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 Jr. Detective
    
Location: Beggs, OK | TXBO - 2015-07-16 12:45 PM oija - 2015-07-16 12:35 PM.... We should not dehumanize her and talk about her like she is an animal at a trough with no human feeling anymore than she should appear to dehumanize the lives of the children that are lost through abortion. Anyone that treats the body parts of a living human being, at any age, as a comodity is an animal.
Lives are not "lost" through abortion...they are taken. | |
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| mcdaniel14 - 2015-07-16 11:01 AM
we watched part of this last night and i am absolutely disgusted PP needs to be defunded! life starts at conception! this lady acts like it is no big deal at all! i am sure that there are plenty of loving families that would love to adopt these innocent babies!
Sorry but your comment disturbs me. I respect you are pro life, but if there are so many families looking to adopt, then why are there so many children in foster homes?
How many children have been removed from families via social services, how many people have been convicted of abusing their own child.
To me abortion can save these unwanted children from a life of pain.
I also have an issue with someone dictating what a woman should do with her body, sometimes pregnancies are undetected till later in pregnancy, I know one person who kept going back to the doc for abdominal cramping, blood and urine pregnancy tests were negative, it wasn't till an abdominal ultrasound confirmed she was 7 months pregnant.
If abortion becomes outlawed, then women have no rights.
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I just read the headlines
Posts: 4483
| cheryl makofka - 2015-07-16 2:24 PM
mcdaniel14 - 2015-07-16 11:01 AM
we watched part of this last night and i am absolutely disgusted PP needs to be defunded! life starts at conception! this lady acts like it is no big deal at all! i am sure that there are plenty of loving families that would love to adopt these innocent babies!
Sorry but your comment disturbs me. I respect you are pro life, but if there are so many families looking to adopt, then why are there so many children in foster homes?
How many children have been removed from families via social services, how many people have been convicted of abusing their own child.
To me abortion can save these unwanted children from a life of pain.
I also have an issue with someone dictating what a woman should do with her body, sometimes pregnancies are undetected till later in pregnancy, I know one person who kept going back to the doc for abdominal cramping, blood and urine pregnancy tests were negative, it wasn't till an abdominal ultrasound confirmed she was 7 months pregnant.
If abortion becomes outlawed, then women have no rights.
I get offended by smart women sinking to the "if you take away my right to abortion, I will lose all my rights" bulls**t. | |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 929
| You know what I would like to know? Why is it that if I go in for a late term abortion that is okay...but if I want a tubal ligation or partial hysterectomy (removing the uterus only) I can't have it? We have the medical knowledge and means...but that is not my right. Because insurance companies say no. Because I "might" want another child even though I am 36 and technically "old" for carrying a baby to term. Because they want to sell me Mirena and birth control pills, etc? I don't want any of that.
Yet I can have 5-6 abortions if I want them, but not REALLY be in control of my reproductive rights. And while I am generally pro-choice if the heartbeat hasn't developed yet, this is disgusting and sad. Those poor little babies. I know any woman who has had a late term abortion through them is now wondering if their baby was harvested like an alien science project. It makes me want to cry, and I am normally pretty unemotional, too. | |
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 Expert
Posts: 5293
| cheryl makofka - 2015-07-16 12:24 PM
mcdaniel14 - 2015-07-16 11:01 AM
we watched part of this last night and i am absolutely disgusted PP needs to be defunded! life starts at conception! this lady acts like it is no big deal at all! i am sure that there are plenty of loving families that would love to adopt these innocent babies!
Sorry but your comment disturbs me. I respect you are pro life, but if there are so many families looking to adopt, then why are there so many children in foster homes?
How many children have been removed from families via social services, how many people have been convicted of abusing their own child.
To me abortion can save these unwanted children from a life of pain.
I also have an issue with someone dictating what a woman should do with her body, sometimes pregnancies are undetected till later in pregnancy, I know one person who kept going back to the doc for abdominal cramping, blood and urine pregnancy tests were negative, it wasn't till an abdominal ultrasound confirmed she was 7 months pregnant.
If abortion becomes outlawed, then women have no rights.
Very true!!! I think we underestimate the number of families wanting to adopt children. There are a lot of adoptable kids out there who will be part of the system until they turn 18. Where are all these people wanting to adopt, standing in line just hoping that a child will become available? | |
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Hungarian Midget Woman
Location: Midwest | Bear - 2015-07-16 1:23 PM What is "traditional sex care"? Am I missing something? Who made that one up? Providing free condoms is now part of "traditional sex care"?
I think she was referring to reproductive health care, of which one part is birth control.
Any sexually active woman or woman after puberty should be seeing a gynecologist for regular health screenings.
Personally, I think they should pay for their own care, but I was answering your question with my opinion of her intended meaning of that statement. | |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 628
Location: Missouri | barrelracr131 - 2015-07-16 2:55 PM
Bear - 2015-07-16 1:23 PM What is "traditional sex care"? Am I missing something? Who made that one up? Providing free condoms is now part of "traditional sex care"?
I think she was referring to reproductive health care, of which one part is birth control.
Any sexually active woman or woman after puberty should be seeing a gynecologist for regular health screenings.
Personally, I think they should pay for their own care, but I was answering your question with my opinion of her intended meaning of that statement.
thank you for clearing that up for me! I would love for everyone to be able to afford their own birth control. Really that would be great, but they can't. I would much rather pay for BC and condoms then some kid and it's mother who live on food stamps and own an iPhone because they are too worthless to work or they know how to work the system. | |
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 Shelter Dog Lover
Posts: 10277
| cheryl makofka - 2015-07-16 2:24 PM mcdaniel14 - 2015-07-16 11:01 AM we watched part of this last night and i am absolutely disgusted PP needs to be defunded! life starts at conception! this lady acts like it is no big deal at all! i am sure that there are plenty of loving families that would love to adopt these innocent babies! Sorry but your comment disturbs me. I respect you are pro life , but if there are so many families looking to adopt, then why are there so many children in foster homes? How many children have been removed from families via social services, how many people have been convicted of abusing their own child. To me abortion can save these unwanted children from a life of pain. I also have an issue with someone dictating what a woman should do with her body, sometimes pregnancies are undetected till later in pregnancy, I know one person who kept going back to the doc for abdominal cramping, blood and urine pregnancy tests were negative, it wasn't till an abdominal ultrasound confirmed she was 7 months pregnant. If abortion becomes outlawed, then women have no rights.
I personally do not believe in abortion but I also believe it is not my right to decide that for someone else. I believe in less government and that applies to personal decisions like abortion. I 100% believe that late term abortions should be against the law.
Edited by rodeomom3 2015-07-16 3:29 PM
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 BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25352
Location: Bastrop, Texas | barrelracr131 - 2015-07-16 2:55 PM
Bear - 2015-07-16 1:23 PM What is "traditional sex care"? Am I missing something? Who made that one up? Providing free condoms is now part of "traditional sex care"?
I think she was referring to reproductive health care, of which one part is birth control.
Any sexually active woman or woman after puberty should be seeing a gynecologist for regular health screenings.
Personally, I think they should pay for their own care, but I was answering your question with my opinion of her intended meaning of that statement.
So why "traditional"? How about "health care" or "women's health care"? This sounds too much like something some RN with an MBA in "health care administration" contrived. Now we have "traditional sex care"? Oyy | |
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25352
Location: Bastrop, Texas | cheryl makofka - 2015-07-16 2:24 PM
mcdaniel14 - 2015-07-16 11:01 AM
we watched part of this last night and i am absolutely disgusted PP needs to be defunded! life starts at conception! this lady acts like it is no big deal at all! i am sure that there are plenty of loving families that would love to adopt these innocent babies!
Sorry but your comment disturbs me. I respect you are pro life, but if there are so many families looking to adopt, then why are there so many children in foster homes?
How many children have been removed from families via social services, how many people have been convicted of abusing their own child.
To me abortion can save these unwanted children from a life of pain.
I also have an issue with someone dictating what a woman should do with her body, sometimes pregnancies are undetected till later in pregnancy, I know one person who kept going back to the doc for abdominal cramping, blood and urine pregnancy tests were negative, it wasn't till an abdominal ultrasound confirmed she was 7 months pregnant.
If abortion becomes outlawed, then women have no rights.
Without abortion, women have no rights? Really? I think a lot of people are crying out that those babies have no rights. What do you say to them?
If a woman is 22 weeks pregnant and her boyfriend shoots her in the abdomen, killing the unborn baby, but not the mom, is that murder? | |
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 Expert
Posts: 3782
Location: Gainesville, TX | Bear - 2015-07-16 1:03 PM
oija - 2015-07-16 12:35 PM
Bear - 2015-07-16 11:55 AM
oija - 2015-07-16 10:31 AM
To get away, just a minute, from the overly emotional appeals and prevent a different perspective. This may have been a poor venue choice or not. Most people are more relaxed over a meal. Plenty of pro lifers like to eat salads and drink wine too. Her meal choices have NOTHING to do with this issue. Many of us watch starving children eat on television or watch people eat on sitcoms and somehow this is not disgusting. If this bothers you, it bothers you that someone who is opposed to your point of view treats it more casually or views the life of a child as valuable for other reasons, like saving the life of a child that has already been born, than what you personally think. You would find the topic disgusting no matter what. You just find it disturbing that she can treat it casually enough that she can discuss it while she eats. What she is eating and honestly the fact that she is eating is IRRELEVANT. Many medical professionals, my mother included as she is a nurse, have strong stomachs and can discuss topics over lunch that might turn many of our stomachs. If you want to discuss the issue, then discuss the issue, not her meal.
That being said. The parents with the premature baby born at 28 weeks that they have prayed and wished for may truly appreciate the fact that these organs are there in the first place to save their son or daughter. A life may be lost and another one saved.
Please just remember these points when you are discussing the issue.
Personally I'm not a fan of abortions. I'm a huge major fan of family planning and handing out condoms like its going out of style. But when we discuss these issues we do a disservice not to consider all sides of the issue with some logic, not just emotion, and to separate out the irrelevant bits. We do not want to be like politicians, throwing out red herrings to distract from the central issue. Frankly a video of heart surgery or a heart transplant, especially from a beating heart cadaver, is also disturbing to many people but it saves lives.
Be against this issue because you hate to see a life, any life, cut short. Don't be against it because the doctor is eating and the procedure is hard to look at.
Handing out condoms is a cheap ploy....a ruse. Condoms are cheap.....go out and buy your own condoms. They hand out condoms so people can talk about how wonderful they are. It's a marketing tool. For that matter, I think birth control, in general, ought to be the responsibility of those who decide they need it. Why should hard working taxpayers be expected to provide free birth control? That money would be much better spent educating idiots on basic communication skills like grammar and spelling, because it would benefit society in general. If someone decides they want to have an abortion, that is their right. They are the ones who will have to live with it. They should also be fully aware that they are terminating life. They should be aware that those unborn babies can perceive pain much earlier than once thought. They should also be aware of how abortions are performed, particularly late term abortions. They need to know that the baby squirms and writhes as the baby is crushed, dismembered, mascerated, and pithed. They need to realize that there's a significant chance they will have to deal with the psychological after effects, possibly for a very long time.
What I found to be most disturbing about this video was how the woman callously described the gruesome technical details while eating. If you don't find that at least a little disturbing, then I have to wonder about you.
For 18 years, as part of a transplant team, I participated in organ procurement on organ donors. Even though their hearts were beating and they looked very much alive, they were brain dead. Without fail, the procedure was conducted as a very solemn procedure. Our behavior and conduct in that operating room was dignified and everyone felt gratified that some family was willing to donate the organs of a loved one. It really is a sight to behold, and nothing illustrates the better angels of our nature, as human beings. Deep inside, in a certain way, we also viewed it as a joyous occasion, because we knew the organs we harvested could save countless lives. The family also found consolation in knowing that their loved one was a hero in death to many people. That provided lasting comfort to them, in an otherwise very sad day. This is why I was appalled with the woman in the video. We conducted ourselves with dignity and respect. We didn't play our usual music, and nobody told jokes. We behaved as if we were under the watchful eye of that donor's family. I'll never forget the imagery of a 12 year old boy who was a donor. As I finished removing his heart, I looked over the drapes at his face, and over at his arm on the IV board. He had fallen out of a treehouse earlier that day. He still had Popsicle stains around his pink lips. He had a bandaid on his hand from a scrape he sustained probably several days earlier. He still had a washable bubblegum tattoo of a cartoon figure on his forearm. He was someone's pride and joy and very much loved. I later met the family and witnessed their joy and sadness at the same time, something a person can find hard to comprehend......until it happens to them.
I would never ever allow a doctor this cold and calloused in my operating room. She wouldn't understand.....she wouldn't fit in.
To the person who can't afford a box of condoms and probably can't afford a kid either or treatment for STDs, that condom may make a real difference. Better a condom than an abortion, cheaper too. And marketing can work. We all became convinced we needed diamond engagement rings because of marketing, silly as that may be. If marketing can make someone use a condom then hallelujah. Taxpayers paying for biirth control is a completely different issue. I never said anything about the government needing to fund it. Private groups can hand these out as easily as public ones.
I totally agree on the point that we should treat any of these issues and any lives connected with them with dignity and respect. I just firmly believe that whether she were eating or not that people who disagree with her views are going to see her as callous due to her tone of voice and opinions. I believe that she has given herself some emotional distance from this procedure as a survival skill and this comes across; it would come across in any context. I think it is more pertinent to talk about the issue and the procedure than her meal.
When we simply attack her as completely disgusting we are engaging in an ad hominem attack, criticizing the person and not the issue. She is not disgusting though her attitude may be. She is a fully developed human being who believes that what she is doing helps other people. Anyone has the right to disagree with her. Don't attack the person, attack the problem. Hate the sin, love the sinner.
We should not dehumanize her and talk about her like she is an animal at a trough with no human feeling anymore than she should appear to dehumanize the lives of the children that are lost through abortion. She would talk about the technical details the same in any context though I am convinced and seem cold thus I still firmly believe that the meal is irrelevant.
You seem to be fixated on the meal. Her eating and swilling wine was part of the imagery. Most if us couldn't do that very easily, given the topic of discussion and her description of the procedure. You are right in that some people can do what she did. Joseph Mengela is one example. I know I couldn't.
If it helps you to focus on the subject, I'd suggest you just forget the meal.
That WAS what I was suggesting. That everyone talk about the issue and not her meal, and then everyone tried to defend the fact that the context of the interview is more important. The whole point is she is going to come across as cold and callous in any interview, period. I just thought the hateful comments about her meal were uncalled for and a distraction from the actual issue.
I hate it when people fall for basic logical fallacies in any type of political discussions. People do it all the time during elections with negative campaigning. Distract everybody with whatever dirt we can dig up on such and such a candidate so that voters don't pay attention to what the candidate thinks about the issue. I frankly don't care if a politician got a BJ or a DUI at 20. I do care what they think about foreign affairs, military spending, and education. I don't care about whether or not this woman was eating; I care about what she thinks and says about abortion and late term abortions more. When we get distracted with the drivel, it keeps us from calling our politicians to order on those things that really need addressed. So when I see someone doing it over any political issue, no matter my personal feelings on the matter, you can be sure I'm going to point it out. I hate it when any group from any side behaves in such a manner. We are better than that. | |
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Expert
Posts: 1343
Location: East Texas | cheryl makofka - 2015-07-16 2:24 PM
mcdaniel14 - 2015-07-16 11:01 AM
we watched part of this last night and i am absolutely disgusted PP needs to be defunded! life starts at conception! this lady acts like it is no big deal at all! i am sure that there are plenty of loving families that would love to adopt these innocent babies!
Sorry but your comment disturbs me. I respect you are pro life, but if there are so many families looking to adopt, then why are there so many children in foster homes?
How many children have been removed from families via social services, how many people have been convicted of abusing their own child.
To me abortion can save these unwanted children from a life of pain.
I also have an issue with someone dictating what a woman should do with her body, sometimes pregnancies are undetected till later in pregnancy, I know one person who kept going back to the doc for abdominal cramping, blood and urine pregnancy tests were negative, it wasn't till an abdominal ultrasound confirmed she was 7 months pregnant.
If abortion becomes outlawed, then women have no rights.
Umm... I believe if abortion was outlawed, women would still have the RIGHT to abstain from sex; use one or more methods of birth control; the right to give up a baby for adoption to someone they believed would raise the baby in a loving home (we all know people like that) or the right to keep it if she decided differently after carrying a baby for 9 months. To say they would have no rights is just wrong.
Also, your comment about "abortion can save these unwanted children from a life of pain" struck me a little odd. You would have to be God to know what kind of life anyone who is born is going to have. There are people all over the world who were born into loving, kind and nurturing families, only to grow up, make bad choices and end up in a life of pain. Who knew they should have been aborted? | |
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 Own It and Move On
Location: The edge of no where | GLP - 2015-07-16 2:37 PM cheryl makofka - 2015-07-16 2:24 PM mcdaniel14 - 2015-07-16 11:01 AM we watched part of this last night and i am absolutely disgusted PP needs to be defunded! life starts at conception! this lady acts like it is no big deal at all! i am sure that there are plenty of loving families that would love to adopt these innocent babies! Sorry but your comment disturbs me. I respect you are pro life, but if there are so many families looking to adopt, then why are there so many children in foster homes? How many children have been removed from families via social services, how many people have been convicted of abusing their own child. To me abortion can save these unwanted children from a life of pain. I also have an issue with someone dictating what a woman should do with her body, sometimes pregnancies are undetected till later in pregnancy, I know one person who kept going back to the doc for abdominal cramping, blood and urine pregnancy tests were negative, it wasn't till an abdominal ultrasound confirmed she was 7 months pregnant. If abortion becomes outlawed, then women have no rights. I get offended by smart women sinking to the "if you take away my right to abortion, I will lose all my rights" bulls**t.
If abortion becomes outlawed, then women have no rights. ~ I've often disagreed with your comments, but typically respect them......... this?? REALLY? They're wanting to do away with late term abortion for goodness' sake!! I am pro-life, I can respect that not everyone is.....but doing away with abortion after a set number of weeks does NOT infringe on anyone's rights. How about MY right about where my tax dollars go as far as funding? I'm being forced to support an organization that goes against MY beliefs. So what about my rights that are currently being infringed upon??? | |
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Hungarian Midget Woman
Location: Midwest | Bear - 2015-07-16 3:36 PM barrelracr131 - 2015-07-16 2:55 PM Bear - 2015-07-16 1:23 PM What is "traditional sex care"? Am I missing something? Who made that one up? Providing free condoms is now part of "traditional sex care"? I think she was referring to reproductive health care, of which one part is birth control.
Any sexually active woman or woman after puberty should be seeing a gynecologist for regular health screenings.
Personally, I think they should pay for their own care, but I was answering your question with my opinion of her intended meaning of that statement. So why "traditional"? How about "health care" or "women's health care"? This sounds too much like something some RN with an MBA in "health care administration" contrived. Now we have "traditional sex care"? Oyy
I think it was just a poor choice of words for reproductive health care. Pap smears, mammograms, what have you | |
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25352
Location: Bastrop, Texas | cheryl makofka - 2015-07-16 2:24 PM
mcdaniel14 - 2015-07-16 11:01 AM
we watched part of this last night and i am absolutely disgusted PP needs to be defunded! life starts at conception! this lady acts like it is no big deal at all! i am sure that there are plenty of loving families that would love to adopt these innocent babies!
Sorry but your comment disturbs me. I respect you are pro life, but if there are so many families looking to adopt, then why are there so many children in foster homes?
How many children have been removed from families via social services, how many people have been convicted of abusing their own child.
To me abortion can save these unwanted children from a life of pain.
I also have an issue with someone dictating what a woman should do with her body, sometimes pregnancies are undetected till later in pregnancy, I know one person who kept going back to the doc for abdominal cramping, blood and urine pregnancy tests were negative, it wasn't till an abdominal ultrasound confirmed she was 7 months pregnant.
If abortion becomes outlawed, then women have no rights.
This notion of abortions saving a child from a life of pain is your assumption, and an arrogant one at that. Who are we to assume that an unwanted baby is doomed to a life of pain? In my opinion, thats a twisted excuse.
I don't think abortion can or even should be outlawed, but I do hate abortion. It should be the mother's choice, but they deserve to be fully informed of exactly what is done, the risks, and possible long term consequences, psychologically. If a woman becomes pregnant and doesn't want the baby, she can give it up for adoption, and she doesn't have to change a single diaper, or wipe a single snotty nose. She can walk away from it, but the good news is she can be proud of the fact that she selflessly allowed that baby to grow and develop inside her for 8-9 months, and her sacrifice saved someone else's life. For the rest of her life, she can find a great deal of pride and consolation knowing that she did this for someone besides herself. One seldom hears this line of thinking these days. All we hear about is cliche's like "women's reproductive rights" and a "woman's right to choose". | |
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 Forever Young
Posts: 6768
Location: relocated to Texas | GLP - 2015-07-17 1:37 PM cheryl makofka - 2015-07-16 2:24 PM mcdaniel14 - 2015-07-16 11:01 AM we watched part of this last night and i am absolutely disgusted PP needs to be defunded! life starts at conception! this lady acts like it is no big deal at all! i am sure that there are plenty of loving families that would love to adopt these innocent babies! Sorry but your comment disturbs me. I respect you are pro life, but if there are so many families looking to adopt, then why are there so many children in foster homes? How many children have been removed from families via social services, how many people have been convicted of abusing their own child. To me abortion can save these unwanted children from a life of pain. I also have an issue with someone dictating what a woman should do with her body, sometimes pregnancies are undetected till later in pregnancy, I know one person who kept going back to the doc for abdominal cramping, blood and urine pregnancy tests were negative, it wasn't till an abdominal ultrasound confirmed she was 7 months pregnant. If abortion becomes outlawed, then women have no rights. I get offended by smart women sinking to the "if you take away my right to abortion, I will lose all my rights" bulls**t.
Amen. You want to talk about rights? What about the rights of these babies who are being murdered? I honestly don't understand a woman who can talk about "her rights" when it comes to abortion, then turn a blind eye to the fact that these babies are being crushed and dismembered. This video was so horrible to me that it defys description. The left has used the "womans right" pitch to sell this bullsh$t. Everyone has rights but the innocent. Makes me want to puke, and cry at the same time. There will be a day when they have to stand before God and explain themselves. I don't think the "I have rights" argument will fly. | |
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Expert
Posts: 3782
Location: Gainesville, TX | TXBO - 2015-07-16 12:48 PM
oija - 2015-07-16 10:31 AM That being said. The parents with the premature baby born at 28 weeks that they have prayed and wished for may truly appreciate the fact that these organs are there in the first place to save their son or daughter.
How can that be? Abortions only remove inviable tissue mass. There can't be any useful developed organs.
Totally unrelated point. You are trying to attack the common argument that abortions are performed because the ones involved do not think it is a 'life,' which might be pertinent except the particular discussion and video under discussion is about late term abortions. In late term abortions certain organs are certainly viable for donation. It is one of the major points the woman addresses. One does not have to think of organs as a commodity at all to recognize the value of needed organs or tissue for another child who needs that organ. I would much rather such organs be obtained in another fashion than late term abortions, but it is certainly part of the argument that people who are in support of late term abortions do use to defend their position. | |
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25352
Location: Bastrop, Texas | oija - 2015-07-16 3:50 PM
Bear - 2015-07-16 1:03 PM
oija - 2015-07-16 12:35 PM
Bear - 2015-07-16 11:55 AM
oija - 2015-07-16 10:31 AM
To get away, just a minute, from the overly emotional appeals and prevent a different perspective. This may have been a poor venue choice or not. Most people are more relaxed over a meal. Plenty of pro lifers like to eat salads and drink wine too. Her meal choices have NOTHING to do with this issue. Many of us watch starving children eat on television or watch people eat on sitcoms and somehow this is not disgusting. If this bothers you, it bothers you that someone who is opposed to your point of view treats it more casually or views the life of a child as valuable for other reasons, like saving the life of a child that has already been born, than what you personally think. You would find the topic disgusting no matter what. You just find it disturbing that she can treat it casually enough that she can discuss it while she eats. What she is eating and honestly the fact that she is eating is IRRELEVANT. Many medical professionals, my mother included as she is a nurse, have strong stomachs and can discuss topics over lunch that might turn many of our stomachs. If you want to discuss the issue, then discuss the issue, not her meal.
That being said. The parents with the premature baby born at 28 weeks that they have prayed and wished for may truly appreciate the fact that these organs are there in the first place to save their son or daughter. A life may be lost and another one saved.
Please just remember these points when you are discussing the issue.
Personally I'm not a fan of abortions. I'm a huge major fan of family planning and handing out condoms like its going out of style. But when we discuss these issues we do a disservice not to consider all sides of the issue with some logic, not just emotion, and to separate out the irrelevant bits. We do not want to be like politicians, throwing out red herrings to distract from the central issue. Frankly a video of heart surgery or a heart transplant, especially from a beating heart cadaver, is also disturbing to many people but it saves lives.
Be against this issue because you hate to see a life, any life, cut short. Don't be against it because the doctor is eating and the procedure is hard to look at.
Handing out condoms is a cheap ploy....a ruse. Condoms are cheap.....go out and buy your own condoms. They hand out condoms so people can talk about how wonderful they are. It's a marketing tool. For that matter, I think birth control, in general, ought to be the responsibility of those who decide they need it. Why should hard working taxpayers be expected to provide free birth control? That money would be much better spent educating idiots on basic communication skills like grammar and spelling, because it would benefit society in general. If someone decides they want to have an abortion, that is their right. They are the ones who will have to live with it. They should also be fully aware that they are terminating life. They should be aware that those unborn babies can perceive pain much earlier than once thought. They should also be aware of how abortions are performed, particularly late term abortions. They need to know that the baby squirms and writhes as the baby is crushed, dismembered, mascerated, and pithed. They need to realize that there's a significant chance they will have to deal with the psychological after effects, possibly for a very long time.
What I found to be most disturbing about this video was how the woman callously described the gruesome technical details while eating. If you don't find that at least a little disturbing, then I have to wonder about you.
For 18 years, as part of a transplant team, I participated in organ procurement on organ donors. Even though their hearts were beating and they looked very much alive, they were brain dead. Without fail, the procedure was conducted as a very solemn procedure. Our behavior and conduct in that operating room was dignified and everyone felt gratified that some family was willing to donate the organs of a loved one. It really is a sight to behold, and nothing illustrates the better angels of our nature, as human beings. Deep inside, in a certain way, we also viewed it as a joyous occasion, because we knew the organs we harvested could save countless lives. The family also found consolation in knowing that their loved one was a hero in death to many people. That provided lasting comfort to them, in an otherwise very sad day. This is why I was appalled with the woman in the video. We conducted ourselves with dignity and respect. We didn't play our usual music, and nobody told jokes. We behaved as if we were under the watchful eye of that donor's family. I'll never forget the imagery of a 12 year old boy who was a donor. As I finished removing his heart, I looked over the drapes at his face, and over at his arm on the IV board. He had fallen out of a treehouse earlier that day. He still had Popsicle stains around his pink lips. He had a bandaid on his hand from a scrape he sustained probably several days earlier. He still had a washable bubblegum tattoo of a cartoon figure on his forearm. He was someone's pride and joy and very much loved. I later met the family and witnessed their joy and sadness at the same time, something a person can find hard to comprehend......until it happens to them.
I would never ever allow a doctor this cold and calloused in my operating room. She wouldn't understand.....she wouldn't fit in.
To the person who can't afford a box of condoms and probably can't afford a kid either or treatment for STDs, that condom may make a real difference. Better a condom than an abortion, cheaper too. And marketing can work. We all became convinced we needed diamond engagement rings because of marketing, silly as that may be. If marketing can make someone use a condom then hallelujah. Taxpayers paying for biirth control is a completely different issue. I never said anything about the government needing to fund it. Private groups can hand these out as easily as public ones.
I totally agree on the point that we should treat any of these issues and any lives connected with them with dignity and respect. I just firmly believe that whether she were eating or not that people who disagree with her views are going to see her as callous due to her tone of voice and opinions. I believe that she has given herself some emotional distance from this procedure as a survival skill and this comes across; it would come across in any context. I think it is more pertinent to talk about the issue and the procedure than her meal.
When we simply attack her as completely disgusting we are engaging in an ad hominem attack, criticizing the person and not the issue. She is not disgusting though her attitude may be. She is a fully developed human being who believes that what she is doing helps other people. Anyone has the right to disagree with her. Don't attack the person, attack the problem. Hate the sin, love the sinner.
We should not dehumanize her and talk about her like she is an animal at a trough with no human feeling anymore than she should appear to dehumanize the lives of the children that are lost through abortion. She would talk about the technical details the same in any context though I am convinced and seem cold thus I still firmly believe that the meal is irrelevant.
You seem to be fixated on the meal. Her eating and swilling wine was part of the imagery. Most if us couldn't do that very easily, given the topic of discussion and her description of the procedure. You are right in that some people can do what she did. Joseph Mengela is one example. I know I couldn't.
If it helps you to focus on the subject, I'd suggest you just forget the meal.
That WAS what I was suggesting. That everyone talk about the issue and not her meal, and then everyone tried to defend the fact that the context of the interview is more important. The whole point is she is going to come across as cold and callous in any interview, period. I just thought the hateful comments about her meal were uncalled for and a distraction from the actual issue.
I hate it when people fall for basic logical fallacies in any type of political discussions. People do it all the time during elections with negative campaigning. Distract everybody with whatever dirt we can dig up on such and such a candidate so that voters don't pay attention to what the candidate thinks about the issue. I frankly don't care if a politician got a BJ or a DUI at 20. I do care what they think about foreign affairs, military spending, and education. I don't care about whether or not this woman was eating; I care about what she thinks and says about abortion and late term abortions more. When we get distracted with the drivel, it keeps us from calling our politicians to order on those things that really need addressed. So when I see someone doing it over any political issue, no matter my personal feelings on the matter, you can be sure I'm going to point it out. I hate it when any group from any side behaves in such a manner. We are better than that.
You can refer to my "hateful comments" and segue into your own personal rules about political discourse, but if anything was "hateful" it was this doctor and her callousness. If you feel my comments were hateful, it is because the video centered around a person who acted in a hateful manner. | |
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25352
Location: Bastrop, Texas | oija - 2015-07-16 4:10 PM
TXBO - 2015-07-16 12:48 PM
oija - 2015-07-16 10:31 AM That being said. The parents with the premature baby born at 28 weeks that they have prayed and wished for may truly appreciate the fact that these organs are there in the first place to save their son or daughter.
How can that be? Abortions only remove inviable tissue mass. There can't be any useful developed organs.
Totally unrelated point. You are trying to attack the common argument that abortions are performed because the ones involved do not think it is a 'life,' which might be pertinent except the particular discussion and video under discussion is about late term abortions. In late term abortions certain organs are certainly viable for donation. It is one of the major points the woman addresses. One does not have to think of organs as a commodity at all to recognize the value of needed organs or tissue for another child who needs that organ. I would much rather such organs be obtained in another fashion than late term abortions, but it is certainly part of the argument that people who are in support of late term abortions do use to defend their position.
You are wrong. These organs were procured for research, not transplantation. We don't use organs from babies that were terminated prematurely in transplantation......not yet anyway. Nobody knowledgeable will say that organs for transplantation is one reason to support late term abortion, because they aren't used for that purpose.
Edited by Bear 2015-07-16 4:29 PM
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 1182
Location: Do I hear Banjos? | " I also have an issue with someone dictating what a woman should do with her body, sometimes pregnancies are undetected till later in pregnancy, I know one person who kept going back to the doc for abdominal cramping, blood and urine pregnancy tests were negative, it wasn't till an abdominal ultrasound confirmed she was 7 months pregnant. If abortion becomes outlawed, then women have no rights."
I cut that section to paste as I wanted to address this statement specifically. While it is unfortunate that the woman did not learn of the pregnancy until the third trimester...that is far too late to be deciding she doesn't want to carry it the rest of the way. A fetus at that stage is VERY developed and about 9 out of ten babies born at that stage survive to go home. Why should the mother's rights be more important than the rights of that life? At this point her choices may rightfully be limited to adoption or raising the child.
I do not personally have an issue with EARLY abortions. But at some point we need to acknowledge that a woman's right to control her body comes with a certain amount of responsibility for her choices. As long as they are sexually active there is a non-zero chance of creating a pregnancy. If that is not wanted...and it occurs...there are consequences. I just don't feel in the case of late term pregnancies that the consequences should be paid by the baby that resulted....especially not once the baby is developed to the point that it is likely to survive if born. | |
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