised by nurse mares. Because they are worth so much when they are born and the mare needs to be rebred which requires travel because they won't AI it's too risky to send the foal with the mare. So it is raised by a nurse mare while the mare is shipped for rebreeding
Please direct me to this article.  I assure you I have never seen this practice. 
Here is one article - I just googled and found several but this name I do recognize. 



http://stacywestfallhorseblog.com/2014/03/16/what-are-nurse-mare-foals/

 
Thank you. That is the article I read. I found it on the Saving Baby FB page
Consider the source, seriously I was in this industry for years, and most mares are shipped to where the stallion is standing that they want to be bred to BEFORE the mare foals, they foal her out.  I can argue many points on this crap article but I know it would change no ones minds here.  SO I won't waste anyones time.

 Decifering what is legit info on the net compared to personal experience is hard. I'm not saying this is true. It's just what I read. It's not like the TB racing world is squeaky clean in its practices and this would be the only dirty secret. But if not then why does Last Chance Corral have so many orphan foals?  What are they being produced for?

Edited to add. If I considered myself and even my friends to be the source and gospel on how horses are treated then it would be safe to say all horses are treated like big furry children and never starve or get mistreated. But what happens on my farm or the farms of people I know is not the reality of all horses. You only have to cruise Craig's list to see that.


Edited by livinonlove&horses 2015-03-25 2:28 PM
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fatchance
Reg. Oct 2003
Posted 2015-03-25 2:49 PM
Subject: RE: Nurse Mare debate?? - No Fighting please


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livinonlove&horses - 2015-03-25 12:22 PM
fatchance - 2015-03-25 1:40 PM
livinonlove&horses - 2015-03-25 9:26 AM
3canstorun - 2015-03-25 11:15 AM
fatchance - 2015-03-25 11:54 AM
livinonlove&horses - 2015-03-25 5:40 AM  I read an article where a lot of TB goals are raised by nurse mares. Because they are worth so much when they are born and the mare needs to be rebred which requires travel because they won't AI it's too risky to send the foal with the mare. So it is raised by a nurse mare while the mare is shipped for rebreeding
Please direct me to this article.  I assure you I have never seen this practice. 
Here is one article - I just googled and found several but this name I do recognize. 



http://stacywestfallhorseblog.com/2014/03/16/what-are-nurse-mare-foals/

 
Thank you. That is the article I read. I found it on the Saving Baby FB page
Consider the source, seriously I was in this industry for years, and most mares are shipped to where the stallion is standing that they want to be bred to BEFORE the mare foals, they foal her out.  I can argue many points on this crap article but I know it would change no ones minds here.  SO I won't waste anyones time.
 Decifering what is legit info on the net compared to personal experience is hard. I'm not saying this is true. It's just what I read. It's not like the TB racing world is squeaky clean in its practices and this would be the only dirty secret. But if not then why does Last Chance Corral have so many orphan foals?  What are they being produced for? Edited to add. If I considered myself and even my friends to be the source and gospel on how horses are treated then it would be safe to say all horses are treated like big furry children and never starve or get mistreated. But what happens on my farm or the farms of people I know is not the reality of all horses. You only have to cruise Craig's list to see that.

 There is bad everywhere.  But some have made it their battle cry and their bleeding hearts could cause more damage than you can see coming.  Like I have said a million times, God help us all the day they win and our equines will be labled pets.  

I am thrilled I have NEVER witnessed what I call abuse of nurse mares and or their foals. Sure not going to flush down the masses who use them as intended because a few suck.  
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rodeomom3
Reg. Dec 2007
Posted 2015-03-25 2:59 PM
Subject: RE: Nurse Mare debate?? - No Fighting please



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fatchance - 2015-03-25 2:49 PM
livinonlove&horses - 2015-03-25 12:22 PM
fatchance - 2015-03-25 1:40 PM
livinonlove&horses - 2015-03-25 9:26 AM
3canstorun - 2015-03-25 11:15 AM
fatchance - 2015-03-25 11:54 AM
livinonlove&horses - 2015-03-25 5:40 AM  I read an article where a lot of TB goals are raised by nurse mares. Because they are worth so much when they are born and the mare needs to be rebred which requires travel because they won't AI it's too risky to send the foal with the mare. So it is raised by a nurse mare while the mare is shipped for rebreeding
Please direct me to this article.  I assure you I have never seen this practice. 
Here is one article - I just googled and found several but this name I do recognize. 



http://stacywestfallhorseblog.com/2014/03/16/what-are-nurse-mare-foals/

 
Thank you. That is the article I read. I found it on the Saving Baby FB page
Consider the source, seriously I was in this industry for years, and most mares are shipped to where the stallion is standing that they want to be bred to BEFORE the mare foals, they foal her out.  I can argue many points on this crap article but I know it would change no ones minds here.  SO I won't waste anyones time.
 Decifering what is legit info on the net compared to personal experience is hard. I'm not saying this is true. It's just what I read. It's not like the TB racing world is squeaky clean in its practices and this would be the only dirty secret. But if not then why does Last Chance Corral have so many orphan foals?  What are they being produced for? Edited to add. If I considered myself and even my friends to be the source and gospel on how horses are treated then it would be safe to say all horses are treated like big furry children and never starve or get mistreated. But what happens on my farm or the farms of people I know is not the reality of all horses. You only have to cruise Craig's list to see that.
 There is bad everywhere.  But some have made it their battle cry and their bleeding hearts could cause more damage than you can see coming.  Like I have said a million times, God help us all the day they win and our equines will be labled pets.  



I am thrilled I have NEVER witnessed what I call abuse of nurse mares and or their foals. Sure not going to flush down the masses who use them as intended because a few suck.  

Just the fact that the mares are bred each year to have their foals taken away is abuse.  How many threads do we read about over population of horses,  blaming backyard breeders when a whole industry is contributing significantly to this problem- all to make a quicker buck.   Label a horse livestock or a pet, it does not matter, but quit over breeding and thinking of them as disposable- the end does not always justify the means.  

Edited by rodeomom3 2015-03-25 3:23 PM
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fatchance
Reg. Oct 2003
Posted 2015-03-25 3:03 PM
Subject: RE: Nurse Mare debate?? - No Fighting please


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I knew not to touch this thread and yet I did.   
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barrelracr131
Reg. Aug 2011
Posted 2015-03-25 3:25 PM
Subject: RE: Nurse Mare debate?? - No Fighting please


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fatchance - 2015-03-25 3:03 PM I knew not to touch this thread and yet I did.   

I agree with you FC. I, too, have heard that this practice is extremely uncommon, to the point of being an "almost never" deal. 

do I agree with this idea? No, I think it is unethical. However, I think that this practice is not one often done anymore, especially since research has shown a foal is more likely to thrive in the care of the mare that carried it to term. 
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rodeomom3
Reg. Dec 2007
Posted 2015-03-25 3:43 PM
Subject: RE: Nurse Mare debate?? - No Fighting please



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barrelracr131 - 2015-03-25 3:25 PM
fatchance - 2015-03-25 3:03 PM I knew not to touch this thread and yet I did.   
I agree with you FC. I, too, have heard that this practice is extremely uncommon, to the point of being an "almost never" deal. 



do I agree with this idea? No, I think it is unethical. However, I think that this practice is not one often done anymore, especially since research has shown a foal is more likely to thrive in the care of the mare that carried it to term. 

Here is a 2013 article from a manager of a nurse mare farm- he keeps 100 mares bred each year- that adds up to a lot of babies over the years.  It seems to happen more than we think and I agree, it is unethical.
Rachel Alexandra's Bernardini filly with nurse mare, OjosRachel Alexandra's Bernardini filly with nurse mare, Ojos
When veterinarians discovered a bacterial infection following exploratory abdominal surgery on champion race mare Rachel Alexandra, her 2013 Bernardini filly was immediately transferred to a nurse mare.
Although they aren’t well-publicized players in the breeding industry, nurse mares are much-appreciated surrogates in a variety of situations. Most commonly they are brought in by Thoroughbred breeders when a foal is born to a mare who dies or experiences major health issues that render her unable to care for a foal.  The latter was the case with Rachel Alexandra, who returned home to Stonestreet Farm Tuesday after several weeks at Rood & Riddle Equine Hospital. Nurse mares may also be called in if a broodmare rejects her foal or if she has difficulty producing milk.
Derby Dollars Contest
WinStar Farm general manager Chris Baker said that for mares in the latter category, managers employ hormonal therapies such as domperidone or oxytocin (both of which are used in women) to encourage milk production or letdown in mares before bringing a surrogate into the mix.
“Nobody takes the decision of putting a foal on a nurse mare lightly,” he said. “A foal is best raised by its own mother. You’re going to make efforts to get the mare to produce milk if that’s the issue.”
A nurse mare may be requested if a broodmare is shipping out of the country to be bred and the foal is too small to make the journey, although such cases are relatively rare. Nurse mares are not brought in for the one to three hours in which a broodmare is sent away from the farm to be bred back, Baker said.
“There’s a bonding process that has to take place that’s not something you can do temporarily,” he said. “You’re not going to try to do it temporarily; it’s kind of like flipping a switch. When you go with that, you stay with it for the safety of the mare and foal.”
Some larger farms keep their own band of nurse mares, while others lease nurse mares as needed. Bill Roseberry, who manages Roseberry’s Nurse Mares in Central Kentucky, said he gets calls throughout the foaling season, although this year seems especially busy. He’s already sent 26 mares out to help struggling foals and has received an additional 60 or 70 calls requesting his mares. Roseberry keeps close to 100 mares on his farm, many of whom are Quarter Horses and Tennessee Walkers.
While there is concern about mistreatment to nurse mares or their foals, Baker and Roseberry said that nurse mare facilities operate like any other aspect of the equine world—some may mistreat their horses, but “the majority” strive to find nurse mare foals good homes.
“I would like to get people to understand that we have been doing this for over 30 years, and we have yet to kill a foal for any reason unless it had some sort of physical problem that can’t be fixed,” Roseberry said. “If I had to ‘dispose’ of foals like that, I’d be out of the business. I feel very strongly about that.”
“Responsible nurse mare owners love those foals like their own,” echoed Baker, who said in his experience, mistreatment of nurse mare foals is not the norm. “There are people who are feeding their horses before they’re feeding themselves.”
Nurse mare, Blondie, with foal at Roseberry's Nurse Mares farm
Nurse mare, Blondie, with foal while leased out on assignment
When a nurse mare is sent out to care for a new foal, the introduction process is slow and steady. She is often outfitted with restraints such as a blindfold and/or hobbles to allow her to move and gradually acclimate to the new baby while preventing her from kicking or biting the foal in surprise if the meeting doesn’t go well. Managers may also employ a mild tranquilizer or Vicks VapoRub to keep the mare calm and reduce the number of overwhelming scents that might put her on edge. The acclimation takes between 12 and 24 hours and is carefully monitored by farm personnel who gradually remove the blindfold or hobbles. After the bonding period is over, nurse mare and baby are considered a pair and remain together until the foal would normally be weaned. Once a foal is attached to a nurse mare, it will not be reunited with its dam, since it likely would not recognize her.
Baker and Roseberry said that experienced nurse mares handle the transition well and need minimal management, and young foals don’t act stressed or depressed by the change. Older foals who have developed recognition of their dams are slower to transition, Baker said, but usually settle in with some extra attention when they get hungry.
As adults, WinStar’s Baker said he doesn’t often see any lasting effects of a horse’s upbringing by a nurse mare as opposed to its biological parent. In cases where a foal was bottle-raised for a period of time before transitioning to a surrogate, however, he said adults tend to be more people-oriented than average.
Nurse mares are often bred back to teaser stallions on the breeding farm during their lease, and Roseberry said he prefers they be sent to stallions “with some color” to make the nurse mare foal more marketable as a riding horse.
Although milk production can be enhanced by hormones, a mare must have a foal each year to continue lactation. Roseberry said that on his farm, which has been in operation 32 years, his family raises nurse mare foals until they are old enough for sale.
Roseberry said he ensures nurse mare foals receive the antibody and nutrient-rich colostrum from their dams in the first hours after birth, and he does not separate them until he is sure the foal’s immune system is off to a good start. Foals are allowed to nurse until the mare is needed, at which point the process is similar to the weaning that all horses go through. Nurse mare foals are raised together and appear content to drink from a bottle or bucket.
“Everybody has their own opinion, but I would say that they do not know any different,” Roseberry said. “They’re well taken care of, and it’s very seldom we have any problem getting them to eat and drink.”
Because nurse mare foals are bottle-raised, they tend to be very gentle and people-oriented, making them easy to market as riding horses or 4-H projects. Roseberry said he sells many for this purpose, keeps a few to add to his band of mares, and works with a farm in Ohio to successfully place those that don’t find homes right away.
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ThreeCorners
Reg. Nov 2003
Posted 2015-03-25 4:44 PM
Subject: RE: Nurse Mare debate?? - No Fighting please


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Considering the fact they can now bring just about any mare into lactation then this seems like a no brainer to use hormone therapy rather then breeding the mares, waiting a year and putting both mare and the foal through all that. The foals are innocent in all of this and it's so needless.  
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EqualRanch
Reg. Jan 2015
Posted 2015-03-25 5:11 PM
Subject: RE: Nurse Mare debate?? - No Fighting please





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barrelracr131 - 2015-03-25 3:25 PM
fatchance - 2015-03-25 3:03 PM I knew not to touch this thread and yet I did.   
I agree with you FC. I, too, have heard that this practice is extremely uncommon, to the point of being an "almost never" deal. 



do I agree with this idea? No, I think it is unethical. However, I think that this practice is not one often done anymore, especially since research has shown a foal is more likely to thrive in the care of the mare that carried it to term. 

Exactly, I agree with BR131... I knew not to even read the OP. 
So, now I have to use this as an opportunity to bit my tongue and keep my thoughts, opinions and sarcasm to myself. 
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Calangelo
Reg. Nov 2003
Posted 2015-03-25 5:57 PM
Subject: RE: Nurse Mare debate?? - No Fighting please


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Last Chance Corral is an organization that saves nurse mare foals and adopts them out. Pretty heartbreaking for these babies: https://www.facebook.com/pages/Last-Chance-Corral/45502380989?fref=t...
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Southtxponygirl
Reg. Nov 2006
Posted 2015-03-25 6:03 PM
Subject: RE: Nurse Mare debate?? - No Fighting please



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Calangelo - 2015-03-25 5:57 PM Last Chance Corral is an organization that saves nurse mare foals and adopts them out. Pretty heartbreaking for these babies: https://www.facebook.com/pages/Last-Chance-Corral/45502380989?fref=t...
Oh why did I open this   those poor poor babys that dont have their mom's. At least they are being taken care of, but this is so heartbreaking and not right to keep bringing these babys into the world..
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rodeomom3
Reg. Dec 2007
Posted 2015-03-25 6:13 PM
Subject: RE: Nurse Mare debate?? - No Fighting please



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Southtxponygirl - 2015-03-25 6:03 PM
Calangelo - 2015-03-25 5:57 PM Last Chance Corral is an organization that saves nurse mare foals and adopts them out. Pretty heartbreaking for these babies: https://www.facebook.com/pages/Last-Chance-Corral/45502380989?fref=t... Oh why did I open this   those poor poor babys that dont have their mom's. At least they are being taken care of, but this is so heartbreaking and not right to keep bringing these babys into the world..

I bet this is the organization that the manager referred to in the above article.  He said he "tries to find homes for the foals and works with a group that takes the ones he cannot sell".  Both are in Ohio, looks like alot are left without homes, either way the nurse mare farm is making $$, leasing the momas and selling the babies.  You know, you create this situation but are not willing to take care of these babies, too much time and manpower, does not sound too caring to me and "I do everything I can for those babies, I treat them like my own".  I call BS.  
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Calangelo
Reg. Nov 2003
Posted 2015-03-25 6:17 PM
Subject: RE: Nurse Mare debate?? - No Fighting please


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rodeomom3 - 2015-03-25 6:13 PM

Southtxponygirl - 2015-03-25 6:03 PM
Calangelo - 2015-03-25 5:57 PM Last Chance Corral is an organization that saves nurse mare foals and adopts them out. Pretty heartbreaking for these babies: https://www.facebook.com/pages/Last-Chance-Corral/45502380989?fref=t... Oh why did I open this   those poor poor babys that dont have their mom's. At least they are being taken care of, but this is so heartbreaking and not right to keep bringing these babys into the world..

I bet this is the organization that the manager referred to in the above article.  He said he "tries to find homes for the foals and works with a group that takes the ones he cannot sell".  Both are in Ohio, looks like alot are left without homes, either way the nurse mare farm is making $$, leasing the momas and selling the babies.  You know, you create this situation but are not willing to take care of these babies, too much time and manpower, does not sound too caring to me and "I do everything I can for those babies, I treat them like my own".  I call BS.  

My understanding is that the organization has to buy the foals from him.
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Calangelo
Reg. Nov 2003
Posted 2015-03-25 6:20 PM
Subject: RE: Nurse Mare debate?? - No Fighting please


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EqualRanch - 2015-03-25 5:11 PM

barrelracr131 - 2015-03-25 3:25 PM
fatchance - 2015-03-25 3:03 PM I knew not to touch this thread and yet I did.   
I agree with you FC. I, too, have heard that this practice is extremely uncommon, to the point of being an "almost never" deal. 



do I agree with this idea? No, I think it is unethical. However, I think that this practice is not one often done anymore, especially since research has shown a foal is more likely to thrive in the care of the mare that carried it to term. 

Exactly, I agree with BR131... I knew not to even read the OP. 
So, now I have to use this as an opportunity to bit my tongue and keep my thoughts, opinions and sarcasm to myself. 

I don't understand why people are feeling they need to bite their toungue and feel like they need to not be sarcastic. Even if this is not widespread, it is still happening and it's wrong. That's my opinion anyway.
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Bibliafarm
Reg. Jul 2008
Posted 2015-03-25 6:33 PM
Subject: RE: Nurse Mare debate?? - No Fighting please


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countrygirl2006 - 2015-03-25 1:00 PM
Bibliafarm - 2015-03-25 11:37 AM  Why do they not just bottle feed their orphan the question is... why rely on a mare that had a foal and it  is taken away from her so owners can lease mare for $$ .

to say the foals removed are bottle fed is a bit skeptical.. this is a business for owners to make $$ that clearly have other alternatives.. fact is people will be buying up mares and breeding and tossing away the foals to lease her out and make $$ and more and more .Another brilliant money hungry scheme to add to the unwanted horses..and or tossed away horses and foals..
Because the first orphan foal is essentially worth a whole lot of money and they would prefer it to be raised on true milk and not bottlefed with replacement. This isn't a practice that common, everyday people use. (Example us obviously) But your larger farms with high dollared foals will most likely do this. I interned for a very well known QH race farm and this was a practice that they used. Although realistically it was very uncommon for them to need a nurse mare.



Not saying I agree with it, but just explaining what I know.

The foals where I train at are high dollar foals and we always found a mare  that lost thier foal or bottle fed ..never once thought to use a assembly line mare.. with that said..I realize its not all like that but it could get to that point.. a quick buck..I think its sad . 
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