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Expert
Posts: 4766
   
Location: Bandera, TX | epoh - 2015-05-20 7:09 PM Thank you for sharing, I IV and have heard many stories, but this thread has great info! So question: if you place the needle and you do happen to hit the artery and the blood is squirting and not dripping, you just reposition to find the vein? Won't the horse still seizure or have an episode? No, hitting the artery in an of itself should not cause a SZ. You should take the needle out and apply direct pressure for a minute (to 5 min if a hematoma develops). SZ occur due to the medications. You then should use the other side of the neck. Keep the horse still for a time is advised if a hematoma develops.
I can't remember who mentioned the event with the Epi while she was working with the vet clinic but I want to bring to your attention, that epi can be hard to come by due to national shortages. I think its a great idea to have epi in your home/travel emergency kits and have it nearby so that it's there if you need it. I had a similiar event at a rodeo, I was able to ride back across the parking area in time to give a dose of Epi to a horse that went down post injection. The Vet said it saved the horses life. (He was already down and had been in SZ for several minutes before they found me.)
When we work cattle my husband keeps it nearby as we've had the need for it there too!
OP Your a gem for putting this PSA out there, we all need to be vigilant!
Edited by uno-dos-tres! 2015-05-20 9:35 PM
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 Transplant Okie
Posts: 1206
Location: Always on call..... | We did the exact same thing to my horse last year. Actually gave him the whole dose of banamine in the artery. Before we pulled the needle out he was seizing. Like you said it was literally the most horrific thing I have ever seen - and I am an ER doctor.
The horse went bananas. Tore down a fence, broke off fence posts, flipped over the cinder block well house, hit his head on the barn roof, crashed into everything. I honestly can't believe he is still alive. I was like you - during the whole thing (which lasted probably 15 minutes, felt like an eternity) I just kept hoping he'd die.
Other than hang being pretty sore and scraped up he didn't have any lasting effects...
My best friend is an equine vet and she said every vet she knows has done it. | |
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  Neat Freak
Posts: 11216
Location: Wonderful Wyoming | Like everyone else said, a really great post. I have given many many IV drugs. Where I live it is do or die either way, same with tubing a calf. Called a neighbor for some advice and it was either die trying or it would die anyways. You get pretty good at it when there is nothing to lose actually. I had to Banamine a mare just this morning with no one around to help. That is usually how it goes. So far so good. I have found I prefer and am more comfortable with 1" needles as well, just take my time, press on the vein until it is really visable and insert the needle at a good angle. We are never so experienced that we can't learn more though. That is the test of a true person in any field. Always something new to learn. I can IV all day long with not too many worries but I won't do a friends horse when they ask, no thank you. Too much risk involved as this thread clearly shows. | |
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 Money Eating Baggage Owner
Posts: 9586
Location: Phoenix | How big is the vein? Anyone have some good articles? | |
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Industrial Srength Barrel Racer
Posts: 7268
| barrelrider - 2015-05-20 3:49 PM
I'm very sorry this happened to you and your horse, but THANK YOU for sharing your story. The vet that taught me, many years ago, to hit a vein NEVERRRRR mentioned this to me. I'm very blessed that this didn't happen to me, because I've given many doses of Banimine. Another vet explained what could happen if the needle was in the wrong spot. I am not an uneducated horse owner either. I now remove the needle and administer the drug the correct way. Many prayers for you and the horse. Thank you again for educating others!
This! Thank you for the info - I had no idea either and I have IV'd scads of horses - my gosh, I would have freaked if this would have happened! Any more, I just squirt Banamine in their mouth, my vet told me about giving it this way and while it is slower to work, I figure it's less stress on me and way better than giving it in the muscle. | |
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 Extreme Veteran
Posts: 317
Location: MS | My vet told me that the higher in the neck the farther you are from the artery. I only use a 1" needle.
I've been lucky so far. I know alot of people that have hit the artery. Scary. | |
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 Veteran
Posts: 239
| cheryl makofka - 2015-05-20 3:49 PM star1218 - 2015-05-20 3:44 PM so sorry you had to go thru this!
I have had a similar experience, giving a penicillin based shot and according to my vet I must have nicked a blood vessel. He said he's seen the reaction before. No sooner than I shut the stall door his eyes bulged, nostrils flared, and he was TERRIFIED of EVERYTHING in his stall, his hay, his bucket, the feeder, he was spinning and darn near backing himself into a sitting position as he had no where to go. I was praying he wouldn't try to jump out the window! It maybe lasted 2 or 3 minutes, but it felt like an eternity.
Vet said, it gets up into the brain (something like that) and can cause reactions like that.
Scary stuff! This particular horse has heaves and has had a LOT of shots in his day and only twice has this happened to him. Procamine reaction it isn't the penicillin that causes it, it is the local anesthetic mixed in the penicillin. The procamine stops the brain from processing and if the brain doesn't restart it kills them, that is why it is always important to withdraw with penicillin, and even that is no guarantee as my first horse who had the reaction no evidence of blood when I withdrew the 4 times during administration
Cheryl is right - its not the pen that causes the reaction, its the procaine.....sounds like cocaine, rite? Same reaction you can hit the tiniest of vessels and they will flip out! The majority get over it very quickly and do just fine if they don't hurt themselves, which is the main concern.
Two months out of vet school, I once injected Procaine pen G IM, drew back, no blood but I must have moved the needle a tiny bit - it really doesn't take much for a very scary reaction. I about died!
To the OP - kudos for posting and sharing your story! I think you could not have injected very much banamine IM/SC, so I don't anticipate you should see any kind of irritation/cellulitis if you're worried about that! | |
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Miss Southern Sunshine
Posts: 7427
Location: South Central Florida | Question here, a few years ago I gave banamine IV to our mare, I do remember having trouble hitting the vein, and when I was done, she was sort of leaning up against the wall....then leaned on me and eyes rolled up in her head, and she went down. No thrashing or anything (we were in a stall). In just a moment, she stood up, shook her head, and seemed to be fine. I never knew what happened, but I assumed I hit the artery. I now give it either in the mouth or paste unless it is absolutely totally 100% necessary. Based on the descriptions on here, I'm not totally sure if that's what happened, but I'm thinking maybe I nicked the artery?
I coming to the end of 12 weeks of treating a stromal abcess. Several vets involved and all of them wanted Banamine used and I could not afford daily the paste, but I gave it liquid in the mouth, squirted it on treats and on top of her feed. Any way I could get it down with out doing IV. I was just too afraid to try it again.
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 Experienced Mouse Trapper
Posts: 3106
Location: North Dakota | It's possible you hit the artery but I would be inclined to wonder if IV banamine just doesn't agree with her?? Has anyone ever iv'd her with banamine since? This reaction was definitely a seizure, not just a drug reaction. Maybe yours was pushed too fast which can have an overwhelming "headache" like reaction on the body??
Thanks everyone for sharing, horse is VERY sore, he has some radial nerve damage and has an appointment for another acupuncture treatment tomorrow. Hopefully in a month this will all be behind me.
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1079
| 2H~QH - 2015-05-21 11:50 AM cheryl makofka - 2015-05-20 3:49 PM star1218 - 2015-05-20 3:44 PM so sorry you had to go thru this!
I have had a similar experience, giving a penicillin based shot and according to my vet I must have nicked a blood vessel. He said he's seen the reaction before. No sooner than I shut the stall door his eyes bulged, nostrils flared, and he was TERRIFIED of EVERYTHING in his stall, his hay, his bucket, the feeder, he was spinning and darn near backing himself into a sitting position as he had no where to go. I was praying he wouldn't try to jump out the window! It maybe lasted 2 or 3 minutes, but it felt like an eternity.
Vet said, it gets up into the brain (something like that) and can cause reactions like that.
Scary stuff! This particular horse has heaves and has had a LOT of shots in his day and only twice has this happened to him. Procamine reaction it isn't the penicillin that causes it, it is the local anesthetic mixed in the penicillin. The procamine stops the brain from processing and if the brain doesn't restart it kills them, that is why it is always important to withdraw with penicillin, and even that is no guarantee as my first horse who had the reaction no evidence of blood when I withdrew the 4 times during administration
Two months out of vet school, I once injected Procaine pen G IM, drew back, no blood but I must have moved the needle a tiny bit - it really doesn't take much for a very scary reaction. I about died!
To the OP - kudos for posting and sharing your story! I think you could not have injected very much banamine IM/SC, so I don't anticipate you should see any kind of irritation/cellulitis if you're worried about that!
Sure - I am not a vet lol, just sharing my experience injecting something incredibly common. It is scary and could definitely catch someone off guard if they didn't know a simple shot could cause a very extreme reaction. Good discussion. | |
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