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Posts: 12842
    
| Equal payout of any ADDED money is quite common here. The entry fees are then divided by a percentage with the greatest amount of that to 1D. What you really need to look at is the amount of your entry fee that is paid back. Sometimes in fine print it will say 50% payback.. The customary payback here is 80%.
There is a monthly barrel racing association around here that has equal payouts and they usually have close to 200 entries at each show with no added money. Around here if the there is a barrel race you will have a big turnout. I would say no one cares about the payout. | |
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  Champ
Posts: 19623
Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm | AllAroundRider - 2016-03-24 1:34 PM
I'm not for it or against it but to the ones saying they re against it because it does away with the drive to get better, the entire concept of divisional races would have already done that if that was true. The whole point of divisional races is to increase entries, allow people at all levels to compete and pontential recover some of their entries/expenses, and grow the sport, which clearly it has. If having equal payout races increases the number of entries which will also increase the payout for everyone why not? I don't think too many 1d riders are going to skip a race they can win $1500 at but it be equal payout to go to a progressive payout race and win $700; not very smart business. Also, I have yet to see anybody make a living winning the 3d and fewer yet that aren't trying their best to improve and move up.
Actually the reason behind the D system is to stop people from cheating the novice system that was in place before. The whole idea of barrel racing is to get better and work your way up. We used to get our young horses trained and start hauling them when they were ready. Since they were 'virgins" so to speak we started out running novice classes. Some of these horses were running open times when they first hit the pen. They quickly worked their way through the novice class system into the open. But there were always horses working their way up outrunning the horses who were professional $500 novice horses. Consequently, the people who were stuck in the novice classes for a long time got outrun in their own class. It sucks to try so hard and fight that system. I get that. It doesn't mean the 3 or 4D should get the same money as the 1D winner.
So the fact that the novice class combinations (horse & rider) are NOW able to win a bigger portion of the pot is already a big improvement over the old novice system for their pocketbook where they paid entry fees and got nothing. That's very discouraging. The side effect of people with horses or ability that can't or won't do what it takes to get better is that a horse that can run 3D or worse still has a market value to someone who is satisfied with that level. I'm not saying that's a bad thing. Some people are unwilling or incapable through no fault of their own to improve. That's fine and I applaud them for enjoying the sport. But it doesn't mean they should win the same amount as a 1D rider/horse combo.
I've never paid more than 5K for a prospect. Most were way less than that. I made some nice horses because I worked at it. I sacrificed other things other people were doing because I went home from school or work to ride. This was important to me. I went to clinics to learn better horsemanship. I learned how to take care of them and ride/train them to get what they had to give. Sometimes it means moving on to a different horse. There is a very small percentage of horses that are capable of winning the 1D. I can't really believe that if someone wants to work at it, really do what it takes they can't get faster, unless they have a physical or mental issue that prevents it. I've seen time after time where a horse is a 3D horse with one rider and a 1D horse with a different rider. That proves my point. But, I don't want them to quit. On the contrary.
But they shouldn't get the same payout as the 1D horse/rider combo.  | |
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Miss Southern Sunshine
Posts: 7427
Location: South Central Florida | rockette - 2016-03-24 4:44 PM If you don't mind then go, if you do, then don't. Easy.
TOTALLY agree with this. I don't understand the fierce arguments. There are a ton of races, plenty of room for both. If you like it, GO, if you don't, DON'T GO. Enjoy the ones you do go to!!! | |
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 Expert
Posts: 1898
| Swannranch - 2016-03-25 11:12 AM
rockette - 2016-03-24 4:44 PM If you don't mind then go, if you do, then don't. Easy.
TOTALLY agree with this. I don't understand the fierce arguments. There are a ton of races, plenty of room for both. If you like it, GO, if you don't, DON'T GO. Enjoy the ones you do go to!!!
I think the "fierce arguments" are in answer to the question from the original OP when they asked if people like equal payout or not. | |
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Champ
Posts: 19623
Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm | Swannranch - 2016-03-25 9:12 AM
rockette - 2016-03-24 4:44 PM If you don't mind then go, if you do, then don't. Easy.
TOTALLY agree with this. I don't understand the fierce arguments. There are a ton of races, plenty of room for both. If you like it, GO, if you don't, DON'T GO. Enjoy the ones you do go to!!!
We're practicing our debating/persuasive skills. Or possibly bringing someone back from the brink of socialism. Who knows. LOL  | |
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Expert
Posts: 1956
Location: Ky | I remember when the D system was started. I competed in one of the first if not the first one. It was in Portland, Tn. The guy that started it based it on the ET racing that had invaded drag racing. it was a crock for drag racing and it is for barrel racing. Main reason he started it was because Rooster and Bubba Pedigo was destrying all the barrel races and people couldn't get close to them.
But his intent was also that there could be one barrel race for the youth and beginners and seasoned vets vs having several barrel races for those different levels. And people could win money while they were learning and advancing. It was never his intent that people would stay in the D's and wish to be in the lower D's. It was 3D then with 1 second splits. This was the early 80's when the NBHA was just a twinkle in Talmadge's eye.
Portland is not far from Nashville so that became the hub of the D's. And it spread from there. Especially with the advent of the NBHA and they adopted the D system.
The equal pay in that area came much later but that is how it is in the Nashville, Tn region today. I doubt you could have a barrel race or pole bending in that area that's not equal pay and have a turnout.
I think it's as wrong as wrong can be but they will argue that point fircely if you tell them that. I gave up arguing it with them. But I have never changed my mind about it. The person that wins the 1D should get more money than the person that wins the 2, 3 and 4D's.
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1165
Location: California | cyount2009 - 2016-03-25 10:20 AM
Swannranch - 2016-03-25 11:12 AM
rockette - 2016-03-24 4:44 PM If you don't mind then go, if you do, then don't. Easy.
TOTALLY agree with this. I don't understand the fierce arguments. There are a ton of races, plenty of room for both. If you like it, GO, if you don't, DON'T GO. Enjoy the ones you do go to!!!
I think the "fierce arguments" are in answer to the question from the original OP when they asked if people like equal payout or not.
I agree. Don't like it don't go. Im running my mare and so far haven't made it out of 4D. She may make it to 3D when we work out some kinks. Will she ever be 1D? Nope. I still pour blood, sweat, and tears into training and improving myself and my horse. I can't afford another horse right now and won't sell this mare. I have to get "lucky" and pull a check or I can't keep going. There are different division so comparing a 1D horse to a lower division horse simply isn't fair. They have different divisions in place so I feel the fastest horse in each division deserves some credit. Sure the 1D horse ran the fastest time in their division. Don't like equal payout don't go. Equal payment helps me keep going and I feel its a bit more fair in the sense that it recognizes each division is just as important as the next. If all the lower divisions didnt show up there would be much payout for the 1D anyways. | |
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 Expert
Posts: 1857
| Serenity06 - 2016-03-25 11:48 AM
cyount2009 - 2016-03-25 10:20 AM
Swannranch - 2016-03-25 11:12 AM
rockette - 2016-03-24 4:44 PM If you don't mind then go, if you do, then don't. Easy.
TOTALLY agree with this. I don't understand the fierce arguments. There are a ton of races, plenty of room for both. If you like it, GO, if you don't, DON'T GO. Enjoy the ones you do go to!!!
I think the "fierce arguments" are in answer to the question from the original OP when they asked if people like equal payout or not.
I agree. Don't like it don't go. Im running my mare and so far haven't made it out of 4D. She may make it to 3D when we work out some kinks. Will she ever be 1D? Nope. I still pour blood, sweat, and tears into training and improving myself and my horse. I can't afford another horse right now and won't sell this mare. I have to get "lucky" and pull a check or I can't keep going. There are different division so comparing a 1D horse to a lower division horse simply isn't fair. They have different divisions in place so I feel the fastest horse in each division deserves some credit. Sure the 1D horse ran the fastest time in their division. Don't like equal payout don't go. Equal payment helps me keep going and I feel its a bit more fair in the sense that it recognizes each division is just as important as the next. If all the lower divisions didnt show up there would be much payout for the 1D anyways.
The most important D is the 1D, every other division is based on the fastest horse of the day. All the other D winners should thank the 1D winner because with out that run they may not have had any money at all! | |
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 I Don't Brag
Posts: 6960
| FlyingJT - 2016-03-25 10:08 AM
NFM - 2016-03-25 9:55 AM
I don't care about the payout, because I have an open horse and green ones. Being in the lower D's allows me to compete against myself.
As stated earlier, I love the fact that a nice slower horse can be worth decent money. Or the older fancy horse still has place other than the pasture once it is past it's prime. I'm very thankful for this because it was awful (back when...) you would spend years on a horse only to find out they couldn't quite cut the mustard and end up with nothing.
when they came up with the D's, they did a great thing for the barrel horse market...
This, IMO was the biggest reason the divisional races were formed. You had a small group of top trainers and riders who could only get their hands on a limited number of top horses to make and a lot of mediocre ones. They found that the number of people willing to pay good money for the mediocre ones from a "name" was limited so they started the divisional races. I remember attending a presentation at Quarter Horse Congress years and years ago, and that was my first thought then and I have not changed my opinion.
It may have helped the "market" but it sure has hurt those of us with limited funds wanting to buy/make a good horse. Can't say it's hurt or helped me personally in selling horses because I can't sell ice to a thirsty rich man in the desert in the middle of summer. | |
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 Ms. Elvis
Posts: 9606
Location: Running barrels or watching nascar | 3canstorun - 2016-03-25 6:30 AM
While I am not a 1D rider, I don't expect equal payouts. However, Pac West is starting a new program at their April race in Ocala. A 3/4D slot race. They appreciate the fact that people of all stages come to their shows. So they started this. Hopefully, it will work and give them more success.
Me, really and truly, if you beat me fair and square, I don't care. You obviously had a better horse and rode better then I do. I just hate cheating.
I ran in a 3D/4D slot race in CO. No 1D/2D riders were allowed. | |
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Ms. Elvis
Posts: 9606
Location: Running barrels or watching nascar | OregonBR - 2016-03-25 9:11 AM
AllAroundRider - 2016-03-24 1:34 PM
I'm not for it or against it but to the ones saying they re against it because it does away with the drive to get better, the entire concept of divisional races would have already done that if that was true. The whole point of divisional races is to increase entries, allow people at all levels to compete and pontential recover some of their entries/expenses, and grow the sport, which clearly it has. If having equal payout races increases the number of entries which will also increase the payout for everyone why not? I don't think too many 1d riders are going to skip a race they can win $1500 at but it be equal payout to go to a progressive payout race and win $700; not very smart business. Also, I have yet to see anybody make a living winning the 3d and fewer yet that aren't trying their best to improve and move up.
Actually the reason behind the D system is to stop people from cheating the novice system that was in place before. The whole idea of barrel racing is to get better and work your way up. We used to get our young horses trained and start hauling them when they were ready. Since they were 'virgins" so to speak we started out running novice classes. Some of these horses were running open times when they first hit the pen. They quickly worked their way through the novice class system into the open. But there were always horses working their way up outrunning the horses who were professional $500 novice horses. Consequently, the people who were stuck in the novice classes for a long time got outrun in their own class. It sucks to try so hard and fight that system. I get that. It doesn't mean the 3 or 4D should get the same money as the 1D winner.
So the fact that the novice class combinations (horse & rider ) are NOW able to win a bigger portion of the pot is already a big improvement over the old novice system for their pocketbook where they paid entry fees and got nothing. That's very discouraging. The side effect of people with horses or ability that can't or won't do what it takes to get better is that a horse that can run 3D or worse still has a market value to someone who is satisfied with that level. I'm not saying that's a bad thing. Some people are unwilling or incapable through no fault of their own to improve. That's fine and I applaud them for enjoying the sport. But it doesn't mean they should win the same amount as a 1D rider/horse combo.
I've never paid more than 5K for a prospect. Most were way less than that. I made some nice horses because I worked at it. I sacrificed other things other people were doing because I went home from school or work to ride. This was important to me. I went to clinics to learn better horsemanship. I learned how to take care of them and ride/train them to get what they had to give. Sometimes it means moving on to a different horse. There is a very small percentage of horses that are capable of winning the 1D. I can't really believe that if someone wants to work at it, really do what it takes they can't get faster, unless they have a physical or mental issue that prevents it. I've seen time after time where a horse is a 3D horse with one rider and a 1D horse with a different rider. That proves my point. But, I don't want them to quit. On the contrary.
But they shouldn't get the same payout as the 1D horse/rider combo.
I took three different horses through the novice system and graduated them all because of the high-money D races. | |
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Ms. Elvis
Posts: 9606
Location: Running barrels or watching nascar | Swannranch - 2016-03-25 9:12 AM
rockette - 2016-03-24 4:44 PM If you don't mind then go, if you do, then don't. Easy.
TOTALLY agree with this. I don't understand the fierce arguments. There are a ton of races, plenty of room for both. If you like it, GO, if you don't, DON'T GO. Enjoy the ones you do go to!!!
I don't see an argument. | |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1165
Location: California | I never said the 1D runners weren't important. I simply said ALL divisions are important. | |
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Expert
Posts: 1543
Location: MI | 3canstorun - 2016-03-25 9:30 AM
While I am not a 1D rider, I don't expect equal payouts. However, Pac West is starting a new program at their April race in Ocala. A 3/4D slot race. They appreciate the fact that people of all stages come to their shows. So they started this. Hopefully, it will work and give them more success.
Me, really and truly, if you beat me fair and square, I don't care. You obviously had a better horse and rode better then I do. I just hate cheating.
I went to a barrel race here 2 weeks ago that had a target race with buckle award - to the rider with the most consistent times over 2 days. Interesting concept! | |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 926
| As someone that's been around long before the D races, it's interesting to see this post along with the comments. Time was, you'd have a barrel race and if 30 showed up it was a good turnout, and I live in North Texas where there's a barrel race about every 30 minuts. Yes, the fastest horse won as well as maybe the 2nd or 3rd fastest.....but with 30 entires big purses just weren't there. Added money was rare.
Then, the D system arrived, which at first I thought was the dumbest idea I had ever heard of. But, races started drawing 2, 4, 6 times as many entires as before. Guess what happened to those that won the 1D...they got a lot more money just by virtue of volume. At a big race probably what 90 or 95% of the people fall outside the 1D, so who's setting the bar for the payout? It's not the 1D folks.
I have hit the 1D, even won it a few times at smaller races of 50 or 60. Most races do pay out more for the 1D folks, and at the next race the same pair may be in the 2D. So call it what you want, barrel racing socialism, or I'm the best 'today' and I deserve it or whatever you want to call it. But if it wasn't for the rest of us, even with equal pay out, the 1D would pay about 1/4 of what it used to.
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 Own It and Move On
Location: The edge of no where | barrelracer1983 - 2016-03-25 1:07 PM 3canstorun - 2016-03-25 6:30 AM While I am not a 1D rider, I don't expect equal payouts. However, Pac West is starting a new program at their April race in Ocala. A 3/4D slot race. They appreciate the fact that people of all stages come to their shows. So they started this. Hopefully, it will work and give them more success.
Me, really and truly, if you beat me fair and square, I don't care. You obviously had a better horse and rode better then I do. I just hate cheating.
I ran in a 3D/4D slot race in CO. No 1D/2D riders were allowed.
How did they decide who was eligible to enter? It seems like it would be tricky because it's not just the rider, it depends on what horse they're riding?
IDK -my mind shoots back to the novice classes and how many people cheated the system there. (Don't think they won't lie about entries). | |
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Own It and Move On
Location: The edge of no where | OregonBR - 2016-03-25 11:22 AM Swannranch - 2016-03-25 9:12 AM rockette - 2016-03-24 4:44 PM If you don't mind then go, if you do, then don't. Easy. TOTALLY agree with this. I don't understand the fierce arguments. There are a ton of races, plenty of room for both. If you like it, GO, if you don't, DON'T GO. Enjoy the ones you do go to!!! We're practicing our debating/persuasive skills. Or possibly bringing someone back from the brink of socialism. Who knows. LOL
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Ms. Elvis
Posts: 9606
Location: Running barrels or watching nascar | MS2011 - 2016-03-26 9:25 AM
barrelracer1983 - 2016-03-25 1:07 PM 3canstorun - 2016-03-25 6:30 AM While I am not a 1D rider, I don't expect equal payouts. However, Pac West is starting a new program at their April race in Ocala. A 3/4D slot race. They appreciate the fact that people of all stages come to their shows. So they started this. Hopefully, it will work and give them more success.
Me, really and truly, if you beat me fair and square, I don't care. You obviously had a better horse and rode better then I do. I just hate cheating.
I ran in a 3D/4D slot race in CO. No 1D/2D riders were allowed.
IDK -my mind shoots back to the novice classes and how many people cheated the system there. (Don't think they won't lie about entries).
Evaluations and research. They looked at your winning record if you will. With barrelracingreport.com and Equi-Stat, it's almost easy to look someone up. | |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1131
| Ok, I didn't read all of the comments because it started irritating me with politics being brought in (seriously? So STUPID).
I used to run a solid paint horse (horse in my profile picture), the first real barrel horse I'd ever rode, and I was training her myself (ZERO barrel anything before we got her). She was a 4yo, rough past, with a new rider. I'm sure people thought it was hilarious watching us try to get around the pattern at a slow lope. But I didn't care, I was happy enough to place in the 4D, even if it was only $15 at times.
Flash forward 4 years, and this same horse and rider won a state top 10 award in the 2D, I was just as proud of my horse to be winning in the 2D as I was when she was placing in the 4D. Sure, the money was better up there, but it wasn't the point.
If you are in these 4D races for the money, you are in the wrong part of the sport. That's not the point of the 4D race. I've been to over 200 barrel races with this horse, and I can count the amount of times I've made my money back on two hands (7, to be exact). But that doesn't matter to me. If it mattered, I'd be running a top papered, bought trained $20,000 horse - not the horse we traded a western pleasure reject for, who had no training at all, and who has papers that has literally no barrel horses anywhere.
What is the point to this monologue, you might ask?
The point is, why do people feel that the amount of money you earn is indicative of being better than anyone else? I would never say that the people in the 1D were better than us just because they win more money. We worked harder than them to be there, we worked harder than them to stay there.
Saying someone is worse than someone else just because they earn less money? That is just wrong. It takes zero effort to jump on a trained horse and win. Anyone can do that. It's those horses that are hard to ride, who don't just do it themselves, those prove the real riders. It's those guys who can be asked to get on a problem horse they have never rode before, and make a nice run on it, those are the real riders.
Money should not be the sole reason you barrel race. If it is, I'm afraid that you are in the wrong area at the 4Ds. | |
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 Shelter Dog Lover
Posts: 10277
| FlyingHigh1454 - 2016-03-26 1:02 PM Ok, I didn't read all of the comments because it started irritating me with politics being brought in (seriously? So STUPID). I used to run a solid paint horse (horse in my profile picture), the first real barrel horse I'd ever rode, and I was training her myself (ZERO barrel anything before we got her). She was a 4yo, rough past, with a new rider. I'm sure people thought it was hilarious watching us try to get around the pattern at a slow lope. But I didn't care, I was happy enough to place in the 4D, even if it was only $15 at times. Flash forward 4 years, and this same horse and rider won a state top 10 award in the 2D, I was just as proud of my horse to be winning in the 2D as I was when she was placing in the 4D. Sure, the money was better up there, but it wasn't the point. If you are in these 4D races for the money, you are in the wrong part of the sport. That's not the point of the 4D race. I've been to over 200 barrel races with this horse, and I can count the amount of times I've made my money back on two hands (7, to be exact). But that doesn't matter to me. If it mattered, I'd be running a top papered, bought trained $20,000 horse - not the horse we traded a western pleasure reject for, who had no training at all, and who has papers that has literally no barrel horses anywhere. What is the point to this monologue, you might ask? The point is, why do people feel that the amount of money you earn is indicative of being better than anyone else? I would never say that the people in the 1D were better than us just because they win more money. We worked harder than them to be there, we worked harder than them to stay there. Saying someone is worse than someone else just because they earn less money? That is just wrong. It takes zero effort to jump on a trained horse and win. Anyone can do that. It's those horses that are hard to ride, who don't just do it themselves, those prove the real riders. It's those guys who can be asked to get on a problem horse they have never rode before, and make a nice run on it, those are the real riders. Money should not be the sole reason you barrel race. If it is, I'm afraid that you are in the wrong area at the 4Ds. I have to disagree about any one can jump on a trained horse and win, been there done that-did not win lol. I started riding my girls 1D horses when they quit riding, I turned them into very expensive 3D horses. I am having a blast though and enjoying the game. It takes a skill set I do not have and don't expect to ever have to ride those 1D hard turning winning horses. There are plenty of 1D horses that were made at home, not bought trained and ready to go. They also put years of sweat and training to get where they are.
Edited by rodeomom3 2016-03-26 7:29 PM
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