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 Accident Prone
Posts: 22277
   
Location: 100 miles from Nowhere, AR | fastwrapn3 - 2015-06-02 9:15 AM A lot of my friends stand their horses in the alleyway they call it scoring? I think it is cruel and unnecessary. 
Scoring a barrel horse is not the same as walking in, stopping, and then blasting off for a competition run. I score mine because I don't want them thinking that every time they go down the alley, or approach the pattern they need to be revved up or running Mach 9. Scoring can be standing in the alley, walking in and back out, walking to the first barrel and stopping until relaxed, walking to the first barrel and getting off...lots of different ways to go about it and relaxation is the goal. I give a specific signal when we're about to run and I expect my horse to know the difference. |
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 Living within my means
Posts: 5128
Location: Randolph, Utah | Our 4H doesn't require you to acknowledge the judge but you can't start until the gate is closed. Safety they say (insert eye roll) it makes it tough on kids riding finished horses. More than once the gate lady got yelled at for not closing the gate quick on girls with finished powerful horses.
I'm anti 4H so maybe that effects my opinion but i hated the rule 20 years ago when I was in 4H and I still hate it! |
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 Shelter Dog Lover
Posts: 10277
| Three 4 Luck - 2015-06-02 9:36 AM fastwrapn3 - 2015-06-02 9:15 AM A lot of my friends stand their horses in the alleyway they call it scoring? I think it is cruel and unnecessary. Scoring a barrel horse is not the same as walking in, stopping, and then blasting off for a competition run. I score mine because I don't want them thinking that every time they go down the alley, or approach the pattern they need to be revved up or running Mach 9. Scoring can be standing in the alley, walking in and back out, walking to the first barrel and stopping until relaxed, walking to the first barrel and getting off...lots of different ways to go about it and relaxation is the goal. I give a specific signal when we're about to run and I expect my horse to know the difference.
I always thought walking and standing in the alley or scoring, was a good thing, teaching they don't always have to be on the muscle and it can be a relaxing place too. I can walk calmly in on the drags but they feel my energy and nerves when it is time to run- they know the difference. We always scored our roping horses in the box too. |
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 Veteran
Posts: 287
| I want to clarify, not sure if I have clearly or not, or that it makes a difference ...I am not referring to quiet in and out of the gate or alley. What this judge (and one other here) makes the kids do is come in the gate, go to the starting point and wait. I do think horses should be scored in and out or the alley or gate. However I do not feel it's ok or safe to expect a barrel horses to sit at the starting line, in that "hot zone" waiting for a judge to give them the go signal.
I think acknowledging them before they enter the arena is appropriate. Then once the enter the arena the rider and horse can dial in on their job. And I've read pro after pro say once they enter the arena, they want their horse focused in on their job.
Edited by wickedstepmother 2015-06-02 10:10 AM
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 Expert
Posts: 1367
Location: mi | Since it is 4H and safety in and out of the pen is a huge concern. I think if it was me I would go for a rewrite of the rule. To say something to the effect of....
The exhibitor must enter the arena at a walk or jog. Exhibitor may not start on pattern until the judge has blown a whistle signaling that the pattern is set and gate is shut. After such time the Exhibitor has 30 seconds to start the pattern.
This gives the exhibitor the opportunity to keep the horse moving in a circle or off to the side or where ever until the ring is set and safe. And doesn't force them to take off the minute the whistle is blown either. They can get themselves set up.
I think that would be a happy compromise for a 4H show where you have lots of inexperienced horse people both in and out of the pen. |
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Expert
Posts: 1367
Location: mi | Also you have every right in any association to submit a rule change. Sometimes they might even be considered. I would rather that happen then people leave or just sit and bad mouth the group. As long as if the board, or membership, (or whomever does the votes) votes down your rule change idea, you don't go off the deep end of the earth with how it is all rigged and wrong and everyone but you is stupid. :)
Had to edit cuz I spelled stupid wrong. hahahaha
Edited by ajs2002 2015-06-02 10:23 AM
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Veteran
Posts: 287
| ajs2002 - 2015-06-02 8:19 AM
Since it is 4H and safety in and out of the pen is a huge concern. I think if it was me I would go for a rewrite of the rule. To say something to the effect of....
The exhibitor must enter the arena at a walk or jog. Exhibitor may not start on pattern until the judge has blown a whistle signaling that the pattern is set and gate is shut. After such time the Exhibitor has 30 seconds to start the pattern.
This gives the exhibitor the opportunity to keep the horse moving in a circle or off to the side or where ever until the ring is set and safe. And doesn't force them to take off the minute the whistle is blown either. They can get themselves set up.
I think that would be a happy compromise for a 4H show where you have lots of inexperienced horse people both in and out of the pen.
I will keep that in mind when I write up my request. I think there is some good points to your suggestion :) |
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 Popped
Posts: 20421
Location: LuluLand~along I64 Indiana | just a friendly reminder that 4-h is not a catch all for every rule. there is alot of variation from region, to region, state to state and even county to county. Please dont hate 4-h because of a rule that does not apply to every program. for those who have rules in your area that do not work please try to educated and change what doesnt work.  |
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Veteran
Posts: 287
| Oh no, I won't go off the deep end lol. I do think it's a very high school mentality from a lot of the leaders in MY county but that's due to their personality flaws not the 4h program as a whole. People around here act like our county fair is the NFR/CONGRESS all rolled in to one lol |
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| ajs2002 - 2015-06-02 10:19 AM
Since it is 4H and safety in and out of the pen is a huge concern. I think if it was me I would go for a rewrite of the rule. To say something to the effect of....
The exhibitor must enter the arena at a walk or jog. Exhibitor may not start on pattern until the judge has blown a whistle signaling that the pattern is set and gate is shut. After such time the Exhibitor has 30 seconds to start the pattern.
This gives the exhibitor the opportunity to keep the horse moving in a circle or off to the side or where ever until the ring is set and safe. And doesn't force them to take off the minute the whistle is blown either. They can get themselves set up.
I think that would be a happy compromise for a 4H show where you have lots of inexperienced horse people both in and out of the pen.
I have seen horses enter arenas at a jog crashing into people, and fences, you are saying this is safe? |
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| wickedstepmother - 2015-06-02 10:09 AM
I want to clarify, not sure if I have clearly or not, or that it makes a difference ...I am not referring to quiet in and out of the gate or alley. What this judge (and one other here) makes the kids do is come in the gate, go to the starting point and wait. I do think horses should be scored in and out or the alley or gate. However I do not feel it's ok or safe to expect a barrel horses to sit at the starting line, in that "hot zone" waiting for a judge to give them the go signal.
I think acknowledging them before they enter the arena is appropriate. Then once the enter the arena the rider and horse can dial in on their job. And I've read pro after pro say once they enter the arena, they want their horse focused in on their job.
Have you read the 4h rule in your region, or are you going by what the judge required?
If you haven't looked at the specific wording of the rule, I suggest doing this |
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Expert
Posts: 1367
Location: mi | cheryl makofka - 2015-06-02 11:38 AM ajs2002 - 2015-06-02 10:19 AM Since it is 4H and safety in and out of the pen is a huge concern. I think if it was me I would go for a rewrite of the rule. To say something to the effect of....
The exhibitor must enter the arena at a walk or jog. Exhibitor may not start on pattern until the judge has blown a whistle signaling that the pattern is set and gate is shut. After such time the Exhibitor has 30 seconds to start the pattern.
This gives the exhibitor the opportunity to keep the horse moving in a circle or off to the side or where ever until the ring is set and safe. And doesn't force them to take off the minute the whistle is blown either. They can get themselves set up.
I think that would be a happy compromise for a 4H show where you have lots of inexperienced horse people both in and out of the pen. I have seen horses enter arenas at a jog crashing into people, and fences, you are saying this is safe?
I am saying it is safer then a horse cantering or running into the pen. I had a mare that could take out a line of other horses by the ingate going side ways at a walk. being around horses in general is not safe. People have to have some common sense especially if they are by the ingate or make up pen. You can get crippled and killed by a horse that is not in forward motion at all. There is a middle ground. No? |
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  Keeper of the King Snake
Posts: 7616
Location: Dubach, LA | I would not use the whistle. It wouldn't take long for most horses to take the whistle as the go sign. Like students being conditioned to jump up when the bell sounds. I worked at a school with no bells once. It was great. |
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Veteran
Posts: 287
| cheryl makofka - 2015-06-02 8:41 AM
wickedstepmother - 2015-06-02 10:09 AM
I want to clarify, not sure if I have clearly or not, or that it makes a difference ...I am not referring to quiet in and out of the gate or alley. What this judge (and one other here) makes the kids do is come in the gate, go to the starting point and wait. I do think horses should be scored in and out or the alley or gate. However I do not feel it's ok or safe to expect a barrel horses to sit at the starting line, in that "hot zone" waiting for a judge to give them the go signal.
I think acknowledging them before they enter the arena is appropriate. Then once the enter the arena the rider and horse can dial in on their job. And I've read pro after pro say once they enter the arena, they want their horse focused in on their job.
Have you read the 4h rule in your region, or are you going by what the judge required?
If you haven't looked at the specific wording of the rule, I suggest doing this
Of course I read the actual wording of the rule. I was on the committee to create and revise policies and procedures at our hospital once upon a time, so I am not unfamiliar with how to go about this. But thanks for dumbing it down for me. |
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Expert
Posts: 1367
Location: mi | CanCan - 2015-06-02 11:43 AM I would not use the whistle. It wouldn't take long for most horses to take the whistle as the go sign. Like students being conditioned to jump up when the bell sounds. I worked at a school with no bells once. It was great.
Yes they will if you go immediately after the whistle hence the 30 seconds to start on course after. The whistle is a way for you to stay focused on your horse and your pattern and wait for an all clear from the judge, with out having to actually be watching the judge which a previous poster had complained about. Face it there is no way to run the speed classes at a 4H event that is going to make everyone happy. So you look for what might work for the bulk of the exhibitors. |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 623
Location: /ARKANSAS | I never have scored any of my horses, I want mine to know when they start in the alley way I want a walk, trot then run. I don't know why I don't like it almost everyone does it and I guess to each his own. |
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 I'm Cooler Offline
Posts: 6387
Location: Pacific Northwest | I didn't read all the replies but that was our rule in 4H too. You didn't have to be at a standstill though and you didn't have to acknowledge with your hand or even be facing the judge, you just had to nod at them. They were always really quick about it here, plus my county arena and our state arena in Puyallup were side gates, so you had to walk your horse in anyway. I always just made eye contact with the judge as soon as I was entering the arena and usually the second the gate was shut it was okay for me to go because even though my horse back then got a little hot (just prancy) he was clearly not out of control.
I don't agree with it, I think it's dumb, speaking as a normal person with normal horses, but most everyone that I grew up gaming with had psycho horses and all they ever did was blow their horses through the pattern (during practice) and there were a couple that were so out of control that they weren't allowed to compete. <-- that is the "idea" behind the rule, they're trying to eliminate the kids that can't control their horses and could get hurt. I think it's flawed, but thats their logic. But like I said, here in my area we had no choice but to walk in the arena anyway because of the side gate. I never saw a judge make someone wait, and I only saw a hand full of kids that were excused from the classes because their horses were deemed dangerous, or the kids kept falling off and clearly couldn't ride the horse.
The one rule that I hated, and they changed it here, was we used to have to stop within a box. That DID sour my horse, he got to where he was shutting down before the line because he was trying to prepare himself to stop inside a box.
Edited by livexlovexrodeo 2015-06-02 1:04 PM
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 Expert
Posts: 1718
Location: Southeast Louisiana | You could state in your rule change suggestion, that under control would include the horse responding to the rider's cues. That way, if the rider is trying to get the horse to walk straight and it's running over people walking sideways, that could clearly be considered out of control.
I expect mine to be able to stop in the alleyway. More than once, I've started down the alley and was told to hold up for a second for whatever reason. No big deal. It happens. I just agree with you that it should not be required of timed event horses to do this. |
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Veteran
Posts: 287
| livexlovexrodeo - 2015-06-02 11:01 AM
I didn't read all the replies but that was our rule in 4H too. You didn't have to be at a standstill though and you didn't have to acknowledge with your hand or even be facing the judge, you just had to nod at them. They were always really quick about it here, plus my county arena and our state arena in Puyallup were side gates, so you had to walk your horse in anyway. I always just made eye contact with the judge as soon as I was entering the arena and usually the second the gate was shut it was okay for me to go because even though my horse back then got a little hot (just prancy) he was clearly not out of control.
I don't agree with it, I think it's dumb, speaking as a normal person with normal horses, but most everyone that I grew up gaming with had psycho horses and all they ever did was blow their horses through the pattern (during practice) and there were a couple that were so out of control that they weren't allowed to compete. <-- that is the "idea" behind the rule, they're trying to eliminate the kids that can't control their horses and could get hurt. I think it's flawed, but thats their logic. But like I said, here in my area we had no choice but to walk in the arena anyway because of the side gate. I never saw a judge make someone wait, and I only saw a hand full of kids that were excused from the classes because their horses were deemed dangerous, or the kids kept falling off and clearly couldn't ride the horse.
The one rule that I hated, and they changed it here, was we used to have to stop within a box. That DID sour my horse, he got to where he was shutting down before the line because he was trying to prepare himself to stop inside a box.
I am also in Washington and am glad there is no stopping in a box anymore either. Glad you also feel it's a flawed rule, being from washington as well. The intent behind it I get, I just think there are better ways to address it |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1131
| I honestly was just going to let this thread just roll off, but I just can't ignore some of these comments.
I have a finished barrel horse. I have rode her since day one of her training. I 'score' her every time we go to an arena. No matter what we are doing. I can be pushing her into that first barrel, but if I tell her to stop, she is sitting on her ass and stopping. That is CONTROL. Before any rider ever gets near a barrel race on any horse, they should be able to stop that horse on a dime. You NEVER know what may happen that you need to immediately stop and get that horse under control.
If you can't walk your horse in the arena and stop and the horse stand relaxed on a loose rein, you have already ruined your horse. That is how I see it.
ETA: I have not read all responses, just a few hit me wrong. This is not positioned at anyone in particular.
Edited by FlyingHigh1454 2015-06-02 4:48 PM
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