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 Googly Goo
Posts: 7053
  
| Three 4 Luck - 2014-04-13 3:39 PM TXBO - 2014-04-13 3:26 PM Three 4 Luck - 2014-04-13 3:19 PM TXBO - 2014-04-13 3:03 PM When you have ever expanding laws and regulation, a growing praetorian class is inevitable. 
That would be a good start. | |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 962
 
| FOUNDATION HORSE: What about you MRS Finney? Marry an existing ranching?! See "I" know more about you than you do me................................I kinda like research. And I know somewhat about your origins.
MUSIKMAKER: This is why ignorant people shouldn't claim an opinion.
FOUNDATION HORSE: And MRS JOE Finney continually proves HER abundance of Ignorance in regards World Affairs and ESPECIALLY in regards to Constitutional Matters.
GOGAITED: Your blindness to the real issues here is appalling. And it scares me how many people think like you do.
DHDQHLLC: honestly, i've yet to figure out how Finney's didn't make it on the spread they had in NE.....
FOUNDATION HORSE: Something about Cold Weather is what my sources indicate.
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FOUNDATION HORSE: My POINT is Mrs Joe Finney is the #2 Mrs. She married an existing rancher and did not help build that ranch but married into an existing ranch. MRS. Finney was smart enough to ascertain EXACTLY what I was implying and to date has decided to decline to reply.
Like I previously stated, knowing people and being capable of doing research coupled w/ critical thinking skills can be a good thing.
TXBO: I actually agree with just about everything she said. (thanks, Moses)
HOTBEARLVR: Y'all scared her off. Shame on you.... (hiya, Doc. Been awhile.)
FOUNDATION HORSE: Shame on 'us'? Okay I see your point. MRS Finney is famous for copy 'n paste hit 'n run posts. Her MO has been documented over her tenure here.
She just attempts to drop bombs and then run. However, there are many here who can and will go toe to toe w/ and she cannot stand the heat so to speak. So she heats up the kitchen and then leaves.
Kind of ugly when you see them all together like that, aren't they (not TXBO)?
My dad was a rancher. He didn’t own land, but he managed a 1200 cow ranch for 45 years. I was with him from the time I could walk till I graduated college and had to go out and pave my own way. He was a man of strong opinions, and not afraid to share them, face to face. That is probably why I hate it when people make comments hiding behind a nickname, and why I don’t do that. I respected him more than any other man I knew, besides maybe Mr. Joe Finney. People think what they want to, and mainly like a good, gossipy story. They are way more exciting than real life, in most instances, and you can just keep adding more things to keep it interesting the more times you tell it. Pretty soon, nothing is too outlandish to add. Mostly, we just laugh and wonder. However, my common soul is disturbed by all of the hate mongering that probably went on for more years than I am old, but for some reason seems especially bad since 2008. So I am going to take this opportunity to share some personal information that a couple of peoples’ research might not have uncovered. I do it to prove my point that some things are not always what they seem, something that I am betting the Bundy Family has not shared with their supporters.
As I told you before, my Dad was a ranch manager. He gave his heart and soul for a long time to an absentee owner that, when he died, his family gave my Dad an old “Park Avenue” car the old guy had. My mom and dad loved that car. Drove it till it passed on. I guess I wasn’t as attached to the ranch as my Dad, because when I would ask him why he didn’t ask for a raise, he would say “I guess if they think I’m worth it, they will give me one.” When I would ask why he didn’t look for a higher paying job, he would just give me a look that said “Don’t go there.” He loved that place. The wealthy owner donated it to the Catholic Church and they sold it to a rich Texan who wanted a place to hunt prairie chickens. He bought several of the neighbors’ places as well. I’m glad my Dad and Mom didn’t live to see that. Like I said, I moved on after college, but they stayed there. I wasn’t there the day he had a massive stroke while getting ready to ship calves. He missed his favorite day of the year, calf selling day. He was always so proud of them. We took him off life support that day. Like I said, I had moved on. With the help of a FSA loan, I had bought my own ranch at Thedford, NE. My son was in 7th grade and I wanted a better life for him. He was in the same grade as Mr. Joe Finney’s next door neighbor girl. Since both of us had made a bad first choice, we were a little hesitant to make a match, but similar backgrounds and values drew us together, and I became MRS. Joe Finney. Mr. Joe Finney was three years into a contentious divorce from a high school teacher that liked younger men, a lot younger if you know what I mean. They had been married nearly twenty years, but anybody that has ever divorced in a no fault divorce state after that period of time will understand that when I say she got half the ranch that I’m not exaggerating. She wanted her half in cash. I sold my place but it wasn’t enough. We could try to keep our heads above water by selling off a piece at a time, but as much as Mr. Joe Finney loved his place, he is a practical man. We sold it to a richTexan, Texas is evidently full of them, and moved to Oklahoma. I guess we figured our financial woes were really not any one’s business (dhdqhllc) so we just told them we wanted to go some place warmer. I love Oklahoma. Mr. Joe Finney at that point really didn’t care. We bought a ranch down there, and yes we had a mortgage and land taxes that both of us work to pay (Foundation Horse). The Federal and state lease allotments were all taken. Fortunately, another rich Texan showed up in our future and we sold the ranch in Oklahoma before oil wells covered up all of the grass. We are back in Nebraska now at a new place, although I still have a small place down south (it’s warmer there, you know). Mr. Joe Finney is happier here. Although the Sandhills will always be in his heart, he has adapted better than any man I know to a changing way of life, all the while coping with more changes than many people will know in a lifetime without one word of complaint. Who wouldn’t want to marry this guy (Foundation Horse)?
So bottom line, the next time, when you all speculate and make judgments on things you really know nothing about (both sides of the Bundy Saga would be a good place to start), recognize that some things are not always what they seem.
PS: Toe to Toe in a battle of wits with an unarmed combatant is not my style. Thank the good Doctor for the answers to your questions. At least he’s not afraid to hide behind a picture (oh, Wait…)
POINTS TO PONDER:
1. Conservatives love to talk about free market enterprise and big government ruining things. How long, in a free market ranching enterprise, would a renter be allowed to run cattle on grass he didn’t pay for, regardless of the alterations that the owner stipulates? If you answered “Zero Days” you would be correct and the owner can confiscate the cattle until the bill is paid. My question to the government is why didn’t you kick him off years ago?
2. Why aren’t the militia and conservative media lining the driveways of ranchers who are the legitimate owners of the places TransCanada is getting ready to condemn for a pipeline over a giant aquifer that sustains the entire central US? A foreign oil company given permission to take land away from a tax paying, US citizen against their will? But conservatives are ok with that?
I guess if I wasn’t so ignorant (Musikmaker) I would know the answer.
From now on, let's stay on the point. If the Bundys don't want to pay for a lease, why don't they give it up to someone that does before someone gets killed. | |
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  Warmblood with Wings
Posts: 27846
Location: Florida.. | truth be known and I may regret saying this but I saw no reason to be so bold to finney for stating opinions and a few facts .. Shes only doing what others are doing on another thread and all over facebook. media frenzy . facts, statements etc.. we all have our thoughts . | |
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 Accident Prone
Posts: 22277
Location: 100 miles from Nowhere, AR | Finney, you've always gotten on my nerves, but IMO you shouldn't have felt like you had to defend your personal life that way. I'm sorry you felt like you needed to do that.
That said, this particular case has opened up some dialogue that needed to take place and brought to light some cases that are much more cut and dried where you cannot argue justice is being served. I wonder how different things would be if the ranchers had had a way to communicate like we do now, where they could have more easily banded together to say NO at the beginning of all this BLM mess and negotiated better terms for themselves. Better yet, how about if none of these agencies with no accountability had been prevented from being created in the first place. I am sick to death of being regulated to infinity and beyond by people I can't vote out. That's not how our government was supposed to work. | |
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 Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | Three 4 Luck - 2014-04-13 4:19 PM Finney, you've always gotten on my nerves, but IMO you shouldn't have felt like you had to defend your personal life that way. I'm sorry you felt like you needed to do that.
That said, this particular case has opened up some dialogue that needed to take place and brought to light some cases that are much more cut and dried where you cannot argue justice is being served. I wonder how different things would be if the ranchers had had a way to communicate like we do now, where they could have more easily banded together to say NO at the beginning of all this BLM mess and negotiated better terms for themselves. Better yet, how about if none of these agencies with no accountability had been prevented from being created in the first place. I am sick to death of being regulated to infinity and beyond by people I can't vote out. That's not how our government was supposed to work.
This is exactly how I feel about this.
And Finney...the ignorance I refer to is in the experience of dealing with the BLM. You recommended ranchers 'buying land & paying the taxes' like everyone else does...have you ever been 'out west'? Do you have any idea how many acres are required per cow? Do you think livestock & wildlife should be banned?
It's the ignorance of those who have no clue to what it takes to survive out here, yet, think they should have an opinion...one that is not educated...that is creating hardship for those who are fighting this battle. Get educated to ALL the facts...better yet, just watch and learn.
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Googly Goo
Posts: 7053
| Three 4 Luck - 2014-04-13 5:19 PM Finney, you've always gotten on my nerves, but IMO you shouldn't have felt like you had to defend your personal life that way. I'm sorry you felt like you needed to do that.
That said, this particular case has opened up some dialogue that needed to take place and brought to light some cases that are much more cut and dried where you cannot argue justice is being served. I wonder how different things would be if the ranchers had had a way to communicate like we do now, where they could have more easily banded together to say NO at the beginning of all this BLM mess and negotiated better terms for themselves. Better yet, how about if none of these agencies with no accountability had been prevented from being created in the first place. I am sick to death of being regulated to infinity and beyond by people I can't vote out. That's not how our government was supposed to work.
I mostly share your sentiments however this is a matter of trespass not regulation. Cliven doesn't own the land and the land owner has a right who uses it and how it can be used.... Even if the land owner is the fed. | |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 962
| For the record, I am not "defending" my personal life. I am proud of who I am and my family. I meant it as a "teaching" moment.
Every private rancher I know would jump at the chance to own a federal or state grazing permit. The better terms are 1/50th of the rent we all pay if we want more pasture. Young people can't get a start anymore because the rent it too high, land prices are through the roof and a bred cow costs $2000+. If people's anti-government sentiment is so high that they will side with a family who has obviously gone around the bend, they need to rethink things. Grazing permits that come up for lease are few and very far between and priced way out of reach of a common "rancher". The government, by letting him use that pasture for free, is robbing all of us of revenue that goes to benefit everyone. Why don't they show the people on tv who pay their rent and think these people are cheats? Because "TV" is not interested in the real story, it's not sensational enough. They want the ratings killer. It's why people watch bull riding I think, for the wrecks. | |
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Googly Goo
Posts: 7053
| musikmaker - 2014-04-13 5:34 PM Three 4 Luck - 2014-04-13 4:19 PM Finney, you've always gotten on my nerves, but IMO you shouldn't have felt like you had to defend your personal life that way. I'm sorry you felt like you needed to do that.
That said, this particular case has opened up some dialogue that needed to take place and brought to light some cases that are much more cut and dried where you cannot argue justice is being served. I wonder how different things would be if the ranchers had had a way to communicate like we do now, where they could have more easily banded together to say NO at the beginning of all this BLM mess and negotiated better terms for themselves. Better yet, how about if none of these agencies with no accountability had been prevented from being created in the first place. I am sick to death of being regulated to infinity and beyond by people I can't vote out. That's not how our government was supposed to work. This is exactly how I feel about this.
And Finney...the ignorance I refer to is in the experience of dealing with the BLM. You recommended ranchers 'buying land & paying the taxes' like everyone else does...have you ever been 'out west'? Do you have any idea how many acres are required per cow? Do you think livestock & wildlife should be banned?
It's the ignorance of those who have no clue to what it takes to survive out here, yet, think they should have an opinion...one that is not educated...that is creating hardship for those who are fighting this battle. Get educated to ALL the facts...better yet, just watch and learn.
That's got nothing to do with the argument. You're supporting trespass, entitlement and abandonment of rule of law while rewriting the constitution to support your ideology. All liberal stances. I laugh at the ignorant crying ignorance and hypocracy of so called conservatives abandoning their constructionist views of the constitution. | |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 962
| musikmaker - 2014-04-13 5:34 PM
Three 4 Luck - 2014-04-13 4:19 PM Finney, you've always gotten on my nerves, but IMO you shouldn't have felt like you had to defend your personal life that way. I'm sorry you felt like you needed to do that.
That said, this particular case has opened up some dialogue that needed to take place and brought to light some cases that are much more cut and dried where you cannot argue justice is being served. I wonder how different things would be if the ranchers had had a way to communicate like we do now, where they could have more easily banded together to say NO at the beginning of all this BLM mess and negotiated better terms for themselves. Better yet, how about if none of these agencies with no accountability had been prevented from being created in the first place. I am sick to death of being regulated to infinity and beyond by people I can't vote out. That's not how our government was supposed to work.
This is exactly how I feel about this.
And Finney...the ignorance I refer to is in the experience of dealing with the BLM. You recommended ranchers 'buying land & paying the taxes' like everyone else does...have you ever been 'out west'? Do you have any idea how many acres are required per cow? Do you think livestock & wildlife should be banned?
It's the ignorance of those who have no clue to what it takes to survive out here, yet, think they should have an opinion...one that is not educated...that is creating hardship for those who are fighting this battle. Get educated to ALL the facts...better yet, just watch and learn.
Here's what I know. It takes at least 20 acres to run a cow in Nebraska w/ supplemental feed. Land prices have increased to $1000-$1500 per grass acre. A 250 cow place would require at least 5000 acres of range land costing up to $7.5 million dollars. There is next to no federal and state grazing land in this state and what there is (besides school land) never, I repeat never, comes up for lease. Most real estate people will tell you that if you pay more than $10,000/cow, or $2,500,000, you can't make it pay. That is a $5 million dollar difference in making it and not.
"Out West", you can own 150 acres costing (@ $1500/ac) $225,000, pay a grazing permit for a thousand head of cattle (AUM) costing $1350, have the same 250 head as the Nebraska (and many other states) and laugh all the way to the bank. Then, it must be written in the contract somewhere, complain ad nauseum about the indignities you suffer.
If you don't like living "out west", move to somewhere that takes less grass per cow. It's not a hard concept, many people have done it, bought land and paid taxes. It's gotten so fashionable for ranchers to complain about the goverment interferring in their lives, they forget about the times they complain about the governement not helping them enough (SD Blizzard).
When people sign a BLM or State lease anywhere, they are read each page individually so there is no misunderstandings about their obligations as well as the government's. Sometimes people have been someplace for so long, it feels just like it IS theirs, just like my Dad's story, but it isn't, and if they forget that, sometimes bad things happen.
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Googly Goo
Posts: 7053
| musikmaker - 2014-04-13 5:34 PM Three 4 Luck - 2014-04-13 4:19 PM Finney, you've always gotten on my nerves, but IMO you shouldn't have felt like you had to defend your personal life that way. I'm sorry you felt like you needed to do that.
That said, this particular case has opened up some dialogue that needed to take place and brought to light some cases that are much more cut and dried where you cannot argue justice is being served. I wonder how different things would be if the ranchers had had a way to communicate like we do now, where they could have more easily banded together to say NO at the beginning of all this BLM mess and negotiated better terms for themselves. Better yet, how about if none of these agencies with no accountability had been prevented from being created in the first place. I am sick to death of being regulated to infinity and beyond by people I can't vote out. That's not how our government was supposed to work. This is exactly how I feel about this.
And Finney...the ignorance I refer to is in the experience of dealing with the BLM. You recommended ranchers 'buying land & paying the taxes' like everyone else does...have you ever been 'out west'? Do you have any idea how many acres are required per cow? Do you think livestock & wildlife should be banned?
It's the ignorance of those who have no clue to what it takes to survive out here, yet, think they should have an opinion...one that is not educated...that is creating hardship for those who are fighting this battle. Get educated to ALL the facts...better yet, just watch and learn.
By the way, Musik.... I have owned land in both Arizona and Nevada. I've applied for both state trust and BLM grazing rights and I currently have a herd of over 600 Herfords.
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Googly Goo
Posts: 7053
| Just a personal opinion..... If you give a dislike without a retort, you're either chickenshiitt or too freaking stupid to participate in an adult discussion.
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 Semper Fi
Location: North Texas | TXBO - 2014-04-13 6:52 PM
Just a personal opinion..... If you give a dislike without a retort, you're either chickenshiitt or too freaking stupid to participate in an adult discussion.
LMAO! Now this I can also agree with and understand.
And No, I am not a Rancher. But here is what I do understand that any kind of 'leased land' is a monetary black hole. I don't care how money can be made off it! The economics say if One does not own said Land, then the same One does not control said land.
Now, onto the Bundy Deal again. TxBo per the Breibart Article the Land in question was deeded to Nevada in 1848. Then why are The Feds even involved in this squabble? That is the $64 Million Dollar right there!
Edited by foundation horse 2014-04-13 7:09 PM
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 Shelter Dog Lover
Posts: 10277
| FinneyQuarterHorses - 2014-04-13 6:10 PM
musikmaker - 2014-04-13 5:34 PM
Three 4 Luck - 2014-04-13 4:19 PM Finney, you've always gotten on my nerves, but IMO you shouldn't have felt like you had to defend your personal life that way. I'm sorry you felt like you needed to do that.
That said, this particular case has opened up some dialogue that needed to take place and brought to light some cases that are much more cut and dried where you cannot argue justice is being served. I wonder how different things would be if the ranchers had had a way to communicate like we do now, where they could have more easily banded together to say NO at the beginning of all this BLM mess and negotiated better terms for themselves. Better yet, how about if none of these agencies with no accountability had been prevented from being created in the first place. I am sick to death of being regulated to infinity and beyond by people I can't vote out. That's not how our government was supposed to work.
This is exactly how I feel about this.
And Finney...the ignorance I refer to is in the experience of dealing with the BLM. You recommended ranchers 'buying land & paying the taxes' like everyone else does...have you ever been 'out west'? Do you have any idea how many acres are required per cow? Do you think livestock & wildlife should be banned?
It's the ignorance of those who have no clue to what it takes to survive out here, yet, think they should have an opinion...one that is not educated...that is creating hardship for those who are fighting this battle. Get educated to ALL the facts...better yet, just watch and learn.
Here's what I know. It takes at least 20 acres to run a cow in Nebraska w/ supplemental feed. Land prices have increased to $1000-$1500 per grass acre. A 250 cow place would require at least 5000 acres of range land costing up to $7.5 million dollars. There is next to no federal and state grazing land in this state and what there is (besides school land ) never, I repeat never, comes up for lease. Most real estate people will tell you that if you pay more than $10,000/cow, or $2,500,000, you can't make it pay. That is a $5 million dollar difference in making it and not.
"Out West", you can own 150 acres costing (@ $1500/ac ) $225,000, pay a grazing permit for a thousand head of cattle (AUM ) costing $1350, have the same 250 head as the Nebraska (and many other states ) and laugh all the way to the bank. Then, it must be written in the contract somewhere, complain ad nauseum about the indignities you suffer.
If you don't like living "out west", move to somewhere that takes less grass per cow. It's not a hard concept, many people have done it, bought land and paid taxes. It's gotten so fashionable for ranchers to complain about the goverment interferring in their lives, they forget about the times they complain about the governement not helping them enough (SD Blizzard ).
When people sign a BLM or State lease anywhere, they are read each page individually so there is no misunderstandings about their obligations as well as the government's. Sometimes people have been someplace for so long, it feels just like it IS theirs, just like my Dad's story, but it isn't, and if they forget that, sometimes bad things happen.
From a contractual perspective, Bundy agreed to the BLM terms and demonstrated so by the years he did pay his grazing rights. Even if unhappy, I don't know how he can say sorry changed my mind but I am going to keep using your land. I agree about the over regulation by agencies who have total power and no oversight but they are regulating land they own. If preemptive rights give him the rights to the land why did he pay the BLM to begin with? | |
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Warmblood with Wings
Posts: 27846
Location: Florida.. | I dont know anything about it out there as far as land rights etc. Here I have always bought acreage at $18,000 - $24,000 a acre for my North Florida farms.
South Florida was much more..
and Im not the brightest when it comes to these type discussions..
all I am saying is a pretty simple thing .. The other ranchers have to pay so why not him. that is my "only" issue .. and not even directed at bundy for I dont know the man at all and am certain hes a well respected , hardworking man.. my aspect is what is right and what is wrong and felt ranchers paying got the bad end of the deal then.. | |
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Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | FinneyQuarterHorses - 2014-04-13 5:10 PM musikmaker - 2014-04-13 5:34 PM Three 4 Luck - 2014-04-13 4:19 PM Finney, you've always gotten on my nerves, but IMO you shouldn't have felt like you had to defend your personal life that way. I'm sorry you felt like you needed to do that.
That said, this particular case has opened up some dialogue that needed to take place and brought to light some cases that are much more cut and dried where you cannot argue justice is being served. I wonder how different things would be if the ranchers had had a way to communicate like we do now, where they could have more easily banded together to say NO at the beginning of all this BLM mess and negotiated better terms for themselves. Better yet, how about if none of these agencies with no accountability had been prevented from being created in the first place. I am sick to death of being regulated to infinity and beyond by people I can't vote out. That's not how our government was supposed to work. This is exactly how I feel about this.
And Finney...the ignorance I refer to is in the experience of dealing with the BLM. You recommended ranchers 'buying land & paying the taxes' like everyone else does...have you ever been 'out west'? Do you have any idea how many acres are required per cow? Do you think livestock & wildlife should be banned?
It's the ignorance of those who have no clue to what it takes to survive out here, yet, think they should have an opinion...one that is not educated...that is creating hardship for those who are fighting this battle. Get educated to ALL the facts...better yet, just watch and learn.
Here's what I know. It takes at least 20 acres to run a cow in Nebraska w/ supplemental feed. Land prices have increased to $1000-$1500 per grass acre. A 250 cow place would require at least 5000 acres of range land costing up to $7.5 million dollars. There is next to no federal and state grazing land in this state and what there is (besides school land ) never, I repeat never, comes up for lease. Most real estate people will tell you that if you pay more than $10,000/cow, or $2,500,000, you can't make it pay. That is a $5 million dollar difference in making it and not. "Out West", you can own 150 acres costing (@ $1500/ac ) $225,000, pay a grazing permit for a thousand head of cattle (AUM ) costing $1350, have the same 250 head as the Nebraska (and many other states ) and laugh all the way to the bank. Then, it must be written in the contract somewhere, complain ad nauseum about the indignities you suffer. If you don't like living "out west", move to somewhere that takes less grass per cow. It's not a hard concept, many people have done it, bought land and paid taxes. It's gotten so fashionable for ranchers to complain about the goverment interferring in their lives, they forget about the times they complain about the governement not helping them enough (SD Blizzard ). When people sign a BLM or State lease anywhere, they are read each page individually so there is no misunderstandings about their obligations as well as the government's. Sometimes people have been someplace for so long, it feels just like it IS theirs, just like my Dad's story, but it isn't, and if they forget that, sometimes bad things happen.
We're not in the cattle business...hotel, food & oil wells! Surrounded by lease land, though, and have good friends who are. Idk what the cow per acre is except that it's much more than that. The horizon is vast...the water is scarce. That's the expense out here. Water. Especially with the drought.
And believe me...the only thing I don't like about the new-west are the new-comers...lol. Oh yeah...and the people who think they know better than us how to run it. I know of some leases for sale...beware they come with environmentalists, archeologists, recreationalists...cow haters. The water tanks have been targeted lately along with cows...poisoned cows, too. But hey...sounds like a couple of you could buddy right up to the perps.
Tell ya what...just sit back and watch. The sheriff in Clark County just proved to the world that the jurisdiction falls in his hands. Deal with it.
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Googly Goo
Posts: 7053
| foundation horse - 2014-04-13 7:08 PM TXBO - 2014-04-13 6:52 PM Just a personal opinion..... If you give a dislike without a retort, you're either chickenshiitt or too freaking stupid to participate in an adult discussion.
LMAO! Now this I can also agree with and understand. And No, I am not a Rancher. But here is what I do understand that any kind of 'leased land' is a monetary black hole. I don't care how money can be made off it! The economics say if One does not own said Land, then the same One does not control said land. Now, onto the Bundy Deal again. TxBo per the Breibart Article the Land in question was deeded to Nevada in 1848. Then why are The Feds even involved in this squabble? That is the $64 Million Dollar right there!
FH, the land was deeded to the fed. Nevada didn't even have statehood yet. | |
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Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | Everyone here is forgetting that Bundy tried to pay the lease...they refused as the 'tortoise' was more important at that time...also, the fees were to go towards improving the land and was instead used to shut down ranching.
It's a happening thing out here...we've been up against these goons for many years & are finally getting sick of it. Again...the fed does NOT 'own' this land.
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Googly Goo
Posts: 7053
| rodeomom3 - 2014-04-13 7:10 PM FinneyQuarterHorses - 2014-04-13 6:10 PM musikmaker - 2014-04-13 5:34 PM Three 4 Luck - 2014-04-13 4:19 PM Finney, you've always gotten on my nerves, but IMO you shouldn't have felt like you had to defend your personal life that way. I'm sorry you felt like you needed to do that.
That said, this particular case has opened up some dialogue that needed to take place and brought to light some cases that are much more cut and dried where you cannot argue justice is being served. I wonder how different things would be if the ranchers had had a way to communicate like we do now, where they could have more easily banded together to say NO at the beginning of all this BLM mess and negotiated better terms for themselves. Better yet, how about if none of these agencies with no accountability had been prevented from being created in the first place. I am sick to death of being regulated to infinity and beyond by people I can't vote out. That's not how our government was supposed to work. This is exactly how I feel about this.
And Finney...the ignorance I refer to is in the experience of dealing with the BLM. You recommended ranchers 'buying land & paying the taxes' like everyone else does...have you ever been 'out west'? Do you have any idea how many acres are required per cow? Do you think livestock & wildlife should be banned?
It's the ignorance of those who have no clue to what it takes to survive out here, yet, think they should have an opinion...one that is not educated...that is creating hardship for those who are fighting this battle. Get educated to ALL the facts...better yet, just watch and learn.
Here's what I know. It takes at least 20 acres to run a cow in Nebraska w/ supplemental feed. Land prices have increased to $1000-$1500 per grass acre. A 250 cow place would require at least 5000 acres of range land costing up to $7.5 million dollars. There is next to no federal and state grazing land in this state and what there is (besides school land ) never, I repeat never, comes up for lease. Most real estate people will tell you that if you pay more than $10,000/cow, or $2,500,000, you can't make it pay. That is a $5 million dollar difference in making it and not. "Out West", you can own 150 acres costing (@ $1500/ac ) $225,000, pay a grazing permit for a thousand head of cattle (AUM ) costing $1350, have the same 250 head as the Nebraska (and many other states ) and laugh all the way to the bank. Then, it must be written in the contract somewhere, complain ad nauseum about the indignities you suffer. If you don't like living "out west", move to somewhere that takes less grass per cow. It's not a hard concept, many people have done it, bought land and paid taxes. It's gotten so fashionable for ranchers to complain about the goverment interferring in their lives, they forget about the times they complain about the governement not helping them enough (SD Blizzard ). When people sign a BLM or State lease anywhere, they are read each page individually so there is no misunderstandings about their obligations as well as the government's. Sometimes people have been someplace for so long, it feels just like it IS theirs, just like my Dad's story, but it isn't, and if they forget that, sometimes bad things happen. From a contractual perspective, Bundy agreed to the BLM terms and demonstrated so by the years he did pay his grazing rights. Even if unhappy, I don't know how he can say sorry changed my mind but I am going to keep using your land. I agree about the over regulation by agencies who have total power and no oversight but they are regulating land they own. If preemptive rights give him the rights to the land why did he pay the BLM to begin with?
Absolutely right, Rodeo. You can't say I got my rights to this land from the fed and then say I don't recognize the Feds authority so I'm not going to pay them. | |
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Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | TXBO - 2014-04-13 6:36 PM foundation horse - 2014-04-13 7:08 PM TXBO - 2014-04-13 6:52 PM Just a personal opinion..... If you give a dislike without a retort, you're either chickenshiitt or too freaking stupid to participate in an adult discussion.
LMAO! Now this I can also agree with and understand. And No, I am not a Rancher. But here is what I do understand that any kind of 'leased land' is a monetary black hole. I don't care how money can be made off it! The economics say if One does not own said Land, then the same One does not control said land. Now, onto the Bundy Deal again. TxBo per the Breibart Article the Land in question was deeded to Nevada in 1848. Then why are The Feds even involved in this squabble? That is the $64 Million Dollar right there!
No...it was NOT deeded to the fed!!! Where is the deed? I'd really like to see that.
And the fed has absolutely NO constitutional leeway to own vast tracts of land for no 'national' purpose. (the General Welfare does not apply).
You seriously need to open your heart & head to what our forefathers intended.
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Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | TXBO - 2014-04-13 6:39 PM rodeomom3 - 2014-04-13 7:10 PM FinneyQuarterHorses - 2014-04-13 6:10 PM musikmaker - 2014-04-13 5:34 PM Three 4 Luck - 2014-04-13 4:19 PM Finney, you've always gotten on my nerves, but IMO you shouldn't have felt like you had to defend your personal life that way. I'm sorry you felt like you needed to do that.
That said, this particular case has opened up some dialogue that needed to take place and brought to light some cases that are much more cut and dried where you cannot argue justice is being served. I wonder how different things would be if the ranchers had had a way to communicate like we do now, where they could have more easily banded together to say NO at the beginning of all this BLM mess and negotiated better terms for themselves. Better yet, how about if none of these agencies with no accountability had been prevented from being created in the first place. I am sick to death of being regulated to infinity and beyond by people I can't vote out. That's not how our government was supposed to work. This is exactly how I feel about this.
And Finney...the ignorance I refer to is in the experience of dealing with the BLM. You recommended ranchers 'buying land & paying the taxes' like everyone else does...have you ever been 'out west'? Do you have any idea how many acres are required per cow? Do you think livestock & wildlife should be banned?
It's the ignorance of those who have no clue to what it takes to survive out here, yet, think they should have an opinion...one that is not educated...that is creating hardship for those who are fighting this battle. Get educated to ALL the facts...better yet, just watch and learn.
Here's what I know. It takes at least 20 acres to run a cow in Nebraska w/ supplemental feed. Land prices have increased to $1000-$1500 per grass acre. A 250 cow place would require at least 5000 acres of range land costing up to $7.5 million dollars. There is next to no federal and state grazing land in this state and what there is (besides school land ) never, I repeat never, comes up for lease. Most real estate people will tell you that if you pay more than $10,000/cow, or $2,500,000, you can't make it pay. That is a $5 million dollar difference in making it and not. "Out West", you can own 150 acres costing (@ $1500/ac ) $225,000, pay a grazing permit for a thousand head of cattle (AUM ) costing $1350, have the same 250 head as the Nebraska (and many other states ) and laugh all the way to the bank. Then, it must be written in the contract somewhere, complain ad nauseum about the indignities you suffer. If you don't like living "out west", move to somewhere that takes less grass per cow. It's not a hard concept, many people have done it, bought land and paid taxes. It's gotten so fashionable for ranchers to complain about the goverment interferring in their lives, they forget about the times they complain about the governement not helping them enough (SD Blizzard ). When people sign a BLM or State lease anywhere, they are read each page individually so there is no misunderstandings about their obligations as well as the government's. Sometimes people have been someplace for so long, it feels just like it IS theirs, just like my Dad's story, but it isn't, and if they forget that, sometimes bad things happen. From a contractual perspective, Bundy agreed to the BLM terms and demonstrated so by the years he did pay his grazing rights. Even if unhappy, I don't know how he can say sorry changed my mind but I am going to keep using your land. I agree about the over regulation by agencies who have total power and no oversight but they are regulating land they own. If preemptive rights give him the rights to the land why did he pay the BLM to begin with?
I didn't get my rights from the fed....wow. Our Constitution 'protects' our 'inalienable' rights... | |
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