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Go Get Em!
Posts: 13503
   
Location: OH. IO | Im with cheryl n roxi. Horse needs to be isolated and lanced. We all want to have the ut most faith in our vets....but everybody makes mistakes and mis diagnosis at one time or another. Nobody is perfect. For the sake of your boy...move forward
Edited by jake16 2015-12-28 7:10 PM
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 I Am Always Right
Posts: 4264
 
Location: stray dump capital of the world | When my horses had PF, I consulted 2 different vets before proceeding with anything. I had never dealt with it before, nor heard of it. My regular vet was out of town, so I used a different vet and then followed up with Retama for a second opinion. Both vets told me that the PF would find a path out without lancing. The mares ruptured on their own and the gelding was never in a place where they felt comfortable lancing, and he eventually ruptured on his own. The gelding had 2 doses of Excede. |
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 Georgia Peach
Posts: 8338
Location: Georgia |
I have a question for you guys that say lance it. First off, will the vet be able to tell on the ultrasound if it is pus? And say we dont do an ultrasound and we get the vet to lance it, what happens if its not pus? And then we just have a wound to deal with on top of whatever is causing all this. I really just need to be educated on what else could be in the pockets if its not PF.....
Also, if the fever has subsided with anitbiotics, could it still be PF? |
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 Voice of Reason
Location: NOT at Wal Mart | It's edema, please do not lance it. Stay the course, the antibiotic is doing what it needs to do. Hang in there! |
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 Money Eating Baggage Owner
Posts: 9586
Location: Phoenix | Hmmmm I have nothing to add but prayers and hope it all works out. I would think you would want it to let it burst on its own.....I'm thinking of human pimples when I think about this....you don't want to force popping a zit. Would you want to force this? Random thought! Keeps updated! I'm curious to see what happens. |
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 A Somebody to Everybody
Posts: 41354
Location: Under The Big Sky Of Texas | I would not lance it, I would be wanting a second opinion from a different Vet at this point to rule out pigeon fever, all that swelling would worry the heck out of me and going on a week I would think the swelling would be going down with the meds that hes getting by now. |
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| Runninbay - 2015-12-28 9:58 PM
I have a question for you guys that say lance it. First off, will the vet be able to tell on the ultrasound if it is pus? And say we dont do an ultrasound and we get the vet to lance it, what happens if its not pus? And then we just have a wound to deal with on top of whatever is causing all this. I really just need to be educated on what else could be in the pockets if its not PF.....
Also, if the fever has subsided with anitbiotics, could it still be PF?
A competent vet can tell by ultrasound if the lump is edema, or if it is fluid filled.
A competent vet will not lance it without doing an ultrasound as it would cause unnecessary trauma, the incision will be more inclined to become infected, and take more time to heal as the area is already compromised.
As for what could be in the abscess if it is fluid filled, it could be any bacteria.
Botulism
Strep
Staph
The only way to know is to do a culture
He could have gotten a piece of straw, a stick, anything so small puncture through the skin and you may not have known as it may not have left a mark which then cause an infection
Edited by cheryl makofka 2015-12-28 10:35 PM
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Georgia Peach
Posts: 8338
Location: Georgia |
I'm going to talk to my vet again in the morning and pick her brain about options. I'm betting she will want stick with the original plan of giving the second dose of Excede and go from there. Thank you guys for all the input so far. I really appreciate those of you who have gotten involved with this thread and trying to help me find a solution. I just really want my boy to be happy and healthy again. I will update tomorrow. And of course its raining here again, so another few days of nasty weather seem to be headed our way. Oh what fun..... Night all! |
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Voice of Reason
Location: NOT at Wal Mart | It's called ventral edema, this horse probably has an abcess, the antibotic's are working. I can't believe people challenge the Vet and dang near call him/her incompetent! I'll bet a 6 pack it's not pigeon fever, there is no puss, nothing to lance. The body will absorb the fluid, if it's slow going your vet can prescribe lasix to help the kidneys flush it. IMO your vet is right on. |
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| justcruzin - 2015-12-28 10:46 PM
It's called ventral edema, this horse probably has an abcess, the antibotic's are working. I can't believe people challenge the Vet and dang near call him/her incompetent! I'll bet a 6 pack it's not pigeon fever, there is no puss, nothing to lance. The body will absorb the fluid, if it's slow going your vet can prescribe lasix to help the kidneys flush it. IMO your vet is right on.
Every horse owner should be challenging their vet.
It is the horse owners responsibility to make educated decisions.
I do believe this vet is incompetent as the vet made a diagnosis without objective data to support their diagnosis. It is like your human doctor telling you you have AIDS because you have one symptom, I bet you would challenge your docs diagnosis and treatment plan if you had a serious diagnosis without the objective data.
The most important question a horse owner needs to ask is WHY.
Questions I ask my vet on anything and I suggest all horse owners do the same thing
What is the diagnosis
Where is the evidence to support the diagnosis
Is there any other information you should acquire to verify the diagnosis (xray, ultrasound, blood work, if not already been done)
Prognosis if I do nothing
Suggested treatment plan where is the research to support this plan pros and cons
The goals of the procedure
Projected healing time
Any additional treatment options pros and cons
Quality of life afterwards (rideable, maintaince, competitive, timeline)
I have found if I spend the money the first time, I am not paying the exam fees over and over on top of each additional test, and I save money and time in the long run. |
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Voice of Reason
Location: NOT at Wal Mart | cheryl makofka - 2015-12-28 9:10 PM justcruzin - 2015-12-28 10:46 PM It's called ventral edema, this horse probably has an abcess, the antibotic's are working. I can't believe people challenge the Vet and dang near call him/her incompetent! I'll bet a 6 pack it's not pigeon fever, there is no puss, nothing to lance. The body will absorb the fluid, if it's slow going your vet can prescribe lasix to help the kidneys flush it. IMO your vet is right on. Every horse owner should be challenging their vet. It is the horse owners responsibility to make educated decisions. I do believe this vet is incompetent as the vet made a diagnosis without objective data to support their diagnosis. It is like your human doctor telling you you have AIDS because you have one symptom, I bet you would challenge your docs diagnosis and treatment plan if you had a serious diagnosis without the objective data. The most important question a horse owner needs to ask is WHY. Questions I ask my vet on anything and I suggest all horse owners do the same thing What is the diagnosis Where is the evidence to support the diagnosis Is there any other information you should acquire to verify the diagnosis (xray, ultrasound, blood work, if not already been done ) Prognosis if I do nothing Suggested treatment plan where is the research to support this plan pros and cons The goals of the procedure Projected healing time Any additional treatment options pros and cons Quality of life afterwards (rideable, maintaince, competitive, timeline ) I have found if I spend the money the first time, I am not paying the exam fees over and over on top of each additional test, and I save money and time in the long run.
Edited by justcruzin 2015-12-29 12:29 AM
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 399
| Colorado State University School of Veterinary Medicine has done the most research on dryland distemper, corynebacterium pseudotuberculosis infection commonly known as pigeon fever. It usually manifests in the ventral abdominal area seen in the pictures and is most common in the pectorial area giving it the name pigeon fever because of its resemblance to a pigeon chest. Lymphangitis and internal infection should be treated with longterm antimicrobials (1 mo duration or as directed by follow-up ultrasonography). The organism is susceptible to most commonly administered antimicrobials; HOWEVER, antimicrobial treatment of uncomplicated external abscesses may prolong the disease by delaying abscess maturation. External abscess swellings are treated with hot packs, poultices, or hydrotherapy until they rupture or drained surgically is severe dire cases.So what the internal specialists at CSU advised my veterinarian when my mare had dryland distemper was to let the abscesses come to a head, rupture then flush out the abscesses with a mild diluted antimicrobial solution then start the course of antibiotics. The majority of information pertaining to manifestation of distemper related abscesses is the same as mentioned above. The horse stands a good chance of recurrence of the infection if it is not allowed to manifest and run its course. |
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| justcruzin - 2015-12-29 12:26 AM
cheryl makofka - 2015-12-28 9:10 PM justcruzin - 2015-12-28 10:46 PM It's called ventral edema, this horse probably has an abcess, the antibotic's are working. I can't believe people challenge the Vet and dang near call him/her incompetent! I'll bet a 6 pack it's not pigeon fever, there is no puss, nothing to lance. The body will absorb the fluid, if it's slow going your vet can prescribe lasix to help the kidneys flush it. IMO your vet is right on. Every horse owner should be challenging their vet. It is the horse owners responsibility to make educated decisions. I do believe this vet is incompetent as the vet made a diagnosis without objective data to support their diagnosis. It is like your human doctor telling you you have AIDS because you have one symptom, I bet you would challenge your docs diagnosis and treatment plan if you had a serious diagnosis without the objective data. The most important question a horse owner needs to ask is WHY. Questions I ask my vet on anything and I suggest all horse owners do the same thing What is the diagnosis Where is the evidence to support the diagnosis Is there any other information you should acquire to verify the diagnosis (xray, ultrasound, blood work, if not already been done ) Prognosis if I do nothing Suggested treatment plan where is the research to support this plan pros and cons The goals of the procedure Projected healing time Any additional treatment options pros and cons Quality of life afterwards (rideable, maintaince, competitive, timeline ) I have found if I spend the money the first time, I am not paying the exam fees over and over on top of each additional test, and I save money and time in the long run. There is nothing wrong with staying informed, questioning the diagnosis, prognosis, doing research or getting a second opinion. But to challenge and accuse the Vet of being incompetent is not justified in this case. You know as well as I do sometimes you just can't get an accurate diagnosis (for what ever reason ) and go with what is working. Your advise to lance, culture and insert drains was way off base in this instance. My guess is this horse has an bacterial infection, hence the elevated white count and fever and is responding to antibiotic therapy. If this was my horse I would stay the course. If the horse was not responding, then I would look at a second opinion. The Vet is spot on with the treatment of choice. Excede is a broad spectrum, gram pos and gram neg antibiotic, IMO a good choice. Neither you nor I were there and have access to bloodwork or exam. I support the TX the Vet prescribed. If I'm wrong, I owe someone a 6 pack.
Why I am saying the vet is incompetent is if the vet says the lump is edema and has not done an ultrasound, which it sounds like one has not been done.
Edema is different then an abscess, an abscess will have fluid within, edema is just inflammed tissue, and with the ban amine this horse is getting if it was edema you would have seen a change as banamine is an antiinflammatory.
As I said earlier, if an ultrasound hasn't been done, one needs to be done.
My frustration with vets is this should have been done the first time, now it is just a money grab, each time the op takes the horse back to the vet, 9/10 times she will be charged for the initial exam fee, so that would be 2 unnecessary exam fees if the ultrasound was done on the first visit. Also the hauling of the horse should be kept to a minimal as the more the horse is hauled the more stress it encounters, and if this horse already had laminitis, the stress of hauling while sick can cause another laminitis episode. |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 920
| I have a gelding who a month ago had a belly similar to this. His sheath swelled larger than usual(stays a little on the big size) The swollen area wasn't as large as your guys but it took a little while to go away. I sent pics to the vet since he's over an 1 hr away. I don't think he was running a fever and he seemed fine other that the swelling. He has a very very small hernia. He is also overweight. I would lunge him for a few minutes a day and that seemed the best for it. It went away and he seems fine now. |
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Go Get Em!
Posts: 13503
Location: OH. IO | Hows he doing tonight? |
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 Tried and True
Posts: 21185
Location: Where I am happiest | dk66 - 2015-12-29 8:29 AM Colorado State University School of Veterinary Medicine has done the most research on dryland distemper, corynebacterium pseudotuberculosis infection commonly known as pigeon fever. It usually manifests in the ventral abdominal area seen in the pictures and is most common in the pectorial area giving it the name pigeon fever because of its resemblance to a pigeon chest. Lymphangitis and internal infection should be treated with longterm antimicrobials (1 mo duration or as directed by follow-up ultrasonography). The organism is susceptible to most commonly administered antimicrobials; HOWEVER, antimicrobial treatment of uncomplicated external abscesses may prolong the disease by delaying abscess maturation. External abscess swellings are treated with hot packs, poultices, or hydrotherapy until they rupture or drained surgically is severe dire cases.So what the internal specialists at CSU advised my veterinarian when my mare had dryland distemper was to let the abscesses come to a head, rupture then flush out the abscesses with a mild diluted antimicrobial solution then start the course of antibiotics. The majority of information pertaining to manifestation of distemper related abscesses is the same as mentioned above. The horse stands a good chance of recurrence of the infection if it is not allowed to manifest and run its course.
Winner winner chicken dinner! |
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Georgia Peach
Posts: 8338
Location: Georgia | jake16 - 2015-12-29 7:53 PM Hows he doing tonight?
He is doing good tonight. We took him into the clinic this afternoon and had him checked over by both of the vets (it's a 2 vet clinic, but only 1 has been working his case). The other vet believes we are on the right track since he seems to be responding to the antibiotics. However she thinks we need to do a few more blood tests just to rule some things out. One of the tests was for Cushings due to his lack of muscle tone. Both vets think he is underweight. I will admit that he doesn't have a top line but I don't think he is skinny. It's a long story, but in August he was put on a low sugar diet due to laminitis issues. At the time we were told he was obese and the vet at the university actually scolded us for keeping too much weight on him. And now we are being told he is skinny. In 16 years of owning horses, I have never once been told any of my horses were underweight. So I'll be honest, it kind of hurt to hear that. So on top of having a sick horse, I apparently have a thin horse too. Feeling pretty defeated. |
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Expert
Posts: 2685
| he doesn't look thin to me.... I see the withers but my 6yo has a weak topline. Its the way some horses are built. I don't think I believe the "under weight" thing and I hope they aren't grasping at straws trying to give you an answer. I guess that means they didn't ultrasound :/ |
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A Somebody to Everybody
Posts: 41354
Location: Under The Big Sky Of Texas | Runninbay - 2015-12-28 2:35 PM I made a collage so I would only have to upload one picture lol.
Edited to add: please excuse the black marks. We have been using sharpie to mark the swelling.
This horse does not look thin to me...In fact hes pretty darn healthy looking to me, except for the swelling of course. |
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Georgia Peach
Posts: 8338
Location: Georgia | RoaniePonie11 - 2015-12-29 9:34 PM he doesn't look thin to me.... I see the withers but my 6yo has a weak topline. Its the way some horses are built. I don't think I believe the "under weight" thing and I hope they aren't grasping at straws trying to give you an answer. I guess that means they didn't ultrasound :/
He is built differently and even as a 5 year old, he didn't have great topline. When I used to ride him during the week it definitely improved his overall appearance but anytime he has sat in the pasture for a few months, his topline gets saggy. That's why the vet suggested a Cushings test. But this horse sheds out beautifully every summer so I'm a little skeptical. But it can't hurt to test him at this point. Unfortunately, even the other vet didn't think an ultrasound was necessary. After inspecting the swelling she said its textbook edema. They did say if the antibiotic hasn't brought the swelling down in a week then we will most likely ultrasound. So now we just wait.
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