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Hungarian Midget Woman
  
Location: Midwest | I'm not sure. I know originally the owner of Gem Twist's clone (show jumper) said they were going to compete with him, but last I heard he was breeding in France. |
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 Elite Veteran
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Location: White Mountains of AZ | So why is it that the clones aren't being competed on? Or aren't doing well? |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 915
Location: SE KS | QH<3er - 2014-12-18 9:20 AM
So why is it that the clones aren't being competed on? Or aren't doing well?
I too am curious about why a clone isn't being competed on.
It seems "everyone" wants to breed "to a proven" stallion, so why are clones any different? Why don't they have to prove themselves? |
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Hungarian Midget Woman
Location: Midwest | lhighquality - 2014-12-18 9:28 AM QH<3er - 2014-12-18 9:20 AM So why is it that the clones aren't being competed on? Or aren't doing well? I too am curious about why a clone isn't being competed on. It seems "everyone" wants to breed "to a proven" stallion, so why are clones any different? Why don't they have to prove themselves?
The clone passes on the exact same genes that the original would in it's semen.
The genetics are already considered "proven".
Eta: the clones that actually competed were early clones, which tended to have some physical issues if memory serves. I don't know of any recently cloned horses that are being competed on.
This is quite different than breeding to a full sibling, as the clone passes on the exact same nuclear DNA as the original. A sibling will not be as similar to the successful horse.
Edited by barrelracr131 2014-12-18 9:46 AM
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Veteran
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| I do not agree that gentics makes a clone "proven". Heart, desire, grit etc. in the arena makes them proven in my book. |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 316
| I've heard that a reason that Clayton doesn't compete is because he can never live up to the legacy that Scamper left behind. Completely understandable. Yes their genetics are the same but what about heart and try? That makes up alot of the horse.. IMO.. You all know that everyone would be bashing the clone if they didn't live up to the previous horse.. Which most of the time is impossible.. They are cloning once in a lifetime horses and just trying to pass the genetics in the hopes of raising another once in a lifetime horse. |
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Location: Missouri | If a clone can't live up to it's original it is then speculated if the clone is any good. If you never compete on a clone or show them, then it leaves people to wonder whether or not it could have been as good.
As said before a lot goes into making a super horse, super. Heart, desire, training, certain circumstances, etc etc.. You could clone Secretariat, but he might not be the same horse without the owners and trainers who originally had him. A lot plays into why these horses were great. Scamper was handed down over time from sale bar to sale barn and when Charmayne got him he clicked with that little girl. They have the proper genetics but that doesn't always mean that they will easily become the super horse. Look at full siblings of super horses, are they as super? Genetics is a fun thing to study. When you look into animals who are used for performance purposes it gets really interesting.
IN the cattle industry clones are HUGE. Heatwave, a leading club calf producer, has almost 10 clones. All of which have been proven producers. However, cattle are based off of a less demanding performance criteria. They are judged on appearance and not performing an actual task, much like halter horses. So in the case of cattle, clones are beneficial because less goes into determining a great one. |
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Elite Veteran
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Location: SE KS | miss_n_cinch13 - 2014-12-18 11:24 AM
I do not agree that gentics makes a clone "proven". Heart, desire, grit etc. in the arena makes them proven in my book.
This!!!!
I guess I am looking at the horse as an "individual" or just like a full sibling. If it doesn't perform & prove itself, it isn't any better the next horse! |
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 Good Grief!
Posts: 6343
Location: Cap'n Joan Rotgut.....alberta | QH<3er - 2014-12-19 8:20 AM
So why is it that the clones aren't being competed on? Or aren't doing well?
Because it cost a truck load of money to get one made and its not worth the risk....M |
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 Expert
Posts: 1409
| So.....do we have any conclusive evidence that Latte has a clone on the ground?
Edited by TyE 2014-12-18 1:57 PM
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 Hugs to You
Posts: 7551
Location: In The Land of Cotton | TyE - 2014-12-18 2:56 PM So.....do we have any conclusive evidence that Latte has a clone on the ground?
NOOOOO - come on sleuths - find out for us........................ |
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Hungarian Midget Woman
Location: Midwest | miss_n_cinch13 - 2014-12-18 11:24 AM I do not agree that gentics makes a clone "proven". Heart, desire, grit etc. in the arena makes them proven in my book.
I think you are misinterpreting what I wrote.
The horse's reproductive material is exactly the same as the original horse. Breeding to a clone yields the exact same sperm as that from the original horse. For example, take Frenchman's Guy- he has been cloned- and the semen from the original horse, if tested, would be indistguishable from that of the clone. Just as identical twins have the "same" DNA.
Because the original horse proved itself, and the clone gives the same DNA to create a foal, that's why it's genetics are considered proven, since the exact same genes created the orignal horse.
There is 100% zero incentive to prove a clone, because the owners have everything to lose and not one thing to gain. Environment shaped the horse that the original became. Trying to recreate that would be next to impossible.
I can see why someone would want to clone a great gelding to see what it can produce. I'm not saying I would choose to breed to one. |
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 Elite Veteran
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Location: Do I hear Banjos? | barrelracr131 - 2014-12-18 2:15 PM
miss_n_cinch13 - 2014-12-18 11:24 AM I do not agree that gentics makes a clone "proven". Heart, desire, grit etc. in the arena makes them proven in my book.
I think you are misinterpreting what I wrote.
The horse's reproductive material is exactly the same as the original horse. Breeding to a clone yields the exact same sperm as that from the original horse. For example, take Frenchman's Guy- he has been cloned- and the semen from the original horse, if tested, would be indistguishable from that of the clone. Just as identical twins have the "same" DNA.
Because the original horse proved itself, and the clone gives the same DNA to create a foal, that's why it's genetics are considered proven, since the exact same genes created the orignal horse.
There is 100% zero incentive to prove a clone, because the owners have everything to lose and not one thing to gain. Environment shaped the horse that the original became. Trying to recreate that would be next to impossible. I can see why someone would want to clone a great gelding to see what it can produce. I'm not saying I would choose to breed to one.
The genes may be proven...but the expression of that genotype...the animal's Phenotype may not be (and is very likely not) the same. Hence the clone can be a different coat color or pattern etc. Therefore it stands to reason that the ability or behavioral phenotype may also be very different.
The clone at least gives the possibility of producing another champion or exceptional animal...but it's not the same animal as it's progenitor.
I agree with others here that the clone owners have everything to lose and likely little to gain from competing their clone. Better to let folks hope the clone can pass on the greatness...than to tank in competition and prove the clone is a factory second.  |
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Location: SE Louisiana | I must be missing something here.... I always figured a stallion proved himself by passing his abilities on to offspring... How is he to do this if nobody will send him mares to breed??? Because he is not proven yet? I mean... Secretariat showed the world what he could do... But as a sire he sucked!!!  |
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Hungarian Midget Woman
Location: Midwest | The nuclear genotype is the same, but the epigenetics markers are likey different as a result of the different environment the horse has lived in.
Of course, science is only starting to know bits and pieces about gene expression and how it relates to phenotype. So you are right... Not exactly the same in all aspects, but the same from a nuclear DNA standpoint.... it's the closest you are going to get. Lol
in terms of the testing to Id a specimen, they will come up as the same sequences.
Attitude, grit, try can all come from many different places. Personally I think it's a mix of genetics and experiences, training, nutrition, and environment that makes or breaks it |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 316
| Going back to the original poster... I for one hope that they do clone Latte! I think this is just the beginning of cloning. We are going to be seeing alot more. Plus why not?! Getting sponsored to do this and you get a horse that has the same GENETIC make up as your world champion that you love to death and get another shot at having a second one of him. |
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Hungarian Midget Woman
Location: Midwest | Tatum2 - 2014-12-18 3:02 PM Going back to the original poster... I for one hope that they do clone Latte! I think this is just the beginning of cloning. We are going to be seeing alot more. Plus why not?! Getting sponsored to do this and you get a horse that has the same GENETIC make up as your world champion that you love to death and get another shot at having a second one of him.
I'd like to see what he would produce |
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Meanest Teacher!!!
Posts: 8555
Location: sunny california | If there were physical problems with the early clones, who is to say that there is no more physical problems...maybe they just can't see it |
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  Champ
Posts: 19623
Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm | Can one of you smart people explain how this affects clones vs the real thing.
But the goals changed dramatically in 2005. Research showed animal genomes were, at once, more simple and more complex than we thought. First, there were only around 20,000 genes, not the 300,000 or 100,000 originally projected. These genes only represented a 2% of the DNA on chromosomes. This was astounding because we thought that once we knew the sequence of genes, we would be able to understand the secrets of heredity. Instead, the key to understanding genes resides in the 98% of the genome that does not encode genes and which we had called “junk DNA”. While genes are similar between species, the junk DNA is unique to each species. So, to understand how genes work in horses, we needed horse “junk DNA” sequences.
https://www.uky.edu/Ag/Horsemap/abthgp.html
Edited by OregonBR 2014-12-18 5:56 PM
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Champ
Posts: 19623
Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm | I'm having trouble getting that link live. Sorry.
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