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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 464
 
| I agree, it is not right. I have roped donkeys for years in practice, for both heading, and healing. I will go to the horn "occasionally" with a break away honda on.
The truth about team roping and tripping:
In my opinion, if you roped something besides corriente, and longhorn cattle you would see a bunch injured.
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 Goat Giver
Posts: 23166
  
| CE's wrapn3 - 2014-01-24 8:18 AM I personally wouldn't do it. .Do you believe in calf roping? They rope them by the neck, they get whip lash then pulled up by the flank and thrown to the ground but you can't rope a horse by its front legs? I'm just curious what you think?
^^^^^^
This......don't be a hypocrite. If it's ok to rope cattle, it should be ok to rope horses. The goal of a good catch in tripping is to stun the steer enough so it doesn't fight. Now why don't we see that at the NFR?????
I am neither for nor against either activity, but if you start making rules and laws, be prepared for someone to decide it's cruel to make a horse run around three barrels someday. | |
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 Veteran
Posts: 223
Location: Idaho | grinandbareit - 2014-01-24 2:53 PM
Jethro - 2014-01-24 12:28 PM
barrelracr131 - 2014-01-24 10:23 AM
crapshooter - 2014-01-24 12:21 PM barrelracr131 - 2014-01-24 10:08 AM crapshooter - 2014-01-24 12:00 PM It's called Big Loop and yes it's a tradition, google big loop rodeo
 do they normally flip the horses like that, or have them pass out and start thrashing?Â
It's a timed event, so sometimes the rope comes tight fast and they fall. Generally they try not to. It stems from the ranch practice of roping and front footing colts to lay them down to geld and brand. Wrecks do happen in this event, but the goal is not to hurt the horses. Sensationalized videos can make any event look bad. I'm not saying I necessarily like horse roping as an event, but take what you see in that video with a grain of salt. There are people in all events who abuse animals and behave poorly, doesn't mean everyone does or that it's common practice.
REALLY??? Wow! There is ZERO justification for this. And it baffles me that anyone can attempt to justify the practice or sport of it, in any way shape or form. They should be arrested for animal cruelty. They are doing this for sport. So I suppose that people who grew up with cock fighting, dog fighting, etc⌠Heck, I'm sure some of our descendants owned slaves, guess that was okay too. And don't spin it to read, I'm comparing this to slavery, because I'm not. I'm saying that at some point we need to evolve as human beings and do what is right instead of what is profitable. When things are done as a necessary evil in the field, it is done for the well being of that animal⌠Not as a sport. There is a huge difference! These events exploit these animals, PERIOD.
It is moronic to agree to allow this to happen for the sake of "tradition".
Oh⌠let me add this brief video of horse tripping - it begins one minute into the video - dang sharks! THEY always make us look bad! Can't believe they could actually make this stuff public. I'd like to continue to play stupid and pretend it doesn't really happen. HMMMMM.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmp8pkbU03I
Team roping and calf roping are sports too. They are all livestock, so by your logic, everyone that enters a rodeo should be arrested for animal cruelty.
I don't appreciate being called moronic for giving some background on a sport. I was also talking about the sanctioned events, not the guys in this video who appear to be roping weaner colts or the like.
If you don't think there are sensationalized videos out there to make rodeo look bad, then you are the one with your head in the sand. | |
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 Expert
Posts: 4121
Location: SE Louisiana | kmcsunshine - 2014-01-24 5:30 PM
CE's wrapn3 - 2014-01-24 8:18 AM  I personally wouldn't do it. .Do you believe in calf roping? They rope them by the neck, they get whip lash then pulled up by the flank and thrown to the ground but you can't rope a horse by its front legs? I'm just curious what you think?
^^^^^^
This......don't be a hypocrite. Â If it's ok to rope cattle, it should be ok to rope horses. Â The goal of a good catch in tripping is to stun the steer enough so it doesn't fight. Â Now why don't we see that at the NFR?????
I am neither for nor against either activity, but if you start making rules and laws, be prepared for someone to decide it's cruel to make a horse run around three barrels someday.Â
Now you see? This is what I'm talking about. Horses are much more fragile than cattle, as we all know by how much time and money it takes to keep one healthy enough to do your particular event. I suggest people that think like you do allow your own special horses to be hotshotted in a box and turned loose to be roped in one of these events. And I'll say it once again, justifying this treatment because you're worried it might carry back to your own event is just BS. Perhaps if people like you would take a stand against SOMEFIRGGINGTHING, the animal lovers would not see you the way they do. I don't care what the goal is, we've all seen what can happen. These people claim the horses do not get hurt but they will have people with cameras arrested for filming it! What are they worried about? Animals get hurt at regular rodeos and races of different kinds and not only don't worry about them being filmed, they put it on TV. NOT these people!! They have cops standing by to haul you off to jail.
There is absolutely NO just justification for treating horses in this fashion for SPORT!!
Edited by komet. 2014-01-24 7:38 PM
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 Shelter Dog Lover
Posts: 10277
| komet. - 2014-01-24 7:36 PM kmcsunshine - 2014-01-24 5:30 PM CE's wrapn3 - 2014-01-24 8:18 AM I personally wouldn't do it. .Do you believe in calf roping? They rope them by the neck, they get whip lash then pulled up by the flank and thrown to the ground but you can't rope a horse by its front legs? I'm just curious what you think? ^^^^^^
This......don't be a hypocrite. If it's ok to rope cattle, it should be ok to rope horses. The goal of a good catch in tripping is to stun the steer enough so it doesn't fight. Now why don't we see that at the NFR?????
I am neither for nor against either activity, but if you start making rules and laws, be prepared for someone to decide it's cruel to make a horse run around three barrels someday. Now you see? This is what I'm talking about. Horses are much more fragile than cattle, as we all know by how much time and money it takes to keep one healthy enough to do your particular event. I suggest people that think like you do allow your own special horses to be hotshotted in a box and turned loose to be roped in one of these events. And I'll say it once again, justifying this treatment because you're worried it might carry back to your own event is just BS. Perhaps if people like you would take a stand against SOMEFIRGGINGTHING, the animal lovers would not see you the way they do. I don't care what the goal is, we've all seen what can happen. These people claim the horses do not get hurt but they will have people with cameras arrested for filming it! What are they worried about? Animals get hurt at regular rodeos and races of different kinds and not only don't worry about them being filmed, they put it on TV. NOT these people!! They have cops standing by to haul you off to jail. There is absolutely NO just justification for treating horses in this fashion for SPORT!!
I agree with Komet on this one, turning your head because they may come after barrel racing is no excuse and wrong. It would give our sport more of a pro-animal stance if something were done about unnecessary cruelty in the name of tradition or sport. | |
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  Warmblood with Wings
Posts: 27846
Location: Florida.. | komet. - 2014-01-24 8:36 PM kmcsunshine - 2014-01-24 5:30 PM CE's wrapn3 - 2014-01-24 8:18 AM I personally wouldn't do it. .Do you believe in calf roping? They rope them by the neck, they get whip lash then pulled up by the flank and thrown to the ground but you can't rope a horse by its front legs? I'm just curious what you think? ^^^^^^
This......don't be a hypocrite. If it's ok to rope cattle, it should be ok to rope horses. The goal of a good catch in tripping is to stun the steer enough so it doesn't fight. Now why don't we see that at the NFR?????
I am neither for nor against either activity, but if you start making rules and laws, be prepared for someone to decide it's cruel to make a horse run around three barrels someday. Now you see? This is what I'm talking about. Horses are much more fragile than cattle, as we all know by how much time and money it takes to keep one healthy enough to do your particular event. I suggest people that think like you do allow your own special horses to be hotshotted in a box and turned loose to be roped in one of these events. And I'll say it once again, justifying this treatment because you're worried it might carry back to your own event is just BS. Perhaps if people like you would take a stand against SOMEFIRGGINGTHING, the animal lovers would not see you the way they do. I don't care what the goal is, we've all seen what can happen. These people claim the horses do not get hurt but they will have people with cameras arrested for filming it! What are they worried about? Animals get hurt at regular rodeos and races of different kinds and not only don't worry about them being filmed, they put it on TV. NOT these people!! They have cops standing by to haul you off to jail. There is absolutely NO just justification for treating horses in this fashion for SPORT!!
god I agree with Komet. taking a stand againist abuse or cruel activity to animals is something we have to do .. to be scared to say anything for fear it will have consequences on sports that arent Physically abusive is exactly what they want.theres a fine line . no matter how you word it. | |
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 Always Off Topic
Posts: 6382
Location: ND | komet. - 2014-01-24 7:36 PM kmcsunshine - 2014-01-24 5:30 PM CE's wrapn3 - 2014-01-24 8:18 AM I personally wouldn't do it. .Do you believe in calf roping? They rope them by the neck, they get whip lash then pulled up by the flank and thrown to the ground but you can't rope a horse by its front legs? I'm just curious what you think? ^^^^^^
This......don't be a hypocrite. If it's ok to rope cattle, it should be ok to rope horses. The goal of a good catch in tripping is to stun the steer enough so it doesn't fight. Now why don't we see that at the NFR?????
I am neither for nor against either activity, but if you start making rules and laws, be prepared for someone to decide it's cruel to make a horse run around three barrels someday. Now you see? This is what I'm talking about. Horses are much more fragile than cattle, as we all know by how much time and money it takes to keep one healthy enough to do your particular event. I suggest people that think like you do allow your own special horses to be hotshotted in a box and turned loose to be roped in one of these events. And I'll say it once again, justifying this treatment because you're worried it might carry back to your own event is just BS. Perhaps if people like you would take a stand against SOMEFIRGGINGTHING, the animal lovers would not see you the way they do. I don't care what the goal is, we've all seen what can happen. These people claim the horses do not get hurt but they will have people with cameras arrested for filming it! What are they worried about? Animals get hurt at regular rodeos and races of different kinds and not only don't worry about them being filmed, they put it on TV. NOT these people!! They have cops standing by to haul you off to jail. There is absolutely NO just justification for treating horses in this fashion for SPORT!!
you're the last idiot that should be telling anyone to take a stand against anything........lol | |
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Expert
Posts: 4121
Location: SE Louisiana | dhdqhllc - 2014-01-24 7:42 PM
komet. - 2014-01-24 7:36 PM kmcsunshine - 2014-01-24 5:30 PM CE's wrapn3 - 2014-01-24 8:18 AM  I personally wouldn't do it. .Do you believe in calf roping? They rope them by the neck, they get whip lash then pulled up by the flank and thrown to the ground but you can't rope a horse by its front legs? I'm just curious what you think? ^^^^^^
This......don't be a hypocrite. Â If it's ok to rope cattle, it should be ok to rope horses. Â The goal of a good catch in tripping is to stun the steer enough so it doesn't fight. Â Now why don't we see that at the NFR?????
I am neither for nor against either activity, but if you start making rules and laws, be prepared for someone to decide it's cruel to make a horse run around three barrels someday. Now you see? This is what I'm talking about. Horses are much more fragile than cattle, as we all know by how much time and money it takes to keep one healthy enough to do your particular event. I suggest people that think like you do allow your own special horses to be hotshotted in a box and turned loose to be roped in one of these events. And I'll say it once again, justifying this treatment because you're worried it might carry back to your own event is just BS. Perhaps if people like you would take a stand against SOMEFIRGGINGTHING, the animal lovers would not see you the way they do. I don't care what the goal is, we've all seen what can happen. These people claim the horses do not get hurt but they will have people with cameras arrested for filming it! What are they worried about? Animals get hurt at regular rodeos and races of different kinds and not only don't worry about them being filmed, they put it on TV. NOT these people!! They have cops standing by to haul you off to jail. There is absolutely NO just justification for treating horses in this fashion for SPORT!!
This is a great argument.. insults and innuendos. | |
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 Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | There's always been a difference between the Vaquero style of horsemanship, the cowboy, the buckaroos etc...from dress to tack...so perhaps the plains cowboys HAD to rope wild horses cuz they didn't have the terrain like we do in the southwest where they could run them into corrals...they'd still have to rope them. Just not quite like that. Not for sport...necessity, yes. When all else fails.
At least that was the 'tradition' in my family...from the southwest.
Horses & cattle are nothing alike, as we all know...they don't think alike & aren't built alike.
I appreciate all the knowledge & answers...I was shocked and curious as I've never heard of this & kinda resent those guys in the video saying it's a cowboy tradition as if 'everybody' did it that way. No they didn't. And don't.
Regardless, there sure isn't an excuse to continue with it. Imo.
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 Go For It!
Location: Texas | Jethro - 2014-01-24 6:53 PM
grinandbareit - 2014-01-24 2:53 PM
Jethro - 2014-01-24 12:28 PM
barrelracr131 - 2014-01-24 10:23 AM
crapshooter - 2014-01-24 12:21 PM barrelracr131 - 2014-01-24 10:08 AM crapshooter - 2014-01-24 12:00 PM It's called Big Loop and yes it's a tradition, google big loop rodeo
 do they normally flip the horses like that, or have them pass out and start thrashing?Â
It's a timed event, so sometimes the rope comes tight fast and they fall. Generally they try not to. It stems from the ranch practice of roping and front footing colts to lay them down to geld and brand. Wrecks do happen in this event, but the goal is not to hurt the horses. Sensationalized videos can make any event look bad. I'm not saying I necessarily like horse roping as an event, but take what you see in that video with a grain of salt. There are people in all events who abuse animals and behave poorly, doesn't mean everyone does or that it's common practice.
REALLY??? Wow! There is ZERO justification for this. And it baffles me that anyone can attempt to justify the practice or sport of it, in any way shape or form. They should be arrested for animal cruelty. They are doing this for sport. So I suppose that people who grew up with cock fighting, dog fighting, etc⌠Heck, I'm sure some of our descendants owned slaves, guess that was okay too. And don't spin it to read, I'm comparing this to slavery, because I'm not. I'm saying that at some point we need to evolve as human beings and do what is right instead of what is profitable. When things are done as a necessary evil in the field, it is done for the well being of that animal⌠Not as a sport. There is a huge difference! These events exploit these animals, PERIOD.
It is moronic to agree to allow this to happen for the sake of "tradition".
Oh⌠let me add this brief video of horse tripping - it begins one minute into the video - dang sharks! THEY always make us look bad! Can't believe they could actually make this stuff public. I'd like to continue to play stupid and pretend it doesn't really happen. HMMMMM.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmp8pkbU03I
Team roping and calf roping are sports too. They are all livestock, so by your logic, everyone that enters a rodeo should be arrested for animal cruelty.
I don't appreciate being called moronic for giving some background on a sport. I was also talking about the sanctioned events, not the guys in this video who appear to be roping weaner colts or the like.
If you don't think there are sensationalized videos out there to make rodeo look bad, then you are the one with your head in the sand.
I said those that accept it or justify it as tradition, are moronic. If the shoe fits, wear it. If you don't accept it, then just say so. If you think it's okay, then as far as I'm concerned, you're a moron. JMO.
mo¡ron
'môr?än/
nouninformal
1.
a stupid person.
synonyms: fool, idiot, ass, blockhead, dunce, dolt, ignoramus, imbecile, cretin, dullard, simpleton, clod; More
antonyms: genius
Origin
early 20th cent. (as a medical term denoting an adult with a mental age of about 8â12): from Greek moron, neuter of moros âfoolish.â
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Go For It!
Location: Texas | grinandbareit - 2014-01-24 10:59 PM
Jethro - 2014-01-24 6:53 PM
grinandbareit - 2014-01-24 2:53 PM
Jethro - 2014-01-24 12:28 PM
barrelracr131 - 2014-01-24 10:23 AM
crapshooter - 2014-01-24 12:21 PM barrelracr131 - 2014-01-24 10:08 AM crapshooter - 2014-01-24 12:00 PM It's called Big Loop and yes it's a tradition, google big loop rodeo
 do they normally flip the horses like that, or have them pass out and start thrashing?Â
It's a timed event, so sometimes the rope comes tight fast and they fall. Generally they try not to. It stems from the ranch practice of roping and front footing colts to lay them down to geld and brand. Wrecks do happen in this event, but the goal is not to hurt the horses. Sensationalized videos can make any event look bad. I'm not saying I necessarily like horse roping as an event, but take what you see in that video with a grain of salt. There are people in all events who abuse animals and behave poorly, doesn't mean everyone does or that it's common practice.
REALLY??? Wow! There is ZERO justification for this. And it baffles me that anyone can attempt to justify the practice or sport of it, in any way shape or form. They should be arrested for animal cruelty. They are doing this for sport. So I suppose that people who grew up with cock fighting, dog fighting, etc⌠Heck, I'm sure some of our descendants owned slaves, guess that was okay too. And don't spin it to read, I'm comparing this to slavery, because I'm not. I'm saying that at some point we need to evolve as human beings and do what is right instead of what is profitable. When things are done as a necessary evil in the field, it is done for the well being of that animal⌠Not as a sport. There is a huge difference! These events exploit these animals, PERIOD.
It is moronic to agree to allow this to happen for the sake of "tradition".
Oh⌠let me add this brief video of horse tripping - it begins one minute into the video - dang sharks! THEY always make us look bad! Can't believe they could actually make this stuff public. I'd like to continue to play stupid and pretend it doesn't really happen. HMMMMM.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmp8pkbU03I
Team roping and calf roping are sports too. They are all livestock, so by your logic, everyone that enters a rodeo should be arrested for animal cruelty.
I don't appreciate being called moronic for giving some background on a sport. I was also talking about the sanctioned events, not the guys in this video who appear to be roping weaner colts or the like.
If you don't think there are sensationalized videos out there to make rodeo look bad, then you are the one with your head in the sand.
I said those that accept it or justify it as tradition, are moronic. If the shoe fits, wear it. If you don't accept it, then just say so. If you think it's okay, then as far as I'm concerned, you're a moron. JMO.
mo¡ron
'môr?än/
nouninformal
1.
a stupid person.
synonyms: fool, idiot, ass, blockhead, dunce, dolt, ignoramus, imbecile, cretin, dullard, simpleton, clod; More
antonyms: genius
Origin
early 20th cent. (as a medical term denoting an adult with a mental age of about 8â12 ): from Greek moron, neuter of moros âfoolish.â
And don't even get me started on rodeo. I've been to thousands of rodeos and sale barns in my life and I see plenty of abuse. It's just sad. Honestly, I do have reservations about the roping events and I think steer tripping and the wild horse race should be banned. I can't stand to go to a sale barn anymore because those guys irritate the crap out of me. A lot of what they do is totally unnecessary.
And that's enough drama for me today. ;-)
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| Just a bunch of vicious minded YAHOO's choking horses down trying to play Mexican Rodeo!!
Cowboy tradition .. my a$$ ...
the wild horse saddling // ride is standard rodeo ...
Mexican Rodeo's and this horse roping crap have no place on American soil ... each of these yahoo's should be tracked down .. fined $1000 and their roping horses, trucks and trailers impounded!!
I bet you the majority of those participating still live at home on grandpa's ranch which only survives with long term leases on federal land .... they show no respect for anything because they do not own anything themselves .... grrrrrrr
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 Toastest with the Mostest
Posts: 5712
Location: That part of Texas | In the laws that I have seen from various states regulating this stuff, there are usually provisions that allow for the roping of horses for doctoring/medical/health reasons that would cover most "legit" purposes for doing so. I don't have a problem with the way they are written because I think they strike a good balance between what's good and what's bad. This type of event is definitely not a tradition in our family. | |
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 Veteran
Posts: 137
Location: ILLINOIS | That looks a little rough on the horses.. :( | |
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 Veteran
Posts: 227
Location: Soon to be outta here:) | I think we have to be very careful what we say about rodeo and how much stock we can place on videos that the media puts out. Any event that has to do with animals can be considered cruel depending on who watches it and what parts they see. A quick Google search of barrel racing abuse brings up this article
http://www.writingofriding.com/in-the-media/do-barrel-racers-cross-...
It says that its the worst sport in the horse world, the video shows horses rearing and falling. We all know that this is the bad side of our sport and that most runs don't go like this. If someone were to only see that video and know nothing else about it, they would assume barrel racing is an abusive sport. Same with calf roping. If you had no knowledge of the rules put into place, and just saw one of those shark videos about the abuse, you would assume that calf roping is terrible and abusive to the animals. As lots of people have admitted, they've never heard of this. So they don't know if this happened every run, or if just like barrel racing, the ones that were shown on the video were Exceptions not rules.
Personally I did not like watching that video. I thought it was terrible, especially the parts where they are cutting off the air supply. But I can't say its any worse than watching something go wrong with a roper or a steer wrestler or a bucking horse or a barrel horse that falls and gets hurt. Its all hard to watch.
I don't condone this by any means, but I think we have to be careful on what we believe and how quick we are to make judgments. Our sport can be made to look and sound ridiculously abusive to the horses too if people don't understand. If we don't want people out there judging what we do without doing adequate research and really understanding it, we also shouldn't do it to others, until we really know what we are talking about and understand it more. If we don't want others to do it to us, we can't do it to them. | |
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Goat Giver
Posts: 23166
| komet. - 2014-01-24 7:36 PM kmcsunshine - 2014-01-24 5:30 PM CE's wrapn3 - 2014-01-24 8:18 AM I personally wouldn't do it. .Do you believe in calf roping? They rope them by the neck, they get whip lash then pulled up by the flank and thrown to the ground but you can't rope a horse by its front legs? I'm just curious what you think? ^^^^^^
This......don't be a hypocrite. If it's ok to rope cattle, it should be ok to rope horses. The goal of a good catch in tripping is to stun the steer enough so it doesn't fight. Now why don't we see that at the NFR?????
I am neither for nor against either activity, but if you start making rules and laws, be prepared for someone to decide it's cruel to make a horse run around three barrels someday. Now you see? This is what I'm talking about. Horses are much more fragile than cattle, as we all know by how much time and money it takes to keep one healthy enough to do your particular event. I suggest people that think like you do allow your own special horses to be hotshotted in a box and turned loose to be roped in one of these events. And I'll say it once again, justifying this treatment because you're worried it might carry back to your own event is just BS. Perhaps if people like you would take a stand against SOMEFIRGGINGTHING, the animal lovers would not see you the way they do. I don't care what the goal is, we've all seen what can happen. These people claim the horses do not get hurt but they will have people with cameras arrested for filming it! What are they worried about? Animals get hurt at regular rodeos and races of different kinds and not only don't worry about them being filmed, they put it on TV. NOT these people!! They have cops standing by to haul you off to jail. There is absolutely NO just justification for treating horses in this fashion for SPORT!!
Komet, I had special cattle too. I think all roping is cruel. Sue me. On the ranch sometimes we did have to rope something.....maybe to save its life. However, we avoided it whenever possible and never roped for sport. | |
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My Heelers are Heroes
Posts: 4685
| I vote very cruel and mean.
Those wanting to compare to calf roping. In calf roping it is not all that common to break the calf's legs. Yes, I know it does happen but not on a regular basis.
In this horse roping it is very common to break legs. I wouldn't be surprised to find out it happens at every event.
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Warmblood with Wings
Posts: 27846
Location: Florida.. | LDH - 2014-01-25 2:08 PM I think we have to be very careful what we say about rodeo and how much stock we can place on videos that the media puts out. Any event that has to do with animals can be considered cruel depending on who watches it and what parts they see. A quick Google search of barrel racing abuse brings up this article http://www.writingofriding.com/in-the-media/do-barrel-racers-cross-... It says that its the worst sport in the horse world, the video shows horses rearing and falling. We all know that this is the bad side of our sport and that most runs don't go like this. If someone were to only see that video and know nothing else about it, they would assume barrel racing is an abusive sport. Same with calf roping. If you had no knowledge of the rules put into place, and just saw one of those shark videos about the abuse, you would assume that calf roping is terrible and abusive to the animals. As lots of people have admitted, they've never heard of this. So they don't know if this happened every run, or if just like barrel racing, the ones that were shown on the video were Exceptions not rules. Personally I did not like watching that video. I thought it was terrible, especially the parts where they are cutting off the air supply. But I can't say its any worse than watching something go wrong with a roper or a steer wrestler or a bucking horse or a barrel horse that falls and gets hurt. Its all hard to watch. I don't condone this by any means, but I think we have to be careful on what we believe and how quick we are to make judgments. Our sport can be made to look and sound ridiculously abusive to the horses too if people don't understand. If we don't want people out there judging what we do without doing adequate research and really understanding it, we also shouldn't do it to others, until we really know what we are talking about and understand it more. If we don't want others to do it to us, we can't do it to them.
I 100% Disagree | |
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| http://www.biglooprodeo.com//
Here is the website for the Jordon Valley Big Loop | |
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Always Off Topic
Posts: 6382
Location: ND |
i don't think that some of the posters on this thread are gonna change some of their overly western heritage knowledged comments .......but i'm glad this was added.....
and i'm not referring to the debate about whether this is cruel or not nor whether it should be continued......only to those that seem to know so much about real western heritage.... | |
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Folks on-line