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Location: Not Where I Want to Be | Blake Russell - 2016-04-19 5:11 PM Most of us believe in breeding programs that are validated with proof. That is why we see certain pedigrees demonstrated repeatedly in elite performance horses. Cloning is not for those who do not believe that elite genetics are not a key element of an outstanding individual. A clone of Latte will breed as if he were Latte himself (had Latte remained a stallion). That is independent of his personal performance. Performance is a function of genetics x environment and the genotype is the same from donor to cloned horse. It is difficult to intelligently argue against the genetic potential of a proven winner (clone or not). Still many variables left to observe. If the clone competes, then we have 2x the data with same genotype and different environments to evaluate the genetics. If the clone does not compete, then we have only the data generated by the original performance (similar to what we might have on a competing stallion that retires to the breeding shed). If you pay attention to pedigrees and find them meaningful, then you intuitively understand the power of cloning. If you select horses based on phenotype alone with no interest in pedigree, then you are not likely still reading this comment. Of course, one can fully understand the technical issue and still dislike the technology for other reasons. Some will choose to leverage knowledge and blaze a different trail. I think there are likely multiple intelligent ways to achieve a worthy goal and I enjoy the diversity of routes. One thing is for certain, all of us love a strong, healthy, gorgeous foal and they often represent great promise to all of us. I can’t wait to lay my eyes on this guy later this week because I have the advantage of knowing that his identical twin (Latte) has demonstrated the power of the genetics in this hopeful future star.
Blake just tolt y'all you wuz stoopid cause you didn't understand jinetecs
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Extreme Veteran
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Location: Kansas and loving it | 1DSoon - 2016-04-19 4:14 PM
Blake Russell - 2016-04-19 5:11 PM Most of us believe in breeding programs that are validated with proof. That is why we see certain pedigrees demonstrated repeatedly in elite performance horses. Cloning is not for those who do not believe that elite genetics are not a key element of an outstanding individual. A clone of Latte will breed as if he were Latte himself (had Latte remained a stallion). That is independent of his personal performance. Performance is a function of genetics x environment and the genotype is the same from donor to cloned horse. It is difficult to intelligently argue against the genetic potential of a proven winner (clone or not). Still many variables left to observe. If the clone competes, then we have 2x the data with same genotype and different environments to evaluate the genetics. If the clone does not compete, then we have only the data generated by the original performance (similar to what we might have on a competing stallion that retires to the breeding shed). If you pay attention to pedigrees and find them meaningful, then you intuitively understand the power of cloning. If you select horses based on phenotype alone with no interest in pedigree, then you are not likely still reading this comment. Of course, one can fully understand the technical issue and still dislike the technology for other reasons. Some will choose to leverage knowledge and blaze a different trail. I think there are likely multiple intelligent ways to achieve a worthy goal and I enjoy the diversity of routes. One thing is for certain, all of us love a strong, healthy, gorgeous foal and they often represent great promise to all of us. I can’t wait to lay my eyes on this guy later this week because I have the advantage of knowing that his identical twin (Latte) has demonstrated the power of the genetics in this hopeful future star.
 Blake just tolt y'all you wuz stoopid cause you didn't understand jinetecs Â
Actually, Blake just proved my point. |
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Location: Not Where I Want to Be | rockette - 2016-04-19 5:18 PM 1DSoon - 2016-04-19 4:14 PM Blake Russell - 2016-04-19 5:11 PM Most of us believe in breeding programs that are validated with proof. That is why we see certain pedigrees demonstrated repeatedly in elite performance horses. Cloning is not for those who do not believe that elite genetics are not a key element of an outstanding individual. A clone of Latte will breed as if he were Latte himself (had Latte remained a stallion). That is independent of his personal performance. Performance is a function of genetics x environment and the genotype is the same from donor to cloned horse. It is difficult to intelligently argue against the genetic potential of a proven winner (clone or not). Still many variables left to observe. If the clone competes, then we have 2x the data with same genotype and different environments to evaluate the genetics. If the clone does not compete, then we have only the data generated by the original performance (similar to what we might have on a competing stallion that retires to the breeding shed). If you pay attention to pedigrees and find them meaningful, then you intuitively understand the power of cloning. If you select horses based on phenotype alone with no interest in pedigree, then you are not likely still reading this comment. Of course, one can fully understand the technical issue and still dislike the technology for other reasons. Some will choose to leverage knowledge and blaze a different trail. I think there are likely multiple intelligent ways to achieve a worthy goal and I enjoy the diversity of routes. One thing is for certain, all of us love a strong, healthy, gorgeous foal and they often represent great promise to all of us. I can’t wait to lay my eyes on this guy later this week because I have the advantage of knowing that his identical twin (Latte) has demonstrated the power of the genetics in this hopeful future star. Blake just tolt y'all you wuz stoopid cause you didn't understand jinetecs
Actually, Blake just proved my point.
Do you even Phenotype?
Sorry, feeling out of sorts today.
But what blake said is you base your breeding decisions on solely performance(phenotype) then you are stoopid.(not really but I like typing that)
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Extreme Veteran
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Location: Kansas and loving it | 1DSoon - 2016-04-19 4:25 PM
rockette - 2016-04-19 5:18 PM 1DSoon - 2016-04-19 4:14 PM Blake Russell - 2016-04-19 5:11 PM Most of us believe in breeding programs that are validated with proof. That is why we see certain pedigrees demonstrated repeatedly in elite performance horses. Cloning is not for those who do not believe that elite genetics are not a key element of an outstanding individual. A clone of Latte will breed as if he were Latte himself (had Latte remained a stallion). That is independent of his personal performance. Performance is a function of genetics x environment and the genotype is the same from donor to cloned horse. It is difficult to intelligently argue against the genetic potential of a proven winner (clone or not). Still many variables left to observe. If the clone competes, then we have 2x the data with same genotype and different environments to evaluate the genetics. If the clone does not compete, then we have only the data generated by the original performance (similar to what we might have on a competing stallion that retires to the breeding shed). If you pay attention to pedigrees and find them meaningful, then you intuitively understand the power of cloning. If you select horses based on phenotype alone with no interest in pedigree, then you are not likely still reading this comment. Of course, one can fully understand the technical issue and still dislike the technology for other reasons. Some will choose to leverage knowledge and blaze a different trail. I think there are likely multiple intelligent ways to achieve a worthy goal and I enjoy the diversity of routes. One thing is for certain, all of us love a strong, healthy, gorgeous foal and they often represent great promise to all of us. I can’t wait to lay my eyes on this guy later this week because I have the advantage of knowing that his identical twin (Latte) has demonstrated the power of the genetics in this hopeful future star.  Blake just tolt y'all you wuz stoopid cause you didn't understand jinetecsÂ
 Actually, Blake just proved my point.
Sorry, feeling out of sorts today.Â
But what blake said is you base your breeding decisions on solely performance(phenotype) then you are stoopid.(not really but I like typing that)Â
Â
He just stated they had no data on a clone in competition. So there is no way to predict if competing on a clone would adversely affect his stud fee. |
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Location: Not Where I Want to Be | This is like herding cats.
COngrats, you have defeated me.
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 557
Location: Kansas and loving it | 1DSoon - 2016-04-19 4:30 PMThis is like herding cats.
COngrats, you have defeated me.Â
 I am not trying to defeat you. I think that you are speaking in regards to cloning a horse with great breeding genetics. I am talking about if someone decided to compete on the clone I don't think it would affect the stud fee any different if they didn't ride.
Edited by rockette 2016-04-19 4:35 PM
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 Cute Little Imp
Posts: 2747
Location: N Texas | rockette - 2016-04-19 4:33 PM
1DSoon - 2016-04-19 4:30 PMThis is like herding cats.
COngrats, you have defeated me.Â
 I am not trying to defeat you. I think that you are speaking in regards to cloning a horse with great breeding genetics. I am talking about if someone decided to compete on the clone I don't think it would affect the stud fee any different if they didn't ride.
So you honestly believe that if Clayton went to the barrel pen and couldn't even pull a 5D check, that he would still command the same stud fee that he does right now? |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 851
Location: West Texas | 1DSoon - 2016-04-19 4:14 PM
Blake Russell - 2016-04-19 5:11 PM Most of us believe in breeding programs that are validated with proof. That is why we see certain pedigrees demonstrated repeatedly in elite performance horses. Cloning is not for those who do not believe that elite genetics are not a key element of an outstanding individual. A clone of Latte will breed as if he were Latte himself (had Latte remained a stallion). That is independent of his personal performance. Performance is a function of genetics x environment and the genotype is the same from donor to cloned horse. It is difficult to intelligently argue against the genetic potential of a proven winner (clone or not). Still many variables left to observe. If the clone competes, then we have 2x the data with same genotype and different environments to evaluate the genetics. If the clone does not compete, then we have only the data generated by the original performance (similar to what we might have on a competing stallion that retires to the breeding shed). If you pay attention to pedigrees and find them meaningful, then you intuitively understand the power of cloning. If you select horses based on phenotype alone with no interest in pedigree, then you are not likely still reading this comment. Of course, one can fully understand the technical issue and still dislike the technology for other reasons. Some will choose to leverage knowledge and blaze a different trail. I think there are likely multiple intelligent ways to achieve a worthy goal and I enjoy the diversity of routes. One thing is for certain, all of us love a strong, healthy, gorgeous foal and they often represent great promise to all of us. I can’t wait to lay my eyes on this guy later this week because I have the advantage of knowing that his identical twin (Latte) has demonstrated the power of the genetics in this hopeful future star.
 Blake just tolt y'all you wuz stoopid cause you didn't understand jinetecs Â
Blake puts too much faith in the science of genetics. True horsemen put faith in the art of breeding. If he truly believes that the clone will produce as if Latte were left a stallion then he doesn't believe in nature the way I do. But that is probably because I am an uneducated knuckle dragger. This is one time, not sure if there are others or not, that 1D and myself are in agreement.
I do indeed value genetics, but I am also a big believer in hybrid vigor and other intangibles. Even going so far as to say that natural breeding and even pasture breeding can produce stronger physical foals than the science of AI, by the natural selection of stronger, healthier, and thus more potent semen reaching the target more often. Cloning further dilutes this survival of the fittest that nature has created. I completely believe there is more to every being than genetics or even DNA analysis can quantify. |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1131
| Gunner11 - 2016-04-19 5:52 PM
rockette - 2016-04-19 4:33 PM
1DSoon - 2016-04-19 4:30 PMThis is like herding cats.
COngrats, you have defeated me.Â
 I am not trying to defeat you. I think that you are speaking in regards to cloning a horse with great breeding genetics. I am talking about if someone decided to compete on the clone I don't think it would affect the stud fee any different if they didn't ride.
So you honestly believe that if Clayton went to the barrel pen and couldn't even pull a 5D check, that he would still command the same stud fee that he does right now?
lol from the looks of it, he isn't even getting that stud fee now since there doesn't seem to be any hitting the ground. |
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  That's White "Man" to You
Posts: 5515
| NJJ - 2016-04-19 2:46 PM rockette - 2016-04-19 2:36 PM 1DSoon - 2016-04-19 2:30 PM rockette - 2016-04-19 3:18 PM 1DSoon - 2016-04-19 2:15 PM rockette - 2016-04-19 3:14 PM 1DSoon - 2016-04-19 2:11 PM rockette - 2016-04-19 3:11 PM 3canstorun - 2016-04-19 1:15 PM Another clone has hit the barrel horse world. I wonder what is in store for Double Latte - Mary Walker's clone of Latte?
Will he go to the pen, or just stand for stud?
In my opinion, she would be smart to run him. Too many others are cloning just to stand at stud. I think smart money is on running him. So you would just let him sit like the others?
They have everything to lose if they run him and he's a dud. And very little to gain if he's decent to good.
The odds are he never stacks up to the orginal. There is no proof that will happen. No barrel racing clone has completed. There is no basis for what might happen. Pretty expensive breeding dud to sit around. Go pony up a $100k and compete your tail off then. It's a bad biz decision to try it. That's why no one has. Why are you so defensive towards me? I just gave an opinion on clones not being completed on. As another poster pointed out they are competing on clones in other disciplines. Why do you have to be so nasty? You go breed to those clones since you think it is all going to be successful. Have you bred to a clone? Which one? Or why not?
Ahhh...Norma and Rick together again!! |
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 Lived to tell about it and will never do it again
Posts: 5409
| I don't like the idea of cloning but that is besides the point. We only have geldings with no desire to own a mare so I don't know all the ins and outs of it but one thing that I keep thinking is that everyone says that 80 to 90 percent of the colt is due to the mare and not the stud. I'm not talking health, I mean ability, attitude and such. If so why do we see such high stud fee's. Shouldn't it be the other way around. |
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 Expert
Posts: 1898
| FlyingHigh1454 - 2016-04-19 5:06 PM
Gunner11 - 2016-04-19 5:52 PM
rockette - 2016-04-19 4:33 PM
1DSoon - 2016-04-19 4:30 PMThis is like herding cats.
COngrats, you have defeated me.Â
 I am not trying to defeat you. I think that you are speaking in regards to cloning a horse with great breeding genetics. I am talking about if someone decided to compete on the clone I don't think it would affect the stud fee any different if they didn't ride.
So you honestly believe that if Clayton went to the barrel pen and couldn't even pull a 5D check, that he would still command the same stud fee that he does right now?
lol from the looks of it, he isn't even getting that stud fee now since there doesn't seem to be any hitting the ground.
I just read the last time cloning came up in here, and I'll try to find it, that Clayton's book accepts 10 mares a year. |
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 A Somebody to Everybody
Posts: 41354
Location: Under The Big Sky Of Texas | cyount2009 - 2016-04-19 5:13 PM FlyingHigh1454 - 2016-04-19 5:06 PM Gunner11 - 2016-04-19 5:52 PM rockette - 2016-04-19 4:33 PM 1DSoon - 2016-04-19 4:30 PMThis is like herding cats.
COngrats, you have defeated me.
I am not trying to defeat you. I think that you are speaking in regards to cloning a horse with great breeding genetics. I am talking about if someone decided to compete on the clone I don't think it would affect the stud fee any different if they didn't ride. So you honestly believe that if Clayton went to the barrel pen and couldn't even pull a 5D check, that he would still command the same stud fee that he does right now? lol from the looks of it, he isn't even getting that stud fee now since there doesn't seem to be any hitting the ground. I just read the last time cloning came up in here, and I'll try to find it, that Clayton's book accepts 10 mares a year.
I think shes talking about Latte  |
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 Fact Checker
Posts: 16575
Location: Displaced Iowegian | Whiteboy - 2016-04-19 5:11 PM NJJ - 2016-04-19 2:46 PM rockette - 2016-04-19 2:36 PM 1DSoon - 2016-04-19 2:30 PM rockette - 2016-04-19 3:18 PM 1DSoon - 2016-04-19 2:15 PM rockette - 2016-04-19 3:14 PM 1DSoon - 2016-04-19 2:11 PM rockette - 2016-04-19 3:11 PM 3canstorun - 2016-04-19 1:15 PM Another clone has hit the barrel horse world. I wonder what is in store for Double Latte - Mary Walker's clone of Latte?
Will he go to the pen, or just stand for stud?
In my opinion, she would be smart to run him. Too many others are cloning just to stand at stud. I think smart money is on running him. So you would just let him sit like the others?
They have everything to lose if they run him and he's a dud. And very little to gain if he's decent to good.
The odds are he never stacks up to the orginal. There is no proof that will happen. No barrel racing clone has completed. There is no basis for what might happen. Pretty expensive breeding dud to sit around. Go pony up a $100k and compete your tail off then. It's a bad biz decision to try it. That's why no one has. Why are you so defensive towards me? I just gave an opinion on clones not being completed on. As another poster pointed out they are competing on clones in other disciplines. Why do you have to be so nasty? You go breed to those clones since you think it is all going to be successful. Have you bred to a clone? Which one? Or why not?
Whaaaaat? Say it isn't so.......we almost never agree on anything....LOLOLOLOLOL |
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 Hugs to You
Posts: 7551
Location: In The Land of Cotton | While I certainly am no expert how could a clone left a stallion perform like Latte a gelding? Aren't they two different individuals? Different in the fact one has his "parts" and the other doesn't? |
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Fact Checker
Posts: 16575
Location: Displaced Iowegian | 3canstorun - 2016-04-19 6:36 PM While I certainly am no expert how could a clone left a stallion perform like Latte a gelding? Aren't they two different individuals? Different in the fact one has his "parts" and the other doesn't?
I posted on another thread that I have identical twin half sisters and even though they have the identical DNA and look identical, they have way different "brain matter"....... just saying! |
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Regular
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Location: Some where | Ohhhhh, my brain! My SIMPLE. LITTLE. BRAIN...... |
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 Saint Stacey
| No one should be surprised Latte was cloned. Mary's only been competing with VIAGEN stamped on her breastcollar for a year now. Of course she was waiting for this clone to be born.
I highly doubt Walker's paid one single penny for this clone.
I'm not sure why Latte needed cloned since Danny Ray has s full brother to him. I promise that full brother will never compete because Danny doesn't believe in possibly setting a stud prospect up to fail if they are actually a dud.
Cloning is all about having a disposable commodity. It's a wasteful industry. I'd love to know how many Latte foals were created and what made Mary pick this one. Typically they create 3-5 clones to get one viable one. But they don't exactly tell the public that. |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 747
| In my honest opinion, why are we all on here fighting over an animal that you don't even own and you have nothing to do with? The owners will do with the clone what they choose to, and you won't have any impact on that. The decision is theirs to make, and they will be the ones that have to live with the consequences, NOT you.
And besides the point, how would a clone be any different than a full sibling? FWOTR has a full sibling, was there discussion on here about what the owners were going to do with him?
And people are going to think and do what they want. Some will breed to a full sibling/clone simply based on the performance of the siblings/original horse. While others will only breed to a stallion who has proven himself. To each their own, find something better to do then sit online and discuss something that has NOTHING to do with you. |
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 I Don't Brag
Posts: 6960
| Burn n' Turn - 2016-04-19 7:37 PM
In my honest opinion, why are we all on here fighting over an animal that you don't even own and you have nothing to do with? The owners will do with the clone what they choose to, and you won't have any impact on that. The decision is theirs to make, and they will be the ones that have to live with the consequences, NOT you.
And besides the point, how would a clone be any different than a full sibling? FWOTR has a full sibling, was there discussion on here about what the owners were going to do with him?
And people are going to think and do what they want. Some will breed to a full sibling/clone simply based on the performance of the siblings/original horse. While others will only breed to a stallion who has proven himself. To each their own, find something better to do then sit online and discuss something that has NOTHING to do with you.
There is a HUGH difference in between full siblings and a clone. When you have two complete sets of DNA contributing to offspring they an be combined in an almost infinite number on configurations. Did you take biology in high school? For example if you breed long haired guinea pigs with short haired guinea pigs, and add color with one hair type and color being dominant, you come up with a genotype ratio of 1/2/2/4/1/2/1/2/1 or a phenotype (appearance) of 9/3/3/1. in other words you will have so many long haired white, short haired white, long haired black and short haired black g. pigs, but not all of those in any given group will have the same GENOTYPE, the genetics which they can pass on. And that is just TWO factors controlled by genetics. ( This is the same process by which those color calculators come up with color predictions).
I never went much farther in to the study if genetics but have to wonder exactly how much influence the MITOCHONDRIAL DNA play, not to mention external chemistry etc., have to do with the final product. Perhaps our resident VIAGEN rep can give his two cents? And all of that does not answer the nature vs nurture question, i.e. would Scamper have been the force he was to be reckoned with if he had not had a less than ideal beginnings, and then to come to the hands of a young girl who became an incredible partner for whatever reasons?
One problem with cloning is found by following the money trail. You have people with money, a company with backing and some champion animals. It happened once, why not again? Can't register them? With enough time and money most any obstacle can be breeched. And the then there are scientific question yet to be answered and then of course the biggest issues are moral/ethical. Should we just because we can. I can guarantee you that somewhere, someone is working with cloning humans..... maybe to replace someone one lost, maybe for organ donation, maybe to recreate a "great " leader. What are the moral implications? The legal status of the clone? Whose right supersede whose? WHO is responsible??? Our scientific abilities have far outstripped our legal system and moral development. |
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