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CONSERVATIVE ADVICE FOR CLIVEN BUNDY

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foundation horse
Reg. Aug 2004
Posted 2014-04-17 12:08 PM
Subject: RE: CONSERVATIVE ADVICE FOR CLIVEN BUNDY


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You have got to stand for something or You will fall for anything!
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TXBO
Reg. Aug 2009
Posted 2014-04-17 12:10 PM
Subject: RE: CONSERVATIVE ADVICE FOR CLIVEN BUNDY



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jbhoot - 2014-04-17 12:02 PM

The BLM is most certainly a police force. After a long history of convoluted jurisdiction Congress granted police authority in 1978. And yes everyone of the Agents that have been pictured dressed as paramilitary has a badge on from the BLM. You really should read up on the history of the present day BLM it is a prime example of how messed up the Federal Government has become. And If you had read the court orders issued in this case you would see NO such authority exists to destroy or dispose of Bundy's property. So it seems that in your mind it is ok for the agents of the BLM violate the court orders but not Bundy. Your stance on this makes zero sense to me.


If I had to choose only three words to describe the BLM it would be bloated, inept and corrupt.
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jbhoot
Reg. Jan 2010
Posted 2014-04-17 12:11 PM
Subject: RE: CONSERVATIVE ADVICE FOR CLIVEN BUNDY



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foundation horse - 2014-04-17 11:45 AM

foundation horse - 2014-04-17 11:43 AM

TXBO - 2014-04-17 11:25 AM

foundation horse - 2014-04-17 10:52 AM   Smiley, are you discounting the original intent of The Gov't Land Office to disposition said land?

 What gives GLO legitimacy while BLM is an "alphabet agency"?

Good question. From that line of thinking, then BOTH are/were Alphabet Agencies.
However, from a current day perspective, The GLO did not have Armed Enforcers i.e. Troops, that the current day Alphabet Agencies have. (That I am aware of anyway.)

Also, the GLO's stated original intent was to disposition i.e. dispose of land. None of the current Alphabet Agencies are disposing of anything but American's money via their budgets and imposing upon American's Rights and Freedoms.

If you look the history the BLM Is the GLO.
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TXBO
Reg. Aug 2009
Posted 2014-04-17 12:17 PM
Subject: RE: CONSERVATIVE ADVICE FOR CLIVEN BUNDY



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jbhoot - 2014-04-17 12:11 PM
foundation horse - 2014-04-17 11:45 AM
foundation horse - 2014-04-17 11:43 AM
TXBO - 2014-04-17 11:25 AM
foundation horse - 2014-04-17 10:52 AM   Smiley, are you discounting the original intent of The Gov't Land Office to disposition said land?
 What gives GLO legitimacy while BLM is an "alphabet agency"?
Good question. From that line of thinking, then BOTH are/were Alphabet Agencies. However, from a current day perspective, The GLO did not have Armed Enforcers i.e. Troops, that the current day Alphabet Agencies have. (That I am aware of anyway.)
Also, the GLO's stated original intent was to disposition i.e. dispose of land. None of the current Alphabet Agencies are disposing of anything but American's money via their budgets and imposing upon American's Rights and Freedoms.
If you look the history the BLM Is the GLO.

Yea, it sure is.  That was kind of my point. 
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musikmaker
Reg. Sep 2004
Posted 2014-04-17 12:25 PM
Subject: RE: CONSERVATIVE ADVICE FOR CLIVEN BUNDY



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smiley - 2014-04-17 10:49 AM
musikmaker - 2014-04-17 10:34 AM
smiley - 2014-04-17 10:08 AM
musikmaker - 2014-04-17 8:21 AM
smiley - 2014-04-17 7:31 AM
musikmaker - 2014-04-16 6:20 PM
foundation horse - 2014-04-16 2:56 PM This LIVE Link is from the Guy who actually walked out front up to the FED's Fence. Also, there is invalidated info floating around that the FEDS were surrounded by 3000 Americans (Patriots/Militia Types) and something like 500 FEDs. Again, this is unconfirmed to my knowledge. http://www.westernjournalism.com/footage-bundy-massacre/
Wow...that's a powerful video.

I went to town today & had some time to mull this over some more...(imagine).



Part of me fumes when I hear people say that the ranchers out here are on 'the government teat'...yet, I can see the point.  It's like the reservations...we're the next area to be 'socialized'...and have very little support in fighting it.  If we grab our guns we're 'radical', if we do nothing we're cowards.  The short answer is to give us our land, then we won't be a 'welfare cause' anymore.

Can that happen?  Without a stand?

I don't think so.

Many on here & everywhere, including Cliven Bundy, have been saying that this isn't about cattle, turtles or even solar.  This is just the 'tool' to get a fair day in court.  It can't happen any other way...and I don't know that it will happen this way...there's not a lot of options, though.

I now know that those of us out west naively thought that we could garner some support from the rest of Americans once they knew what was going on & how wrongly the citizens of the western states have been denied our equal footing...a chance to be economically strong and independent, to own our land.

Now we know that the majority of the Americans we hoped would help have come to rely on the gov't sharing our 'riches' with them & they're not about to free us from gov't bondage.

What was a great day in America has turned into a hard truth the rest of us hoped & prayed wasn't so...our Constitution is no longer the law of the land.

For those who would say, "If you don't like it move"...you're next so what's the point?

I used to think that this Nation was split by the Mississippi...it's moved to the Great Divide & is seeping westward.

Oh well!  Spring is here & the lake is calling!  Gonna enjoy it while I can cuz there ain't no glueing this world back together Humpty.






 
Well, this was dramatically written.



But I agreed with some of your points, maybe not the way you think. You already were/are socialized, you basically had a benefit that no one else had and at a fraction of the cost of any other grazing land, access to public land in which your business was more viable than it would have been had you not had access to public land. It's not your land anymore than it's some wacky turtle loving liberals land. It's not their land either, which is why the BLM to my view, was the intermediary who was trying to keep BLM grazing while responding to the NEPA law and the activists. Again, they are danged if they do and danged if they don't. 



You are asking, literally for the federal govt. to "give you your land" - but federal land was never yours to begin with. If it reverts back to the States, the sad fact is that these same activists will still be after the land, only now they too can go more locally to fight their battle as well. The sad fact is that the States will likely take the land and sell it to the highest bidder and then you have what you have in Wyoming and Colorado - people like Ted Turner buying up the prized land and raising the taxes of the locals and pushing them out another way. Do you really envision that the States will get the land and be all like "Ohhhhhhhhh, I know a perfect rancher to pay me $1.34 a head per month for this land." I just never see that happening. The BLM loses millions on their grazing permits, States won't settel for that once they get the land, if they get the land.



Who relies on the govt., to "share your riches"? The activists? Free you from govt., bondage?? I'm not sure I was able to keep up with your line of thinking here. Who put you in govt., bondage and what is stopping you from freeing yourself?



So, if someone does not support the federal land as a rancher's private reserve, then they are the problem?? 




 
You're not comprehending the fact that the states were supposed to recieve the land, water, minerals...and taxing authority...within their borders!  The fed hasn't kept up their end of the bargain...the various 'enabling acts' allowed the states to gain statehood without the land 'until such a time as the land was disposed of' (as in sold, homesteaded etc...).  It never happened.

So ranchers, miners, drillers etc...have put this land into production over the years & used their own funds to do so...they've taken risks...it's the American way. 

You seem to think it's easy living...that they're getting 'rich' and you resent that.  There's nothing wrong with making a living, even a good one, while providing product to a Nation.



In more recent years the fed has been closing the land to 'multiple use'...mostly at the urging of groups like the Sierra Club, Earth First, various 'Friends of_____' & Wilderness Associations.  Non-profits with huge bank accounts who employ high wage lobbyists to close down land to the public it supposedly belongs to.  In order for them to continue to ask for donations they must have 'emergencies'...they must have more & more land that they can target.  They have many friends & appointments within the BLM...as pointed out over & over, the BLM is NOT answerable to the public...it can & should be dismantled.



Anyhow...I see how it is...sadly you do not.  I suppose we all have a loyalty to who butters our bread regardless of the right or wrong of it.

And no, we're not 'asking' we'll be demanding & have every right to do so.  Furthermore, it's nobody's business outside of the state what we do with the land.

You've twisted the thought process...I mean...a "ranchers private reserve"???  Lol...



One more time...the gov't used to claim 51% (their take as managers) of the land revenue while the states recieved 49%...until last year, the gov't decided (without public knowledge) to up their % to 53...they're broke ya know...because of a little known 'agreement' with the origianl 13 states concerning this revenue, it's split between the remaining states, as in, those are the monies that Congress fights over every year during the budget wars.  So there's your 'greed'.  The 'carrot on the stick'.    And precisely 'who' put the western states in bondage to the eastern states.

Whoever thinks this is ok is the problem.

And it wouldn't take a court to make it right as it's already law...just decency & a desire to fix a major wrong.




 




Actually, I understand it fine and realize there are court cases in the works to take the feds to task. I agree with the states doing this. I agree that it sucks. I also agree that it happens because life changes, just like it did for all the millions that have come before you who were also screwed out of something they were promised and I will be following some of the other cases, like hte indian land they want to turn into a park.



I could care less who butters my bread, but again with the insinuation that I couldn't possibly have this opinion AND work for the govt. is noted. It's a sad time when I can't have a different opinion than you and that it makes me stupid and paid for. Of course I totally disagree. As I've mentioned several times, I don't support the texas case for example. That was private deeded land and that's outrageous. This Bundy case is NOT that case. 



At least you pointed out all the "environ" groups who are a thorn in the side to ALL of us. As Bibs posted, they are now trying to charge people to ride horses in the forest. I think that greed is universal and both states, owners, activists and the feds are infected with it. 



I fully the support the states vs. the feds going to court. THIS argument is about Bundy and his total lack of understanding on the issues and he has lost in court three times for this lack of understanding. I realize you think EVERYONE under the sun is bought and paid for, including lawyers and judges, but that simply is not reality.




 
I didn't intend to refer to only you on that one, more pointing out that everyone outside of the states who are being stolen from are recieving far more milk from the 'government teat' than they realize, or maybe they do realize it I don't know...I personally could not work for a bullying gov't agency that has no Constitutional right to exist, it's not in my 'make-up'.

Life changes?  The more it changes the more it stays the same...I think it's interesting that there's only a few forms of gov't, it's not as if there's some 'new, improved' option available to us!  People don't change.  Ever. 

I'll stand for freedom & justice to my dying day.  (Hopefully that's not too 'dramatic?!  Lol)



I've not heard of the 'Reservation Park' you refer to?  The rez is a perfect example of socialism, it's not working out too well...they need title to their land, too...that I agree with.


 
 I didn't intend to refer to only you on that one, more pointing out that everyone outside of the states who are being stolen from are recieving far more milk from the 'government teat' than they realize, or maybe they do realize it I don't know...



Actually, I totally agree with this. My job and my soul are separate. I can see the waste, just like I could in the military. I see the "crazy" just like I did when I freelanced for different associations. I can see things - that doesn't mean I can change them and we all have bills to pay. There are good things about the govt agency I work for. But of course I can also see the typical GS slacky that shows up - barely - and works - barely - and it takes an act of Congress to fire said person. That is the same in any of these GS positions. I watched a GS 12 (good money) go shopping in the afternoons instead of her job!!!!!!!!! I actually brought this person to the higher ups several times, she's still there. It is a "mentality" quite like the welfare recips that is very difficult to change. 



Hell, I'm on one of those "busy bee" conference calls now and typing to you - I'm ADD and can multi task better than some, but yes, I'm probably wrong for doing it. I should be hanging on every word as a dutiful employees. Even though I don't vote on the issues and I don't work daily on the issues. 



We are not as far off as you think - I am for ranchers. I am for state's rights. I am not for Bundy throwing good people to the wolves and then starting a "donate" page on his site, and trying to make good people look bad for doing their jobs. I'm not for him throwing the name of the auction house out there, how do we know what the auction house even knew about the deal? We don't. WHy take others down with you in your 15 minutes of fame!



Reservations: I've driven through them. It's sickening what we've managed to do. Looks a lot like the democrat policies in Detroit. I don't have the link to that rez/park issue - does anyone know what i"m referring to?? I saw it on FB and now I can't find it and google searches turn up bundy, bundy, bundy.

We have a lot to agree about...I think it's more the 'from which perspective' do we derive our opinions?  Lol...I'm not a rancher, my husband get's to deal with the BLM concerning some oil leases & I know what a headache that is...they create a lot of bs rules & regs that don't make a bit of sense.  It's also very hard to see roads closed that they have no right to close...it's much more insidious than people realize.

I see this case as a major plus for the 'States Rights Movement', not at all unlike Rosa Parks and her amazing stand and contribution to the 'Civil Rights Movement'.
Cliven Bundy is a patriot...and a well spoken one.
A lot of the video's that are making the rounds have nothing to do with him personally.
Part of the donations are for a party they're having tomorrow at the ranch & it will help pay for entertainment & food.  I have no problem helping him to win this fight anyhow...it's for all of us. 

 
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musikmaker
Reg. Sep 2004
Posted 2014-04-17 12:28 PM
Subject: RE: CONSERVATIVE ADVICE FOR CLIVEN BUNDY



Nicknameless


Posts: 4565
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Location: I can see the end of the world from here!
TXBO - 2014-04-17 11:17 AM
jbhoot - 2014-04-17 12:11 PM
foundation horse - 2014-04-17 11:45 AM
foundation horse - 2014-04-17 11:43 AM
TXBO - 2014-04-17 11:25 AM
foundation horse - 2014-04-17 10:52 AM   Smiley, are you discounting the original intent of The Gov't Land Office to disposition said land?
 What gives GLO legitimacy while BLM is an "alphabet agency"?
Good question. From that line of thinking, then BOTH are/were Alphabet Agencies. However, from a current day perspective, The GLO did not have Armed Enforcers i.e. Troops, that the current day Alphabet Agencies have. (That I am aware of anyway.)
Also, the GLO's stated original intent was to disposition i.e. dispose of land. None of the current Alphabet Agencies are disposing of anything but American's money via their budgets and imposing upon American's Rights and Freedoms.
If you look the history the BLM Is the GLO.
Yea, it sure is.  That was kind of my point. 

So how does the US Geological Survey fit into this?
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musikmaker
Reg. Sep 2004
Posted 2014-04-17 12:32 PM
Subject: RE: CONSERVATIVE ADVICE FOR CLIVEN BUNDY



Nicknameless


Posts: 4565
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Location: I can see the end of the world from here!
TXBO - 2014-04-17 11:10 AM
jbhoot - 2014-04-17 12:02 PM The BLM is most certainly a police force. After a long history of convoluted jurisdiction Congress granted police authority in 1978. And yes everyone of the Agents that have been pictured dressed as paramilitary has a badge on from the BLM. You really should read up on the history of the present day BLM it is a prime example of how messed up the Federal Government has become. And If you had read the court orders issued in this case you would see NO such authority exists to destroy or dispose of Bundy's property. So it seems that in your mind it is ok for the agents of the BLM violate the court orders but not Bundy. Your stance on this makes zero sense to me.
If I had to choose only three words to describe the BLM it would be bloated, inept and corrupt.

No doubt.

I vividly recall the day the BLM, Forest Service etc...got their 'arms'.  Like most other 'laws' that are passed, the public was unaware until the 'public comment' time was up...you see they didn't arm themselves until much later...after the law had been on the books for however many years. (Although I recall the 'day' in memory, I don't recall the date...).  Just another sneaky tactic.

 
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jbhoot
Reg. Jan 2010
Posted 2014-04-17 12:38 PM
Subject: RE: CONSERVATIVE ADVICE FOR CLIVEN BUNDY



Proud to be Deplorable


Posts: 1929
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musikmaker - 2014-04-17 12:28 PM

TXBO - 2014-04-17 11:17 AM
jbhoot - 2014-04-17 12:11 PM
foundation horse - 2014-04-17 11:45 AM
foundation horse - 2014-04-17 11:43 AM
TXBO - 2014-04-17 11:25 AM
foundation horse - 2014-04-17 10:52 AM   Smiley, are you discounting the original intent of The Gov't Land Office to disposition said land?
 What gives GLO legitimacy while BLM is an "alphabet agency"?
Good question. From that line of thinking, then BOTH are/were Alphabet Agencies. However, from a current day perspective, The GLO did not have Armed Enforcers i.e. Troops, that the current day Alphabet Agencies have. (That I am aware of anyway.)
Also, the GLO's stated original intent was to disposition i.e. dispose of land. None of the current Alphabet Agencies are disposing of anything but American's money via their budgets and imposing upon American's Rights and Freedoms.
If you look the history the BLM Is the GLO.
Yea, it sure is.  That was kind of my point. 

So how does the US Geological Survey fit into this?

I am not sure on what question you are asking?
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musikmaker
Reg. Sep 2004
Posted 2014-04-17 12:47 PM
Subject: RE: CONSERVATIVE ADVICE FOR CLIVEN BUNDY



Nicknameless


Posts: 4565
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jbhoot - 2014-04-17 11:38 AM
musikmaker - 2014-04-17 12:28 PM
TXBO - 2014-04-17 11:17 AM
jbhoot - 2014-04-17 12:11 PM
foundation horse - 2014-04-17 11:45 AM
foundation horse - 2014-04-17 11:43 AM
TXBO - 2014-04-17 11:25 AM
foundation horse - 2014-04-17 10:52 AM   Smiley, are you discounting the original intent of The Gov't Land Office to disposition said land?
 What gives GLO legitimacy while BLM is an "alphabet agency"?
Good question. From that line of thinking, then BOTH are/were Alphabet Agencies. However, from a current day perspective, The GLO did not have Armed Enforcers i.e. Troops, that the current day Alphabet Agencies have. (That I am aware of anyway.)
Also, the GLO's stated original intent was to disposition i.e. dispose of land. None of the current Alphabet Agencies are disposing of anything but American's money via their budgets and imposing upon American's Rights and Freedoms.
If you look the history the BLM Is the GLO.
Yea, it sure is.  That was kind of my point. 
So how does the US Geological Survey fit into this?
I am not sure on what question you are asking?

The USGS is still around & once upon a time they were the 'go to' agency when dealing with the land...I'm just lazy & don't wnat to look it up myself! 
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CJE
Reg. Mar 2005
Posted 2014-04-17 12:50 PM
Subject: RE: CONSERVATIVE ADVICE FOR CLIVEN BUNDY



Famous for Not Complaining


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musikmaker - 2014-04-16 1:32 PM
TXBO - 2014-04-17 11:10 AM
jbhoot - 2014-04-17 12:02 PM The BLM is most certainly a police force. After a long history of convoluted jurisdiction Congress granted police authority in 1978. And yes everyone of the Agents that have been pictured dressed as paramilitary has a badge on from the BLM. You really should read up on the history of the present day BLM it is a prime example of how messed up the Federal Government has become. And If you had read the court orders issued in this case you would see NO such authority exists to destroy or dispose of Bundy's property. So it seems that in your mind it is ok for the agents of the BLM violate the court orders but not Bundy. Your stance on this makes zero sense to me.
If I had to choose only three words to describe the BLM it would be bloated, inept and corrupt.
No doubt.



I vividly recall the day the BLM, Forest Service etc...got their 'arms'.  Like most other 'laws' that are passed, the public was unaware until the 'public comment' time was up...you see they didn't arm themselves until much later...after the law had been on the books for however many years. (Although I recall the 'day' in memory, I don't recall the date...).  Just another sneaky tactic.


 

Yesterday on Fox Talk it was brought up that the Sierre Club was also behind and using the BLM as the enforcement of their agenda...........back to the turtles again.......
The Sierra Club is one of the most powerful lobby groups and especially with this president.....
As for the federal land that too was discussed.........yes it is federal land and yes Bundy does own the land lease.......but apparently they way the land was deemed federal vs state was implied to be to the governments favor.......How this playes out will be interesting................

 
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TXBO
Reg. Aug 2009
Posted 2014-04-17 12:54 PM
Subject: RE: CONSERVATIVE ADVICE FOR CLIVEN BUNDY



Googly Goo


Posts: 7053
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musikmaker - 2014-04-17 12:47 PM
jbhoot - 2014-04-17 11:38 AM
musikmaker - 2014-04-17 12:28 PM
TXBO - 2014-04-17 11:17 AM
jbhoot - 2014-04-17 12:11 PM
foundation horse - 2014-04-17 11:45 AM
foundation horse - 2014-04-17 11:43 AM
TXBO - 2014-04-17 11:25 AM
foundation horse - 2014-04-17 10:52 AM   Smiley, are you discounting the original intent of The Gov't Land Office to disposition said land?
 What gives GLO legitimacy while BLM is an "alphabet agency"?
Good question. From that line of thinking, then BOTH are/were Alphabet Agencies. However, from a current day perspective, The GLO did not have Armed Enforcers i.e. Troops, that the current day Alphabet Agencies have. (That I am aware of anyway.)
Also, the GLO's stated original intent was to disposition i.e. dispose of land. None of the current Alphabet Agencies are disposing of anything but American's money via their budgets and imposing upon American's Rights and Freedoms.
If you look the history the BLM Is the GLO.
Yea, it sure is.  That was kind of my point. 
So how does the US Geological Survey fit into this?
I am not sure on what question you are asking?
The USGS is still around & once upon a time they were the 'go to' agency when dealing with the land...I'm just lazy & don't wnat to look it up myself! 

I don't know Musik but survey was one of the original functions of GLO. 
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Bandit94
Reg. Jan 2007
Posted 2014-04-17 12:55 PM
Subject: RE: CONSERVATIVE ADVICE FOR CLIVEN BUNDY



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This was posted on Facebook. I thought it was pretty interesting.

It was posted by Tyler Shilling
So, Spencer and I got arrested (it wasn't detainment) on Thursday. Steven was seconds away from being tased. Since then, I have been asked 'Why would you want t...o protect a tax-evading rancher?' by a number of people, my wife included. The reporting on the situation has been so poor that it's almost impossible to piece together the facts to determine why this was a fight worth fighting. Sorry it's so long; I'm just tired of simplistic arguments that boil down to 'he's a tax cheat' for the haters and vague states' rights arguments from supporters. Anyway, I was initially outraged by the BLM's (Bureau of Land Management) attempt to restrict protests to 20' x 40' "Free Speech Zones". What a joke. This is America. And so I did a little research on the situation and we headed down to the ranch. While there, I talked with the Bundys, and started to get a better picture of the larger issues at stake. The remaining details were filled in during conversations that I had with two BLM officers: an extended one while I was in chains and locked up in a cage in the back of a truck, and the other at church with a friend that supported the Bundys who has also been working as a BLM employee for the past several years as a range management agent. To the best of my knowledge and after many hours of research and discussion, these are the relevant facts and why they matter:
- 1880s: Bundy family begins ranching near Gold Butte, Nevada
- 1946: Bureau of Land Management is formed. "The BLM's stated mission is to sustain the health, diversity and productivity of the public lands for the use and enjoyment of present and future generations"
- 1973: The Endangered Species Act is passed by congress. The stated purpose of the Endangered Species Act is to protect species and also "the ecosystems upon which they depend." After the listing of a species, 'critical habitat' must be provided, 'regardless of economic impact'. Of the 2000 species listed, only 15 have recovered--a ~1% success rate. According to the Fish and Wildlife Service, fewer than 10% of listed species are improving at all. Of the 15 species that have recovered, only 2 of them had a designated 'critical habitat'. There have been very few thorough, quantitative studies on the effectiveness of the law.
-1993: The Gold Butte area is designated a critical habitat for the desert tortoise due to pressure from environmental groups. As a result of this designation, the BLM tells over 50 ranching operations in the area to reduce herd size by 50% or more. The Bundy ranch is told to reduce from 500 to 150 cattle, effectively a 70% reduction in income. THIS is the point where Bundy quit paying his range fees. Nobody can afford that kind of pay cut. I'd quit paying my fees as well if said organization was openly trying to shut me down.
-1998: The ranchers in the area are 'bought out' by the BLM based on the number of cattle they had and all ranching is forbidden. As a result of complying with the BLM instructions from 1993, 50 of the 51 ranchers had fewer than 50% of the cattle they previously owned. Convenient. Cliven Bundy's herd is still growing.
-1998-2013: The BLM brings several court cases against Cliven Bundy. The federal court rules in favor of the federal agency against the Bundys.
-2014: The BLM initiates the cattle roundup costing over $3 million dollars and using BLM agents from as far as Alaska as well as federal agents in full tactical gear with machine guns.
Aside from the 'first amendment zones' that were taken down on Thursday as a result of the Nevada governer commenting on how ridiculous they were, my main concern and reason for protesting is the amount of power that a federal agency (the BLM) has with very little congressional oversight and no elected officials to be accountable for their actions. And, when this powerful, unaccountable agency is openly influenced by environmental lobbyists they have a tendency to steamroll hard working folks who just don't have the time or experience to play the media/politics game. When the Gold Butte area was ruled a 'critical habitat' for the desert tortoise in 1993, that decision directly impacted over 50 ranching operations, several hundred people, and numerous small communities in the area.
Around the same time, in 1998 (the same year that all ranging was completely banned in the Gold Butte area), Harry Reid and John Ensign were sponsoring legislation to remove restrictions on the sale of certain federal wilderness lands in Nevada. In 2002 there was more legislation by Reid called "The Clark County Conservation of Public Land and Natural Resources Act of 2002", that allowed his billionaire donor friend Harvey Whittemore to build Coyote Springs, a real estate development on 10,000 acres of desert tortoise sanctuary. Pretty sketchy stuff--read the wikipedia article on Harvey Whittemore. And, these aren't conspiracy theories--they're fully documented by newspaper articles and public record. So all I'm saying is that the little guy gets run over while the corrupt politicians and businessmen are in bed together. It's not fair and it's not right. Cliven Bundy was completely legal until the BLM demanded that he cut his income by 70%. I've been to the Bundy homestead, and I can tell you that he's definitely not living large--a pay cut like that is essentially a financial death sentence. As I said before, I know that if I were in his shoes I definitely wouldn't pay anything to an agency that was putting me out of business, essentially forcing me to move from a homestead my family had settled almost 140 years before.
Interestingly, just last year the BLM euthanized up to 1000 desert tortoises being kept in a preserve due to a 'lack of funding'. Apparently the 'regardless of economic impact' clause applies to everyone else except the government themselves. Once again, the little guy is expected to play by the rules and the government is able to act however they see fit. Oh, and the current director of the BLM was Harry Reid's senior advisor for many years.
The second major concern revolves around states' rights and the fact that land in the east is owned almost exclusively by the state/privately, while in the West the majority of the land is federally owned. This is the argument the Bundys have focused almost exclusively on. States are promised equal treatment under the constitution. Historically when a state was approved for statehood, the federal government would turn over all land within the state's boundaries with the exception of some small plots of land for military bases or national parks. Yet, when the western states tried to do the same, the US government twisted their arms and forced them to relinquish control of huge swathes of land. 85% of the land in Nevada is owned by the federal government. How is that equal treatment? How is that constitutional? The states tried to protest this in the 'range wars' of the 1970s and 1980s, but (as expected), the federal courts ruled in favor of the federal government. Are we seeing a trend here? There is no system of checks-and-balances for the federal government. And that's what we all need to protest and stand up against. I'll be arrested every day of the week if it helps keep an overreaching, corrupt federal government in check. Oh, and in case you didn't know, yesterday the BLM backed down and left town. This is America.

 
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jbhoot
Reg. Jan 2010
Posted 2014-04-17 12:55 PM
Subject: RE: CONSERVATIVE ADVICE FOR CLIVEN BUNDY



Proud to be Deplorable


Posts: 1929
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musikmaker - 2014-04-17 12:47 PM

jbhoot - 2014-04-17 11:38 AM
musikmaker - 2014-04-17 12:28 PM
TXBO - 2014-04-17 11:17 AM
jbhoot - 2014-04-17 12:11 PM
foundation horse - 2014-04-17 11:45 AM
foundation horse - 2014-04-17 11:43 AM
TXBO - 2014-04-17 11:25 AM
foundation horse - 2014-04-17 10:52 AM   Smiley, are you discounting the original intent of The Gov't Land Office to disposition said land?
 What gives GLO legitimacy while BLM is an "alphabet agency"?
Good question. From that line of thinking, then BOTH are/were Alphabet Agencies. However, from a current day perspective, The GLO did not have Armed Enforcers i.e. Troops, that the current day Alphabet Agencies have. (That I am aware of anyway.)
Also, the GLO's stated original intent was to disposition i.e. dispose of land. None of the current Alphabet Agencies are disposing of anything but American's money via their budgets and imposing upon American's Rights and Freedoms.
If you look the history the BLM Is the GLO.
Yea, it sure is.  That was kind of my point. 
So how does the US Geological Survey fit into this?
I am not sure on what question you are asking?

The USGS is still around & once upon a time they were the 'go to' agency when dealing with the land...I'm just lazy & don't wnat to look it up myself! 

LOL, so you want me to do your home work do ya.........well maybe we'll see HAHAHA
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foundation horse
Reg. Aug 2004
Posted 2014-04-17 1:08 PM
Subject: RE: CONSERVATIVE ADVICE FOR CLIVEN BUNDY


Military family

Semper Fi


5000500050005000500050001000500100100252525
Location: North Texas
Bandit94 - 2014-04-17 12:55 PM

This was posted on Facebook. I thought it was pretty interesting.

It was posted by Tyler Shilling
So, Spencer and I got arrested (it wasn't detainment) on Thursday. Steven was seconds away from being tased. Since then, I have been asked 'Why would you want t...o protect a tax-evading rancher?' by a number of people, my wife included. The reporting on the situation has been so poor that it's almost impossible to piece together the facts to determine why this was a fight worth fighting. Sorry it's so long; I'm just tired of simplistic arguments that boil down to 'he's a tax cheat' for the haters and vague states' rights arguments from supporters. Anyway, I was initially outraged by the BLM's (Bureau of Land Management) attempt to restrict protests to 20' x 40' "Free Speech Zones". What a joke. This is America. And so I did a little research on the situation and we headed down to the ranch. While there, I talked with the Bundys, and started to get a better picture of the larger issues at stake. The remaining details were filled in during conversations that I had with two BLM officers: an extended one while I was in chains and locked up in a cage in the back of a truck, and the other at church with a friend that supported the Bundys who has also been working as a BLM employee for the past several years as a range management agent. To the best of my knowledge and after many hours of research and discussion, these are the relevant facts and why they matter:
- 1880s: Bundy family begins ranching near Gold Butte, Nevada
- 1946: Bureau of Land Management is formed. "The BLM's stated mission is to sustain the health, diversity and productivity of the public lands for the use and enjoyment of present and future generations"
- 1973: The Endangered Species Act is passed by congress. The stated purpose of the Endangered Species Act is to protect species and also "the ecosystems upon which they depend." After the listing of a species, 'critical habitat' must be provided, 'regardless of economic impact'. Of the 2000 species listed, only 15 have recovered--a ~1% success rate. According to the Fish and Wildlife Service, fewer than 10% of listed species are improving at all. Of the 15 species that have recovered, only 2 of them had a designated 'critical habitat'. There have been very few thorough, quantitative studies on the effectiveness of the law.
-1993: The Gold Butte area is designated a critical habitat for the desert tortoise due to pressure from environmental groups. As a result of this designation, the BLM tells over 50 ranching operations in the area to reduce herd size by 50% or more. The Bundy ranch is told to reduce from 500 to 150 cattle, effectively a 70% reduction in income. THIS is the point where Bundy quit paying his range fees. Nobody can afford that kind of pay cut. I'd quit paying my fees as well if said organization was openly trying to shut me down.
-1998: The ranchers in the area are 'bought out' by the BLM based on the number of cattle they had and all ranching is forbidden. As a result of complying with the BLM instructions from 1993, 50 of the 51 ranchers had fewer than 50% of the cattle they previously owned. Convenient. Cliven Bundy's herd is still growing.
-1998-2013: The BLM brings several court cases against Cliven Bundy. The federal court rules in favor of the federal agency against the Bundys.
-2014: The BLM initiates the cattle roundup costing over $3 million dollars and using BLM agents from as far as Alaska as well as federal agents in full tactical gear with machine guns.
Aside from the 'first amendment zones' that were taken down on Thursday as a result of the Nevada governer commenting on how ridiculous they were, my main concern and reason for protesting is the amount of power that a federal agency (the BLM) has with very little congressional oversight and no elected officials to be accountable for their actions. And, when this powerful, unaccountable agency is openly influenced by environmental lobbyists they have a tendency to steamroll hard working folks who just don't have the time or experience to play the media/politics game. When the Gold Butte area was ruled a 'critical habitat' for the desert tortoise in 1993, that decision directly impacted over 50 ranching operations, several hundred people, and numerous small communities in the area.
Around the same time, in 1998 (the same year that all ranging was completely banned in the Gold Butte area), Harry Reid and John Ensign were sponsoring legislation to remove restrictions on the sale of certain federal wilderness lands in Nevada. In 2002 there was more legislation by Reid called "The Clark County Conservation of Public Land and Natural Resources Act of 2002", that allowed his billionaire donor friend Harvey Whittemore to build Coyote Springs, a real estate development on 10,000 acres of desert tortoise sanctuary. Pretty sketchy stuff--read the wikipedia article on Harvey Whittemore. And, these aren't conspiracy theories--they're fully documented by newspaper articles and public record. So all I'm saying is that the little guy gets run over while the corrupt politicians and businessmen are in bed together. It's not fair and it's not right. Cliven Bundy was completely legal until the BLM demanded that he cut his income by 70%. I've been to the Bundy homestead, and I can tell you that he's definitely not living large--a pay cut like that is essentially a financial death sentence. As I said before, I know that if I were in his shoes I definitely wouldn't pay anything to an agency that was putting me out of business, essentially forcing me to move from a homestead my family had settled almost 140 years before.
Interestingly, just last year the BLM euthanized up to 1000 desert tortoises being kept in a preserve due to a 'lack of funding'. Apparently the 'regardless of economic impact' clause applies to everyone else except the government themselves. Once again, the little guy is expected to play by the rules and the government is able to act however they see fit. Oh, and the current director of the BLM was Harry Reid's senior advisor for many years.
The second major concern revolves around states' rights and the fact that land in the east is owned almost exclusively by the state/privately, while in the West the majority of the land is federally owned. This is the argument the Bundys have focused almost exclusively on. States are promised equal treatment under the constitution. Historically when a state was approved for statehood, the federal government would turn over all land within the state's boundaries with the exception of some small plots of land for military bases or national parks. Yet, when the western states tried to do the same, the US government twisted their arms and forced them to relinquish control of huge swathes of land. 85% of the land in Nevada is owned by the federal government. How is that equal treatment? How is that constitutional? The states tried to protest this in the 'range wars' of the 1970s and 1980s, but (as expected), the federal courts ruled in favor of the federal government. Are we seeing a trend here? There is no system of checks-and-balances for the federal government. And that's what we all need to protest and stand up against. I'll be arrested every day of the week if it helps keep an overreaching, corrupt federal government in check. Oh, and in case you didn't know, yesterday the BLM backed down and left town. This is America.

 

Thank you Bandit for posting this. I was already familiar with the majority of the facts presented in this. And I completely agree with Post!
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smiley
Reg. Mar 2004
Posted 2014-04-17 1:08 PM
Subject: RE: CONSERVATIVE ADVICE FOR CLIVEN BUNDY


Grammar Expert


50001001001001002525
jbhoot - 2014-04-17 11:02 AM The BLM is most certainly a police force. After a long history of convoluted jurisdiction Congress granted police authority in 1978. And yes everyone of the Agents that have been pictured dressed as paramilitary has a badge on from the BLM. You really should read up on the history of the present day BLM it is a prime example of how messed up the Federal Government has become. And If you had read the court orders issued in this case you would see NO such authority exists to destroy or dispose of Bundy's property. So it seems that in your mind it is ok for the agents of the BLM violate the court orders but not Bundy. Your stance on this makes zero sense to me.



The BLM has limited agents, and they were the ones you saw in tan shirts and slacks - yes armed. As I said, which one of us would go into the territory they do and not be armed? They cleaned out homemade bombs in the colorado mountains not too long ago in a random tent of some yahoos camping illegally in the forest.

In the videos I saw, the floppy hat, camo, kevlar hatted were NOT BLM. I would venture to stay they are the Nevada National Guard or similar - as I have been around the Guard/military. If you can prove otherwise, I'm always willing to read.
 
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foundation horse
Reg. Aug 2004
Posted 2014-04-17 1:09 PM
Subject: RE: CONSERVATIVE ADVICE FOR CLIVEN BUNDY


Military family

Semper Fi


5000500050005000500050001000500100100252525
Location: North Texas
Bandit94 - 2014-04-17 12:55 PM

This was posted on Facebook. I thought it was pretty interesting.

It was posted by Tyler Shilling
So, Spencer and I got arrested (it wasn't detainment) on Thursday. Steven was seconds away from being tased. Since then, I have been asked 'Why would you want t...o protect a tax-evading rancher?' by a number of people, my wife included. The reporting on the situation has been so poor that it's almost impossible to piece together the facts to determine why this was a fight worth fighting. Sorry it's so long; I'm just tired of simplistic arguments that boil down to 'he's a tax cheat' for the haters and vague states' rights arguments from supporters. Anyway, I was initially outraged by the BLM's (Bureau of Land Management) attempt to restrict protests to 20' x 40' "Free Speech Zones". What a joke. This is America. And so I did a little research on the situation and we headed down to the ranch. While there, I talked with the Bundys, and started to get a better picture of the larger issues at stake. The remaining details were filled in during conversations that I had with two BLM officers: an extended one while I was in chains and locked up in a cage in the back of a truck, and the other at church with a friend that supported the Bundys who has also been working as a BLM employee for the past several years as a range management agent. To the best of my knowledge and after many hours of research and discussion, these are the relevant facts and why they matter:
- 1880s: Bundy family begins ranching near Gold Butte, Nevada
- 1946: Bureau of Land Management is formed. "The BLM's stated mission is to sustain the health, diversity and productivity of the public lands for the use and enjoyment of present and future generations"
- 1973: The Endangered Species Act is passed by congress. The stated purpose of the Endangered Species Act is to protect species and also "the ecosystems upon which they depend." After the listing of a species, 'critical habitat' must be provided, 'regardless of economic impact'. Of the 2000 species listed, only 15 have recovered--a ~1% success rate. According to the Fish and Wildlife Service, fewer than 10% of listed species are improving at all. Of the 15 species that have recovered, only 2 of them had a designated 'critical habitat'. There have been very few thorough, quantitative studies on the effectiveness of the law.
-1993: The Gold Butte area is designated a critical habitat for the desert tortoise due to pressure from environmental groups. As a result of this designation, the BLM tells over 50 ranching operations in the area to reduce herd size by 50% or more. The Bundy ranch is told to reduce from 500 to 150 cattle, effectively a 70% reduction in income. THIS is the point where Bundy quit paying his range fees. Nobody can afford that kind of pay cut. I'd quit paying my fees as well if said organization was openly trying to shut me down.
-1998: The ranchers in the area are 'bought out' by the BLM based on the number of cattle they had and all ranching is forbidden. As a result of complying with the BLM instructions from 1993, 50 of the 51 ranchers had fewer than 50% of the cattle they previously owned. Convenient. Cliven Bundy's herd is still growing.
-1998-2013: The BLM brings several court cases against Cliven Bundy. The federal court rules in favor of the federal agency against the Bundys.
-2014: The BLM initiates the cattle roundup costing over $3 million dollars and using BLM agents from as far as Alaska as well as federal agents in full tactical gear with machine guns.
Aside from the 'first amendment zones' that were taken down on Thursday as a result of the Nevada governer commenting on how ridiculous they were, my main concern and reason for protesting is the amount of power that a federal agency (the BLM) has with very little congressional oversight and no elected officials to be accountable for their actions. And, when this powerful, unaccountable agency is openly influenced by environmental lobbyists they have a tendency to steamroll hard working folks who just don't have the time or experience to play the media/politics game. When the Gold Butte area was ruled a 'critical habitat' for the desert tortoise in 1993, that decision directly impacted over 50 ranching operations, several hundred people, and numerous small communities in the area.
Around the same time, in 1998 (the same year that all ranging was completely banned in the Gold Butte area), Harry Reid and John Ensign were sponsoring legislation to remove restrictions on the sale of certain federal wilderness lands in Nevada. In 2002 there was more legislation by Reid called "The Clark County Conservation of Public Land and Natural Resources Act of 2002", that allowed his billionaire donor friend Harvey Whittemore to build Coyote Springs, a real estate development on 10,000 acres of desert tortoise sanctuary. Pretty sketchy stuff--read the wikipedia article on Harvey Whittemore. And, these aren't conspiracy theories--they're fully documented by newspaper articles and public record. So all I'm saying is that the little guy gets run over while the corrupt politicians and businessmen are in bed together. It's not fair and it's not right. Cliven Bundy was completely legal until the BLM demanded that he cut his income by 70%. I've been to the Bundy homestead, and I can tell you that he's definitely not living large--a pay cut like that is essentially a financial death sentence. As I said before, I know that if I were in his shoes I definitely wouldn't pay anything to an agency that was putting me out of business, essentially forcing me to move from a homestead my family had settled almost 140 years before.
Interestingly, just last year the BLM euthanized up to 1000 desert tortoises being kept in a preserve due to a 'lack of funding'. Apparently the 'regardless of economic impact' clause applies to everyone else except the government themselves. Once again, the little guy is expected to play by the rules and the government is able to act however they see fit. Oh, and the current director of the BLM was Harry Reid's senior advisor for many years.
The second major concern revolves around states' rights and the fact that land in the east is owned almost exclusively by the state/privately, while in the West the majority of the land is federally owned. This is the argument the Bundys have focused almost exclusively on. States are promised equal treatment under the constitution. Historically when a state was approved for statehood, the federal government would turn over all land within the state's boundaries with the exception of some small plots of land for military bases or national parks. Yet, when the western states tried to do the same, the US government twisted their arms and forced them to relinquish control of huge swathes of land. 85% of the land in Nevada is owned by the federal government. How is that equal treatment? How is that constitutional? The states tried to protest this in the 'range wars' of the 1970s and 1980s, but (as expected), the federal courts ruled in favor of the federal government. Are we seeing a trend here? There is no system of checks-and-balances for the federal government. And that's what we all need to protest and stand up against. I'll be arrested every day of the week if it helps keep an overreaching, corrupt federal government in check. Oh, and in case you didn't know, yesterday the BLM backed down and left town. This is America.

 

I have had Harry Reid pegged in this deal up to his eyeballs! And this guys research validates what I have always suspected in regards to Harry Reid.
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smiley
Reg. Mar 2004
Posted 2014-04-17 1:32 PM
Subject: RE: CONSERVATIVE ADVICE FOR CLIVEN BUNDY


Grammar Expert


50001001001001002525
jbhoot - 2014-04-17 11:02 AM The BLM is most certainly a police force. After a long history of convoluted jurisdiction Congress granted police authority in 1978. And yes everyone of the Agents that have been pictured dressed as paramilitary has a badge on from the BLM. You really should read up on the history of the present day BLM it is a prime example of how messed up the Federal Government has become. And If you had read the court orders issued in this case you would see NO such authority exists to destroy or dispose of Bundy's property. So it seems that in your mind it is ok for the agents of the BLM violate the court orders but not Bundy. Your stance on this makes zero sense to me.

Do you have a link to these court orders? No, I'm not advocating for anyone to defy court orders, but I don't think they need a court order to make changes to things that are still on federal property after the owner has had a chance to remove them. Like 20 years.

If I go to a rental house and evict someone and they leave stuff behind, do you think I'm going to take it to them?? Get a storage unit for it?? No, I'm gonna get a roll off and throw it away.
 
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jbhoot
Reg. Jan 2010
Posted 2014-04-17 1:33 PM
Subject: RE: CONSERVATIVE ADVICE FOR CLIVEN BUNDY



Proud to be Deplorable


Posts: 1929
100050010010010010025
smiley - 2014-04-17 1:08 PM

jbhoot - 2014-04-17 11:02 AM The BLM is most certainly a police force. After a long history of convoluted jurisdiction Congress granted police authority in 1978. And yes everyone of the Agents that have been pictured dressed as paramilitary has a badge on from the BLM. You really should read up on the history of the present day BLM it is a prime example of how messed up the Federal Government has become. And If you had read the court orders issued in this case you would see NO such authority exists to destroy or dispose of Bundy's property. So it seems that in your mind it is ok for the agents of the BLM violate the court orders but not Bundy. Your stance on this makes zero sense to me.



The BLM has limited agents, and they were the ones you saw in tan shirts and slacks - yes armed. As I said, which one of us would go into the territory they do and not be armed? They cleaned out homemade bombs in the colorado mountains not too long ago in a random tent of some yahoos camping illegally in the forest.

In the videos I saw, the floppy hat, camo, kevlar hatted were NOT BLM. I would venture to stay they are the Nevada National Guard or similar - as I have been around the Guard/military. If you can prove otherwise, I'm always willing to read.
 

Please You really have no understanding of the laws and jurisdictions you are commenting on. All you have to do is look it up and read. And No they are not part of any military. The national Guard requires an action from the Gov. of Nev. NO such action was taken. And it is very clear in every picture I have seen that all are carrying a badge from the BLM. Most have it on their belts. And no I am not going to do your home work you look it up. Latter I am off to work.
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smiley
Reg. Mar 2004
Posted 2014-04-17 1:36 PM
Subject: RE: CONSERVATIVE ADVICE FOR CLIVEN BUNDY


Grammar Expert


50001001001001002525
CJE - 2014-04-17 11:50 AM
musikmaker - 2014-04-16 1:32 PM
TXBO - 2014-04-17 11:10 AM
jbhoot - 2014-04-17 12:02 PM The BLM is most certainly a police force. After a long history of convoluted jurisdiction Congress granted police authority in 1978. And yes everyone of the Agents that have been pictured dressed as paramilitary has a badge on from the BLM. You really should read up on the history of the present day BLM it is a prime example of how messed up the Federal Government has become. And If you had read the court orders issued in this case you would see NO such authority exists to destroy or dispose of Bundy's property. So it seems that in your mind it is ok for the agents of the BLM violate the court orders but not Bundy. Your stance on this makes zero sense to me.
If I had to choose only three words to describe the BLM it would be bloated, inept and corrupt.
No doubt.



I vividly recall the day the BLM, Forest Service etc...got their 'arms'.  Like most other 'laws' that are passed, the public was unaware until the 'public comment' time was up...you see they didn't arm themselves until much later...after the law had been on the books for however many years. (Although I recall the 'day' in memory, I don't recall the date...).  Just another sneaky tactic.


 
Yesterday on Fox Talk it was brought up that the Sierre Club was also behind and using the BLM as the enforcement of their agenda...........back to the turtles again.......

The Sierra Club is one of the most powerful lobby groups and especially with this president.....

As for the federal land that too was discussed.........yes it is federal land and yes Bundy does own the land lease.......but apparently they way the land was deemed federal vs state was implied to be to the governments favor.......How this playes out will be interesting................


 



Just one small distinction, he CLAIMS to own a lease to the land - he has not proven that in court three times, nor is it provable without a verifiable chain of custody, and then he would still have to go to court over it, just like the Hage family did. 
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smiley
Reg. Mar 2004
Posted 2014-04-17 1:46 PM
Subject: RE: CONSERVATIVE ADVICE FOR CLIVEN BUNDY


Grammar Expert


50001001001001002525
Bandit94 - 2014-04-17 11:55 AM This was posted on Facebook. I thought it was pretty interesting.



It was posted by Tyler Shilling

So, Spencer and I got arrested (it wasn't detainment) on Thursday. Steven was seconds away from being tased. Since then, I have been asked 'Why would you want t...o protect a tax-evading rancher?' by a number of people, my wife included. The reporting on the situation has been so poor that it's almost impossible to piece together the facts to determine why this was a fight worth fighting. Sorry it's so long; I'm just tired of simplistic arguments that boil down to 'he's a tax cheat' for the haters and vague states' rights arguments from supporters. Anyway, I was initially outraged by the BLM's (Bureau of Land Management) attempt to restrict protests to 20' x 40' "Free Speech Zones". What a joke. This is America. And so I did a little research on the situation and we headed down to the ranch. While there, I talked with the Bundys, and started to get a better picture of the larger issues at stake. The remaining details were filled in during conversations that I had with two BLM officers: an extended one while I was in chains and locked up in a cage in the back of a truck, and the other at church with a friend that supported the Bundys who has also been working as a BLM employee for the past several years as a range management agent. To the best of my knowledge and after many hours of research and discussion, these are the relevant facts and why they matter:
- 1880s: Bundy family begins ranching near Gold Butte, Nevada

- 1946: Bureau of Land Management is formed. "The BLM's stated mission is to sustain the health, diversity and productivity of the public lands for the use and enjoyment of present and future generations"

- 1973: The Endangered Species Act is passed by congress. The stated purpose of the Endangered Species Act is to protect species and also "the ecosystems upon which they depend." After the listing of a species, 'critical habitat' must be provided, 'regardless of economic impact'. Of the 2000 species listed, only 15 have recovered--a ~1% success rate. According to the Fish and Wildlife Service, fewer than 10% of listed species are improving at all. Of the 15 species that have recovered, only 2 of them had a designated 'critical habitat'. There have been very few thorough, quantitative studies on the effectiveness of the law.

-1993: The Gold Butte area is designated a critical habitat for the desert tortoise due to pressure from environmental groups. As a result of this designation, the BLM tells over 50 ranching operations in the area to reduce herd size by 50% or more. The Bundy ranch is told to reduce from 500 to 150 cattle, effectively a 70% reduction in income. THIS is the point where Bundy quit paying his range fees. Nobody can afford that kind of pay cut. I'd quit paying my fees as well if said organization was openly trying to shut me down.

-1998: The ranchers in the area are 'bought out' by the BLM based on the number of cattle they had and all ranching is forbidden. As a result of complying with the BLM instructions from 1993, 50 of the 51 ranchers had fewer than 50% of the cattle they previously owned. Convenient. Cliven Bundy's herd is still growing.

-1998-2013: The BLM brings several court cases against Cliven Bundy. The federal court rules in favor of the federal agency against the Bundys.

-2014: The BLM initiates the cattle roundup costing over $3 million dollars and using BLM agents from as far as Alaska as well as federal agents in full tactical gear with machine guns.

Aside from the 'first amendment zones' that were taken down on Thursday as a result of the Nevada governer commenting on how ridiculous they were, my main concern and reason for protesting is the amount of power that a federal agency (the BLM) has with very little congressional oversight and no elected officials to be accountable for their actions. And, when this powerful, unaccountable agency is openly influenced by environmental lobbyists they have a tendency to steamroll hard working folks who just don't have the time or experience to play the media/politics game. When the Gold Butte area was ruled a 'critical habitat' for the desert tortoise in 1993, that decision directly impacted over 50 ranching operations, several hundred people, and numerous small communities in the area.

Around the same time, in 1998 (the same year that all ranging was completely banned in the Gold Butte area), Harry Reid and John Ensign were sponsoring legislation to remove restrictions on the sale of certain federal wilderness lands in Nevada. In 2002 there was more legislation by Reid called "The Clark County Conservation of Public Land and Natural Resources Act of 2002", that allowed his billionaire donor friend Harvey Whittemore to build Coyote Springs, a real estate development on 10,000 acres of desert tortoise sanctuary. Pretty sketchy stuff--read the wikipedia article on Harvey Whittemore. And, these aren't conspiracy theories--they're fully documented by newspaper articles and public record. So all I'm saying is that the little guy gets run over while the corrupt politicians and businessmen are in bed together. It's not fair and it's not right. Cliven Bundy was completely legal until the BLM demanded that he cut his income by 70%. I've been to the Bundy homestead, and I can tell you that he's definitely not living large--a pay cut like that is essentially a financial death sentence. As I said before, I know that if I were in his shoes I definitely wouldn't pay anything to an agency that was putting me out of business, essentially forcing me to move from a homestead my family had settled almost 140 years before.

Interestingly, just last year the BLM euthanized up to 1000 desert tortoises being kept in a preserve due to a 'lack of funding'. Apparently the 'regardless of economic impact' clause applies to everyone else except the government themselves. Once again, the little guy is expected to play by the rules and the government is able to act however they see fit. Oh, and the current director of the BLM was Harry Reid's senior advisor for many years.

The second major concern revolves around states' rights and the fact that land in the east is owned almost exclusively by the state/privately, while in the West the majority of the land is federally owned. This is the argument the Bundys have focused almost exclusively on. States are promised equal treatment under the constitution. Historically when a state was approved for statehood, the federal government would turn over all land within the state's boundaries with the exception of some small plots of land for military bases or national parks. Yet, when the western states tried to do the same, the US government twisted their arms and forced them to relinquish control of huge swathes of land. 85% of the land in Nevada is owned by the federal government. How is that equal treatment? How is that constitutional? The states tried to protest this in the 'range wars' of the 1970s and 1980s, but (as expected), the federal courts ruled in favor of the federal government. Are we seeing a trend here? There is no system of checks-and-balances for the federal government. And that's what we all need to protest and stand up against. I'll be arrested every day of the week if it helps keep an overreaching, corrupt federal government in check. Oh, and in case you didn't know, yesterday the BLM backed down and left town. This is America.




 

The BLM was not "Formed" then, the BLM was the GLO and IT was formed in 1812.

So, if he starts off with wrong facts, then he is simply parroting what he heard from Bundy and family. And that is hardly the truth.

If you stop paying fees, you no longer get to use the land - your reasons why are for the courts to decide, which three times he lost. You can't simply stop paying fees. 

What ranchers were "bought out" by the BLM? I would love to see a title transfer via an assessor's office where it said "John Smith" and then changed to "BLM" - maybe I'm wrong - it happens, but I don't think the BLM bought out anyone, rather I believe they excercised rights over land they already own (states ownership being a whole other ball of wax).

This stupid round up did not cost $3 mill, I believe that is what they have set aside for it, as that is what it cost in the 90s for the Hage ranch. To date, I've read in several places they have expended less than a million = STILL a ridiculous amount of money.

The BLM does have oversight by an elected official - the PRESIDENT. You want hte BLM gone, vote in a president that wants the same.

I've already argued the cut in numbers of cattle - the BLM is not your enemy the environmentalists are. The kicker in this "article" is where he says that Bundy wasn't illegal until . . . . So, I didn't steal that car until I needed one - I'm still gonna get arrested.

The Turtles that were put down - from what I read - was due to the turtle conservancy going out of business and they dumped the turtles on the BLM and they put down sick and old ones. 

That's where I stopped. This may very well get the states off their *sses to do something or it might not, but it's not Bundy's fight. He is illegal and has been for some time and even right up to the point the helicopter got there, he had a choice to get his own cattle off the land.

This is NOT like the case in texas where deeded land, provable deeded land, is I believe trying to be taken away. WHy don't we find those cases and discuss their merits. Why don't we discuss the court cases already in the works for states to try to get the land from the feds? Why don't we find the rez story about turning their land into a national park?

I'm over bundy, he's a POS who has had his 15 minutes of fame. I don't care why you think they are raising money, to me it's tacky and wrong.

yes, this is America and you think when you fill out a job application and it asks if you've ever been arrested they give a hot chit what your misguided reasons for being arrested were??


 
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