smiley - 2014-04-17 8:15 AM




I find this one hard to believe. If the bull was on federal land in a pen, then yes, they probably tried to round him out and get him loaded. I think that too many are willing to just take what they hear at face value and drive on.

I wasn't there, but from what I have read the bulls were shot because they charged the agents. Again, if the bulls had been on private property this would not have happened. The agents did not go on private property to get anything, including bulls. 

chicks2 - 2014-04-17 9:22 AM I just can't wrap my head around the fact that because Bundy doesn't believe it is national land, even though apparently someone knew it when they took up the offer to graze cattle on it for a little over a buck a head, but now that it's time to pay for it, well it belongs to the state. Huh? The Bundy's have had chances to remedy this through the appropriate channels, and there's always an excuse....we've had bad experiences with lawyers.....per the constitution Nevada owns this not the federal government, so we don't think we should pay the feds...bottom line so we don't pay anyone, and whip up a firestorm of Liberty and Injustice because it seems to me they just don't want to pay their bills. I know what would happen to me if I all of a sudden decided I didn't want to pay Chase my mortgage payment because I thought it belonged to Bank of America. Don't we all own the land that the Bundy's have leased, but not paid for? What about National Parks? I think there's a few of those in Nevada, one pretty good sized one in a neighboring state, the Grand Canyon? I don't remember seeing big issues over those nationally owned pieces of land. Now, it's become something way out of proportion to what it should be, and the longer it goes, the less I feel for this rancher. Like the original poster said, if he doesn't like the arrangement let someone else take it. Move your herd to the land you own and you can do what you dang well please.

rodeomom13 - 2014-04-17 8:21 AM


Yet no one comes to your defense, claiming that maybe you are just misunderstood.


(lets see how many dislikes I get for this.)

 

rodeomom13 - 2014-04-17 8:21 AM


Yet no one comes to your defense, claiming that maybe you are just misunderstood.


(lets see how many dislikes I get for this.)

 

smiley - 2014-04-17 8:31 AM


Well, this was dramatically written.

But I agreed with some of your points, maybe not the way you think. You already were/are socialized, you basically had a benefit that no one else had and at a fraction of the cost of any other grazing land, access to public land in which your business was more viable than it would have been had you not had access to public land. It's not your land anymore than it's some wacky turtle loving liberals land. It's not their land either, which is why the BLM to my view, was the intermediary who was trying to keep BLM grazing while responding to the NEPA law and the activists. Again, they are danged if they do and danged if they don't. 

You are asking, literally for the federal govt. to "give you your land" - but federal land was never yours to begin with. If it reverts back to the States, the sad fact is that these same activists will still be after the land, only now they too can go more locally to fight their battle as well. The sad fact is that the States will likely take the land and sell it to the highest bidder and then you have what you have in Wyoming and Colorado - people like Ted Turner buying up the prized land and raising the taxes of the locals and pushing them out another way. Do you really envision that the States will get the land and be all like "Ohhhhhhhhh, I know a perfect rancher to pay me $1.34 a head per month for this land." I just never see that happening. The BLM loses millions on their grazing permits, States won't settel for that once they get the land, if they get the land.

Who relies on the govt., to "share your riches"? The activists? Free you from govt., bondage?? I'm not sure I was able to keep up with your line of thinking here. Who put you in govt., bondage and what is stopping you from freeing yourself?

So, if someone does not support the federal land as a rancher's private reserve, then they are the problem?? 

 

musikmaker - 2014-04-17 9:42 AM I'm honestly trying very hard to 'feel' this type of 'opinion'...it's nearly impossible for me because I keep going to that "what's right/wrong" place!  And I'm not speaking of the Bundy Cattle...you see, it's not the issue.  This is about a rancher who was being forced out of existance along with his neighbors by whatever means the fed could find.  The fed was using the monies paid to them by the ranchers to destroy them...why should anyone be required to pay for their own demise?

Bundy 'fired' them back in 1993.  They weren't using the fees he paid to maintain & manage the lease as agreed.  He took a stand way back then regarding this issue.

I haven't searched for this myself, maybe someone on here has the time, but, I've heard that the Bundy case was originally heard by a local to court & when the rancher's case before him was dismissed the reps from the gov't left the court room & refused to have it heard there.  That was when Bundy refused to acknowledge their authority & jurisdiction.  This is the real issue...what authority and/or jurisidiction do these alphabet agencies truly and legally have over the citizens?  The answer is none.



Let me repeat a portion of that...the representatives for the government...note...they don't represent the people as they are not a part of the people's gov't.  Drink this in & know it to be the truth.



This is not about Bundy or his cattle or the tortoise or the solar...it's about gov't overreach and how the people have been scammed & bullied.  Bundy has never said he didn't owe the grazing fees, he's just not going to pay it to an agency that cannot even prove their Constitutional right to exist.

I hope that helps...it's a very complicated matter, obviously, otherwise he'd already be off the land after all these years!





 

rodeoveteran - 2014-04-17 10:39 AM

I have skipped the middle 10 or 15 pages of this thread because I just don't have the time or patience anymore. So now I am going to string together a bunch of random thoughts and opinions on what I have read.

First. This is about power and control vs individual rights. ANYBODY who thinks that they OWN their own land, that they bought and paid for.....it's all an illusion. Try not paying your taxes. Or not conforming to zoning laws. Or untold regulations put in place without your knowledge or consent. Or be in the path of some project either private or governmental, (the biggest example would be the Trans Texas Corridor, more aptly, the Trans American Corridor or whatever they want to call it going through Mexico, the US and Canada) and see what effect Eminent Domain will have on your "private and paid for property". Oh and don't forget the power grab by the EPA over any property with a drop of water on it. Does YOUR property have a drop of water on it? Beware! They didn't tell you that when you bought your "private" property did they, because they changed the rules midgame, kinda like in the issues facing ranchers out West.

Next, just because "It's the Law" does not make it right or Just. Bad laws are passed everyday, without our knowledge or consent and we are held beholden to them with the argument that ignorance of the "law" is no defense. Beyond that what was Law yesterday can be completely changed today with the stroke of "a pen'' through Executive order at the whim and political/personal opinion and agenda of whoever is holding that pen. NOT what we signed up for or were promised eh?

Next. Most people believe that we live in a Democracy. It's what we are taught. This country was form as a Republic, with individual States retaining the Right to govern within it's borders. The Federal Government, over time has pretty much usurped the States Rights to govern under the guise of the "better good". This is the battleground that the Bundy case is being fought on. What gives the Federal Government the right to
designate land as Federal in the first place? Out West vast tracts of land was retained by the Government to completely subsidized the Railroad for right of way and for timber to supply the rails. I'm pretty sure that politicians were lining their own, private pockets back then. And an aside...the railroad is heavily subsidized to this day.
While I abhor slavery and was taught that the Civil War was fought over slavery, I can see more and more that it was an issue of States Rights. Had they confined the issue to slavery then it was a just War, when you bring the issue of States Rights, then I can see where the issue becomes a very gray area indeed.

Some questions. Somewhere on this thread somebody stated that the BLM makes money....like that is OK. Our government was never intend to be in business. IMHO instead of, or in addition to the Separation of Church and State there should be a clause about the Separation of Business and State. Yes there are "laws" but they are conveniently overlooked and ignored when it comes down to political finagling. When government owns/operates business I believe that is called Fascism? I may conservative but not that far right!

Another question. Why is the BLM dressed and armed like the Military? I find that a frightening thing. Couple with the fact that the IRS and other arms of the government who are supposed to "help" us and look out for our welfare are similarly armed and equipped under the guise of "Homeland Security" and our "protection" and the "greater good" I am VERY frightened....by my own government, supposedly "...OF the People, BY the People and For the People. " It becomes more and more apparent that "I" have been removed from "the People."!

To the politically inclined. Those on the Left howl about Big Business, those on the Right howl about Big Government. IMHO anybody who think the two are separate are pretty much delusional. They go hand in hand these days. IMHO the Koch Brothers and Harry Reid are cut from the same cloth and are fighting over the same marbles....OUR marbles included. The cloth comes from the same shroud of politics no matter which end of the political spectrum they call home. I have never understood the lust for enormous political and financial power. I want power in my own life, FOR my own life. Why would I want power over someone else? I just don't get that. And how much money can you spend...really? Unless you spend it in a quest for more "power"??? ANYBODY with that mindset NEEDS to be questioned rather than followed blindly.

Now a random observation or two. Someone justified the shooting of a couple of bulls because they charged....ummm......solitary bulls are apt to charge. It's what they do, they are bulls....not domestic pets....they are bulls! Somebody should have clued those BLM guys in....or it was an intentional message sent. This is what will happen to you if you defy us.

I don't know if Bundy falls more on the side of right or wrong, but I am inclined to support him over Big Brother because of the increased abuse of power and law perpetuated by government.

I am pretty sure that I have more observations and opinions but I have lost track of them and even more sure that anyone who has bothered to read my ramblings here cares to read them.... Well all but one. Who in the heck CARES about how many Likes/Dislikes ?????!!!!! Not me, I guess...

That is all....for now.

musikmaker - 2014-04-17 8:21 AM You're not comprehending the fact that the states were supposed to recieve the land, water, minerals...and taxing authority...within their borders!  The fed hasn't kept up their end of the bargain...the various 'enabling acts' allowed the states to gain statehood without the land 'until such a time as the land was disposed of' (as in sold, homesteaded etc...).  It never happened.

So ranchers, miners, drillers etc...have put this land into production over the years & used their own funds to do so...they've taken risks...it's the American way. 

You seem to think it's easy living...that they're getting 'rich' and you resent that.  There's nothing wrong with making a living, even a good one, while providing product to a Nation.



In more recent years the fed has been closing the land to 'multiple use'...mostly at the urging of groups like the Sierra Club, Earth First, various 'Friends of_____' & Wilderness Associations.  Non-profits with huge bank accounts who employ high wage lobbyists to close down land to the public it supposedly belongs to.  In order for them to continue to ask for donations they must have 'emergencies'...they must have more & more land that they can target.  They have many friends & appointments within the BLM...as pointed out over & over, the BLM is NOT answerable to the public...it can & should be dismantled.



Anyhow...I see how it is...sadly you do not.  I suppose we all have a loyalty to who butters our bread regardless of the right or wrong of it.

And no, we're not 'asking' we'll be demanding & have every right to do so.  Furthermore, it's nobody's business outside of the state what we do with the land.

You've twisted the thought process...I mean...a "ranchers private reserve"???  Lol...



One more time...the gov't used to claim 51% (their take as managers) of the land revenue while the states recieved 49%...until last year, the gov't decided (without public knowledge) to up their % to 53...they're broke ya know...because of a little known 'agreement' with the origianl 13 states concerning this revenue, it's split between the remaining states, as in, those are the monies that Congress fights over every year during the budget wars.  So there's your 'greed'.  The 'carrot on the stick'.    And precisely 'who' put the western states in bondage to the eastern states.

Whoever thinks this is ok is the problem.

And it wouldn't take a court to make it right as it's already law...just decency & a desire to fix a major wrong.



 

MS2011 - 2014-04-17 8:23 AM It was STILL in a PEN.



They took a half assed excuse to shoot them.  Given the confrontational nature of the 'roundup', they were looking for any excuse.  I've worked lots of cattle, I'm calling bullchit on shooting them being the only way to deal with the situation. 



It's not just in NV.   I still want to know why the BLM even has a police force?  And why, no matter whose, where the cattle are...it's ok to use inhumance tactics like this to gather? 



Why was this deemed a crisis that had to be address in this manner now?



Al Sharpton owes the IRS 1.9 million, and gets dinner with Obummer.....This guy 'might' owe a figure far south of 1 million, and we blow 3 million to go after it? 



This is from Sid Miller's page...

As you may know, I have taken a strong stance against the abuses and federal overreach of the Obama Administration and by the President’s Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) and Bureau of Land Management (BLM) here in Texas. What has taken place in recent days in Nevada is clear and compelling evidence that Barack Obama and his out-of-control thugs will stop at nothing to seize more power and exert their will, regardless whether doing so violates our constitution, impedes state’s rights, or infringes upon the private property and water rights of farmers, ranchers, and individual landowners. I will not stand by and let what happened in Nevada happen in Texas—not on my watch!



Earlier this week, I issued a press release urging Governor Perry to be prepared, if necessary, to mobilize our state’s military and law enforcement resources in order to protect Texas citizens and landowners from proposed actions that would put some 90,000 acres of land along a 116 mile stretch of the Red River at risk of a BLM takeover.



Yesterday, believe it or not, I received a call from a Republican State Legislator asking me to back down from my “aggressive” stance against the federal government and the BLM. He was concerned that our fellow Texans might show up armed on the Red River in order to defend their friends, neighbors and fellow citizens against the BLM and its heavy handed tactics by armed federal agents. This state lawmaker told me that since I issued my press release earlier this week alerting Texans to the very real danger to their private property rights his office has been receiving calls from what he described as “crazy, gun-toting Texans” and that caused him concern. He told me he wanted me to retract my statement and back down on my stance against the BLM. He told me that if didn’t do so he would retract his endorsement of me in my race for Texas Agriculture Commissioner.



If you know anything about Sid Miller, you know that I don’t back down from doing what is right. Gaining an endorsement from a politician is never worth giving up my beliefs, violating the constitution, or putting the individual rights of Texans and their property at risk. I will never back down from an over-reaching federal government no matter what the cost and most especially because I might lose a campaign endorsement.



The only endorsement I truly care about is yours and I pray that you will continue to stand with me and our fellow citizens here in Texas, Nevada, and across the United States who have been abused and victimized by Barack Obama and his out-of-control, overreaching, and over regulating federal agents and bureaucrats.



The stakes have never been higher in the race for Texas Agriculture Commissioner. I want you to know that as your next Ag Commissioner, I will always say what I mean, do what I say, and stand up in defense of our freedoms. You should demand that from all of your elected officials because you deserve no less.



If you agree, please share this with your friends and family. I won’t get the support of the Austin insiders who are afraid to take a stand, which means your vote and support in the May 27th Republican Primary run-off is even more important. I humbly ask for your vote and ask that you keep me in your prayers as I continue this fight.



---Sid Miller

 

rodeoveteran - 2014-04-17 9:39 AM I have skipped the middle 10 or 15 pages of this thread because I just don't have the time or patience anymore. So now I am going to string together a bunch of random thoughts and opinions on what I have read. First. This is about power and control vs individual rights. ANYBODY who thinks that they OWN their own land, that they bought and paid for.....it's all an illusion. Try not paying your taxes. Or not conforming to zoning laws. Or untold regulations put in place without your knowledge or consent. Or be in the path of some project either private or governmental, (the biggest example would be the Trans Texas Corridor, more aptly, the Trans American Corridor or whatever they want to call it going through Mexico, the US and Canada) and see what effect Eminent Domain will have on your "private and paid for property". Oh and don't forget the power grab by the EPA over any property with a drop of water on it. Does YOUR property have a drop of water on it? Beware! They didn't tell you that when you bought your "private" property did they, because they changed the rules midgame, kinda like in the issues facing ranchers out West. Next, just because "It's the Law" does not make it right or Just. Bad laws are passed everyday, without our knowledge or consent and we are held beholden to them with the argument that ignorance of the "law" is no defense. Beyond that what was Law yesterday can be completely changed today with the stroke of "a pen'' through Executive order at the whim and political/personal opinion and agenda of whoever is holding that pen. NOT what we signed up for or were promised eh? Next. Most people believe that we live in a Democracy. It's what we are taught. This country was form as a Republic, with individual States retaining the Right to govern within it's borders. The Federal Government, over time has pretty much usurped the States Rights to govern under the guise of the "better good". This is the battleground that the Bundy case is being fought on. What gives the Federal Government the right to designate land as Federal in the first place? Out West vast tracts of land was retained by the Government to completely subsidized the Railroad for right of way and for timber to supply the rails. I'm pretty sure that politicians were lining their own, private pockets back then. And an aside...the railroad is heavily subsidized to this day. While I abhor slavery and was taught that the Civil War was fought over slavery, I can see more and more that it was an issue of States Rights. Had they confined the issue to slavery then it was a just War, when you bring the issue of States Rights, then I can see where the issue becomes a very gray area indeed. Some questions. Somewhere on this thread somebody stated that the BLM makes money....like that is OK. Our government was never intend to be in business. IMHO instead of, or in addition to the Separation of Church and State there should be a clause about the Separation of Business and State. Yes there are "laws" but they are conveniently overlooked and ignored when it comes down to political finagling. When government owns/operates business I believe that is called Fascism? I may conservative but not that far right! Another question. Why is the BLM dressed and armed like the Military? I find that a frightening thing. Couple with the fact that the IRS and other arms of the government who are supposed to "help" us and look out for our welfare are similarly armed and equipped under the guise of "Homeland Security" and our "protection" and the "greater good" I am VERY frightened....by my own government, supposedly "...OF the People, BY the People and For the People. " It becomes more and more apparent that "I" have been removed from "the People."! To the politically inclined. Those on the Left howl about Big Business, those on the Right howl about Big Government. IMHO anybody who think the two are separate are pretty much delusional. They go hand in hand these days. IMHO the Koch Brothers and Harry Reid are cut from the same cloth and are fighting over the same marbles....OUR marbles included. The cloth comes from the same shroud of politics no matter which end of the political spectrum they call home. I have never understood the lust for enormous political and financial power. I want power in my own life, FOR my own life. Why would I want power over someone else? I just don't get that. And how much money can you spend...really? Unless you spend it in a quest for more "power"??? ANYBODY with that mindset NEEDS to be questioned rather than followed blindly. Now a random observation or two. Someone justified the shooting of a couple of bulls because they charged....ummm......solitary bulls are apt to charge. It's what they do, they are bulls....not domestic pets....they are bulls! Somebody should have clued those BLM guys in....or it was an intentional message sent. This is what will happen to you if you defy us. I don't know if Bundy falls more on the side of right or wrong, but I am inclined to support him over Big Brother because of the increased abuse of power and law perpetuated by government. I am pretty sure that I have more observations and opinions but I have lost track of them and even more sure that anyone who has bothered to read my ramblings here cares to read them.... Well all but one. Who in the heck CARES about how many Likes/Dislikes ?????!!!!! Not me, I guess... That is all....for now.

foundation horse - 2014-04-17 9:52 AM Smiley, are you discounting the original intent of The Gov't Land Office to disposition said land?

foundation horse - 2014-04-17 10:52 AM   Smiley, are you discounting the original intent of The Gov't Land Office to disposition said land?

foundation horse - 2014-04-17 9:42 AM Smiley, I would agree w/ you if said charged the agents. But there is video to indicate one bull was paneled corral and had the charged the agents the corral would have damaged would they not? For per the video of the corral panels there was no damage. Now granted this is from The Bundy Supporters, however The BLM has not debunked the idea that this bull was not in the corral shown.

smiley - 2014-04-17 10:08 AM



Actually, I understand it fine and realize there are court cases in the works to take the feds to task. I agree with the states doing this. I agree that it sucks. I also agree that it happens because life changes, just like it did for all the millions that have come before you who were also screwed out of something they were promised and I will be following some of the other cases, like hte indian land they want to turn into a park.



I could care less who butters my bread, but again with the insinuation that I couldn't possibly have this opinion AND work for the govt. is noted. It's a sad time when I can't have a different opinion than you and that it makes me stupid and paid for. Of course I totally disagree. As I've mentioned several times, I don't support the texas case for example. That was private deeded land and that's outrageous. This Bundy case is NOT that case. 



At least you pointed out all the "environ" groups who are a thorn in the side to ALL of us. As Bibs posted, they are now trying to charge people to ride horses in the forest. I think that greed is universal and both states, owners, activists and the feds are infected with it. 



I fully the support the states vs. the feds going to court. THIS argument is about Bundy and his total lack of understanding on the issues and he has lost in court three times for this lack of understanding. I realize you think EVERYONE under the sun is bought and paid for, including lawyers and judges, but that simply is not reality.



 

TXBO - 2014-04-17 11:25 AM


 What gives GLO legitimacy while BLM is an "alphabet agency"?

foundation horse - 2014-04-17 11:43 AM


Good question. From that line of thinking, then BOTH are/were Alphabet Agencies.
However, from a current day perspective, The GLO did not have Armed Enforcers i.e. Troops, that the current day Alphabet Agencies have. (That I am aware of anyway.)

musikmaker - 2014-04-17 10:34 AM I didn't intend to refer to only you on that one, more pointing out that everyone outside of the states who are being stolen from are recieving far more milk from the 'government teat' than they realize, or maybe they do realize it I don't know...I personally could not work for a bullying gov't agency that has no Constitutional right to exist, it's not in my 'make-up'.

Life changes?  The more it changes the more it stays the same...I think it's interesting that there's only a few forms of gov't, it's not as if there's some 'new, improved' option available to us!  People don't change.  Ever. 

I'll stand for freedom & justice to my dying day.  (Hopefully that's not too 'dramatic?!  Lol)



I've not heard of the 'Reservation Park' you refer to?  The rez is a perfect example of socialism, it's not working out too well...they need title to their land, too...that I agree with.