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 Owner of a ratting catting machine
Posts: 2258
  
| FlyingHigh1454 - 2016-03-26 1:02 PM
Ok, I didn't read all of the comments because it started irritating me with politics being brought in (seriously? So STUPID).
I used to run a solid paint horse (horse in my profile picture), the first real barrel horse I'd ever rode, and I was training her myself (ZERO barrel anything before we got her). She was a 4yo, rough past, with a new rider. I'm sure people thought it was hilarious watching us try to get around the pattern at a slow lope. But I didn't care, I was happy enough to place in the 4D, even if it was only $15 at times.
Flash forward 4 years, and this same horse and rider won a state top 10 award in the 2D, I was just as proud of my horse to be winning in the 2D as I was when she was placing in the 4D. Sure, the money was better up there, but it wasn't the point.
If you are in these 4D races for the money, you are in the wrong part of the sport. That's not the point of the 4D race. I've been to over 200 barrel races with this horse, and I can count the amount of times I've made my money back on two hands (7, to be exact). But that doesn't matter to me. If it mattered, I'd be running a top papered, bought trained $20,000 horse - not the horse we traded a western pleasure reject for, who had no training at all, and who has papers that has literally no barrel horses anywhere.
What is the point to this monologue, you might ask?
The point is, why do people feel that the amount of money you earn is indicative of being better than anyone else? I would never say that the people in the 1D were better than us just because they win more money. We worked harder than them to be there, we worked harder than them to stay there.
Saying someone is worse than someone else just because they earn less money? That is just wrong. It takes zero effort to jump on a trained horse and win. Anyone can do that. It's those horses that are hard to ride, who don't just do it themselves, those prove the real riders. It's those guys who can be asked to get on a problem horse they have never rode before, and make a nice run on it, those are the real riders.
Money should not be the sole reason you barrel race. If it is, I'm afraid that you are in the wrong area at the 4Ds.
Pfffft. "Anyone can jump on a 1D horse." "Zero effort".
Ohhhh okay...
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1131
| classicpotatochip - 2016-03-26 10:57 PM
FlyingHigh1454 - 2016-03-26 1:02 PM
Ok, I didn't read all of the comments because it started irritating me with politics being brought in (seriously? So STUPID).
I used to run a solid paint horse (horse in my profile picture), the first real barrel horse I'd ever rode, and I was training her myself (ZERO barrel anything before we got her). She was a 4yo, rough past, with a new rider. I'm sure people thought it was hilarious watching us try to get around the pattern at a slow lope. But I didn't care, I was happy enough to place in the 4D, even if it was only $15 at times.
Flash forward 4 years, and this same horse and rider won a state top 10 award in the 2D, I was just as proud of my horse to be winning in the 2D as I was when she was placing in the 4D. Sure, the money was better up there, but it wasn't the point.
If you are in these 4D races for the money, you are in the wrong part of the sport. That's not the point of the 4D race. I've been to over 200 barrel races with this horse, and I can count the amount of times I've made my money back on two hands (7, to be exact). But that doesn't matter to me. If it mattered, I'd be running a top papered, bought trained $20,000 horse - not the horse we traded a western pleasure reject for, who had no training at all, and who has papers that has literally no barrel horses anywhere.
What is the point to this monologue, you might ask?
The point is, why do people feel that the amount of money you earn is indicative of being better than anyone else? I would never say that the people in the 1D were better than us just because they win more money. We worked harder than them to be there, we worked harder than them to stay there.
Saying someone is worse than someone else just because they earn less money? That is just wrong. It takes zero effort to jump on a trained horse and win. Anyone can do that. It's those horses that are hard to ride, who don't just do it themselves, those prove the real riders. It's those guys who can be asked to get on a problem horse they have never rode before, and make a nice run on it, those are the real riders.
Money should not be the sole reason you barrel race. If it is, I'm afraid that you are in the wrong area at the 4Ds.
Pfffft. "Anyone can jump on a 1D horse." "Zero effort".
Ohhhh okay...
I never specified 1D horses only, I said ANY 'bought trained' horse. If it can run without help (which is another way of explaining 'bought trained'), all you have to do is jump on and stay out of the way. I know PLENTY of them, and I've trained several. They are not hard to ride if you let them do their job. You see kids thrown on them all the time, all they have to do is hold on and kick. | |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 926
| FlyingHigh1454 - 2016-03-26 11:29 PM
classicpotatochip - 2016-03-26 10:57 PM
FlyingHigh1454 - 2016-03-26 1:02 PM
Ok, I didn't read all of the comments because it started irritating me with politics being brought in (seriously? So STUPID).
I used to run a solid paint horse (horse in my profile picture), the first real barrel horse I'd ever rode, and I was training her myself (ZERO barrel anything before we got her). She was a 4yo, rough past, with a new rider. I'm sure people thought it was hilarious watching us try to get around the pattern at a slow lope. But I didn't care, I was happy enough to place in the 4D, even if it was only $15 at times.
Flash forward 4 years, and this same horse and rider won a state top 10 award in the 2D, I was just as proud of my horse to be winning in the 2D as I was when she was placing in the 4D. Sure, the money was better up there, but it wasn't the point.
If you are in these 4D races for the money, you are in the wrong part of the sport. That's not the point of the 4D race. I've been to over 200 barrel races with this horse, and I can count the amount of times I've made my money back on two hands (7, to be exact). But that doesn't matter to me. If it mattered, I'd be running a top papered, bought trained $20,000 horse - not the horse we traded a western pleasure reject for, who had no training at all, and who has papers that has literally no barrel horses anywhere.
What is the point to this monologue, you might ask?
The point is, why do people feel that the amount of money you earn is indicative of being better than anyone else? I would never say that the people in the 1D were better than us just because they win more money. We worked harder than them to be there, we worked harder than them to stay there.
Saying someone is worse than someone else just because they earn less money? That is just wrong. It takes zero effort to jump on a trained horse and win. Anyone can do that. It's those horses that are hard to ride, who don't just do it themselves, those prove the real riders. It's those guys who can be asked to get on a problem horse they have never rode before, and make a nice run on it, those are the real riders.
Money should not be the sole reason you barrel race. If it is, I'm afraid that you are in the wrong area at the 4Ds.
Pfffft. "Anyone can jump on a 1D horse." "Zero effort".
Ohhhh okay...
I never specified 1D horses only, I said ANY 'bought trained' horse. If it can run without help (which is another way of explaining 'bought trained' ), all you have to do is jump on and stay out of the way. I know PLENTY of them, and I've trained several. They are not hard to ride if you let them do their job. You see kids thrown on them all the time, all they have to do is hold on and kick.
While you do make some valid points there are a few things with which I would disagree.
It just isn't true that 'anyone' can jump on a trained horse and win. In fact, current case in point, I bet there's about 3/4 of the folks going down the road today that couldn't jump on Sarah Rose McDonald's horse and leave them standing, much less win. Everytime I watch them I just shake my head in amazement.
And as for $20K, that's a good prospect's price right now, not a top horse. Saw a yearling the other day for $15K. And I think Latte sold back a few years ago for about $350K, and that was more or less public knowledge. I'm sure there are some private treaties that top that price.
I have the utmost respect and admiration for the top 2 legged athletes as well as the top 4 legged athletes. It takes a team. | |
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 I'm Really Boring
Posts: 4505
| FlyingHigh1454 - 2016-03-26 1:02 PM Ok, I didn't read all of the comments because it started irritating me with politics being brought in (seriously? So STUPID). I used to run a solid paint horse (horse in my profile picture), the first real barrel horse I'd ever rode, and I was training her myself (ZERO barrel anything before we got her). She was a 4yo, rough past, with a new rider. I'm sure people thought it was hilarious watching us try to get around the pattern at a slow lope. But I didn't care, I was happy enough to place in the 4D, even if it was only $15 at times. Flash forward 4 years, and this same horse and rider won a state top 10 award in the 2D, I was just as proud of my horse to be winning in the 2D as I was when she was placing in the 4D. Sure, the money was better up there, but it wasn't the point. If you are in these 4D races for the money, you are in the wrong part of the sport. That's not the point of the 4D race. I've been to over 200 barrel races with this horse, and I can count the amount of times I've made my money back on two hands (7, to be exact). But that doesn't matter to me. If it mattered, I'd be running a top papered, bought trained $20,000 horse - not the horse we traded a western pleasure reject for, who had no training at all, and who has papers that has literally no barrel horses anywhere. What is the point to this monologue, you might ask? The point is, why do people feel that the amount of money you earn is indicative of being better than anyone else? I would never say that the people in the 1D were better than us just because they win more money. We worked harder than them to be there, we worked harder than them to stay there. Saying someone is worse than someone else just because they earn less money? That is just wrong. It takes zero effort to jump on a trained horse and win. Anyone can do that. It's those horses that are hard to ride, who don't just do it themselves, those prove the real riders. It's those guys who can be asked to get on a problem horse they have never rode before, and make a nice run on it, those are the real riders. Money should not be the sole reason you barrel race. If it is, I'm afraid that you are in the wrong area at the 4Ds.
Seriously?
Just when I thought you couldn't say anything more ignorant than what you've said on other posts in the past, you give us this gem.  | |
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 Three in a Bikini
Posts: 2035
| rodeomom3 - 2016-03-26 4:46 PM
FlyingHigh1454 - 2016-03-26 1:02 PM Ok, I didn't read all of the comments because it started irritating me with politics being brought in (seriously? So STUPID). I used to run a solid paint horse (horse in my profile picture), the first real barrel horse I'd ever rode, and I was training her myself (ZERO barrel anything before we got her). She was a 4yo, rough past, with a new rider. I'm sure people thought it was hilarious watching us try to get around the pattern at a slow lope. But I didn't care, I was happy enough to place in the 4D, even if it was only $15 at times. Flash forward 4 years, and this same horse and rider won a state top 10 award in the 2D, I was just as proud of my horse to be winning in the 2D as I was when she was placing in the 4D. Sure, the money was better up there, but it wasn't the point. If you are in these 4D races for the money, you are in the wrong part of the sport. That's not the point of the 4D race. I've been to over 200 barrel races with this horse, and I can count the amount of times I've made my money back on two hands (7, to be exact). But that doesn't matter to me. If it mattered, I'd be running a top papered, bought trained $20,000 horse - not the horse we traded a western pleasure reject for, who had no training at all, and who has papers that has literally no barrel horses anywhere. What is the point to this monologue, you might ask? The point is, why do people feel that the amount of money you earn is indicative of being better than anyone else? I would never say that the people in the 1D were better than us just because they win more money. We worked harder than them to be there, we worked harder than them to stay there. Saying someone is worse than someone else just because they earn less money? That is just wrong. It takes zero effort to jump on a trained horse and win. Anyone can do that. It's those horses that are hard to ride, who don't just do it themselves, those prove the real riders. It's those guys who can be asked to get on a problem horse they have never rode before, and make a nice run on it, those are the real riders. Money should not be the sole reason you barrel race. If it is, I'm afraid that you are in the wrong area at the 4Ds. Â I have to disagree about any one can jump on a trained horse and win, been there done that-did not win lol. Â I started riding my girls 1D horses when they quit riding, I turned them into very expensive 3D horses. Â I am having a blast though and enjoying the game. Â It takes a skill set I do not have and don't expect to ever have to ride those 1D hard turning winning horses. Â There are plenty of 1D horses that were made at home, not bought trained and ready to go. Â They also put years of sweat and training to get where they are.
^^^^This! 
Also, I *personally* could care less if it is equal pay. I will -NEVER- pay myself back in winnings for the amount I have sunk into this hobby so I will just enjoy the cash prizes (equal pay or not) as they come along. | |
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Three in a Bikini
Posts: 2035
| Coop - 2016-03-27 8:55 AM
FlyingHigh1454 - 2016-03-26 1:02 PM Ok, I didn't read all of the comments because it started irritating me with politics being brought in (seriously? So STUPID). I used to run a solid paint horse (horse in my profile picture), the first real barrel horse I'd ever rode, and I was training her myself (ZERO barrel anything before we got her). She was a 4yo, rough past, with a new rider. I'm sure people thought it was hilarious watching us try to get around the pattern at a slow lope. But I didn't care, I was happy enough to place in the 4D, even if it was only $15 at times. Flash forward 4 years, and this same horse and rider won a state top 10 award in the 2D, I was just as proud of my horse to be winning in the 2D as I was when she was placing in the 4D. Sure, the money was better up there, but it wasn't the point. If you are in these 4D races for the money, you are in the wrong part of the sport. That's not the point of the 4D race. I've been to over 200 barrel races with this horse, and I can count the amount of times I've made my money back on two hands (7, to be exact). But that doesn't matter to me. If it mattered, I'd be running a top papered, bought trained $20,000 horse - not the horse we traded a western pleasure reject for, who had no training at all, and who has papers that has literally no barrel horses anywhere. What is the point to this monologue, you might ask? The point is, why do people feel that the amount of money you earn is indicative of being better than anyone else? I would never say that the people in the 1D were better than us just because they win more money. We worked harder than them to be there, we worked harder than them to stay there. Saying someone is worse than someone else just because they earn less money? That is just wrong. It takes zero effort to jump on a trained horse and win. Anyone can do that. It's those horses that are hard to ride, who don't just do it themselves, those prove the real riders. It's those guys who can be asked to get on a problem horse they have never rode before, and make a nice run on it, those are the real riders. Money should not be the sole reason you barrel race. If it is, I'm afraid that you are in the wrong area at the 4Ds.
 Seriously?
Just when I thought you couldn't say anything more ignorant than what you've said on other posts in the past, you give us this gem.Â
Oh Lordy...
I just saw this highlighted portion. Gotta move along before I type what is on my mind.
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 Saint Stacey
| Thoughts to ponder:
1) Funny how you never see the likes of Sherry, Fallon, Lisa, etc saying how much better they could jockey someone else's horse. Yet here in BHW we see it all the time.
2) Funny how everyone on BHW is saying that the 1D has the least amount of horses in it. Yet everyone here claims to have a 1D horse. If everyone has a 1D horse, then the 1D must be the biggest division. Oh wait...
3) Funny how on every payout thread, everyone is proud to have a 4D horse. Yet on every single training thread everyone talks about the 1D horse they are running. Now I'm just confused.
Seems like a bunch of people aren't being honest with what they have. I personally feel that if you love to barrel race and you adore your equine partner then you shouldn't have to stretch the truth about what they are just to make yourself look better. | |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1165
Location: California | SKM - 2016-03-27 10:35 AM
Thoughts to ponder:
1) Funny how you never see the likes of Sherry, Fallon, Lisa, etc saying how much better they could jockey someone else's horse. Yet here in BHW we see it all the time.
2) Funny how everyone on BHW is saying that the 1D has the least amount of horses in it. Yet everyone here claims to have a 1D horse. If everyone has a 1D horse, then the 1D must be the biggest division. Oh wait...
3) Funny how on every payout thread, everyone is proud to have a 4D horse. Yet on every single training thread everyone talks about the 1D horse they are running. Now I'm just confused.
Seems like a bunch of people aren't being honest with what they have. I personally feel that if you love to barrel race and you adore your equine partner then you shouldn't have to stretch the truth about what they are just to make yourself look better.
That does seem to be a trend on here.
I know I don't have a 1D horse and that's fine. I am proud to own my currently running in the 4D horse because she was a down and out horse that we never thought would be sound enough to ride anyways. Now her coming 4yr old if he doesn't clock faster then her after he's trained he will be for sale and I will be investing in another horse. I'll never claim I can jockey anyone else's horse better or claim my horse is faster then she is. Lol | |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 618
| WHY is this issue ALWAYS an us vs. them? Why so much animosity towards 1/2D horses/riders? No matter what D your in MOST of us aren't doing this to put food on the table or a roof over our head and are mostly in the red when it comes to the $. How about being grateful and happy we get too? Go if you want or don't go. I have heard just about every argument for/against equal/progressive pay. Personally, I PREFER progressive and rarely go to a an equal unless I'm running young ones.
And quite frankly it's offensive to me when someone says "you just need to go rodeo" NEWS FLASH: I DONT WANT TO! I'm a momma raising a family and don't want to be on the road. Rodeo isn't " family friendly" in that aspect. Secondly, not every horse winning at jackpots is rodeo quality. A lot of them couldn't handle it. | |
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 BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25352
Location: Bastrop, Texas | This topic seems to come up about once a year, and it becomes a hot topic, because everyone has their point of view. Predictably, cat fights ensue.
My opinion is the equal payouts seem to be popular because everyone has a shot at the same money....all completely dependent on the luck of the draw anyway, unless you are a top 1D competitor. Anyone lower than 1D winning any money is purely dependent on the luck of the draw and who sets the time.
Personally, I don't like it. The better competitors deserve better earnings, in my book. Simply working hard is not the determinant of success in sports.
Generally, ball players who play at the AAA level make significantly more than those playing A ball. That's just the way it is. | |
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 Own It and Move On
Location: The edge of no where | FlyingHigh1454 - 2016-03-26 1:02 PM Ok, I didn't read all of the comments because it started irritating me with politics being brought in (seriously? So STUPID). I used to run a solid paint horse (horse in my profile picture), the first real barrel horse I'd ever rode, and I was training her myself (ZERO barrel anything before we got her). She was a 4yo, rough past, with a new rider. I'm sure people thought it was hilarious watching us try to get around the pattern at a slow lope. But I didn't care, I was happy enough to place in the 4D, even if it was only $15 at times. Flash forward 4 years, and this same horse and rider won a state top 10 award in the 2D, I was just as proud of my horse to be winning in the 2D as I was when she was placing in the 4D. Sure, the money was better up there, but it wasn't the point. If you are in these 4D races for the money, you are in the wrong part of the sport. That's not the point of the 4D race. I've been to over 200 barrel races with this horse, and I can count the amount of times I've made my money back on two hands (7, to be exact). But that doesn't matter to me. If it mattered, I'd be running a top papered, bought trained $20,000 horse - not the horse we traded a western pleasure reject for, who had no training at all, and who has papers that has literally no barrel horses anywhere. What is the point to this monologue, you might ask? The point is, why do people feel that the amount of money you earn is indicative of being better than anyone else? I would never say that the people in the 1D were better than us just because they win more money. We worked harder than them to be there, we worked harder than them to stay there. Saying someone is worse than someone else just because they earn less money? That is just wrong. It takes zero effort to jump on a trained horse and win. Anyone can do that. It's those horses that are hard to ride, who don't just do it themselves, those prove the real riders. It's those guys who can be asked to get on a problem horse they have never rode before, and make a nice run on it, those are the real riders. Money should not be the sole reason you barrel race. If it is, I'm afraid that you are in the wrong area at the 4Ds. Sorry - but after reading the bit about politics and this viewpoint. I have to ask - Are you voting for Bernie? Because this very much reads like a particpation trophy for all, no matter how good you are.
It's a horse race - which means the BEST team is the fastest....period....and they walk away as winners. The other Ds are just whoever got lucky and hit the number lotto that day.
Edited by MS2011 2016-03-27 9:51 PM
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 A very grounded girl
Posts: 5052
Location: Moving soon..... | There are a lot of them here in Texas. I personally like them, but if you don't like the equal payout, there are so many barrel races each weekend around here you can go elsewhere. | |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 754
Location: Arkansas | Bear - 2016-03-27 5:40 PM This topic seems to come up about once a year, and it becomes a hot topic, because everyone has their point of view. Predictably, cat fights ensue. My opinion is the equal payouts seem to be popular because everyone has a shot at the same money....all completely dependent on the luck of the draw anyway, unless you are a top 1D competitor. Anyone lower than 1D winning any money is purely dependent on the luck of the draw and who sets the time. Personally, I don't like it. The better competitors deserve better earnings, in my book. Simply working hard is not the determinant of success in sports. Generally, ball players who play at the AAA level make significantly more than those playing A ball. That's just the way it is.
This right here pretty much sums it up to me. It doesn't get any plainer or easier to understand. | |
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 Cute Little Imp
Posts: 2747
Location: N Texas | rodeomom3 - 2016-03-24 12:47 PM
mreklaw - 2016-03-24 12:36 PM I like to refer to them as Democratic barrel races. Socialist would be a better term. I am a 3D rider, my daughter can get on the same  horse and pull a 1D check, that ability and skill should be rewarded. It is no different than in the work place, those that can "produce more" get paid more.  It is what you produce, not what got you there, like in all areas of life.  If you applied that logic in the work place everyone would get the same salary.  If you really believed the  " I paid the same entry fee, feed costs the same" reasoning why are different amounts paid in the D' s for 1st, 2nd, 3rd etc. shouldn't everyone get the same amount??
I personally can't stand the reasoning of "I paid the same entry, pay the same for feed and care and ride just as much, therefore I'm entitled the win the same in the 5D as the 1D". Not everyone gets a trophy. | |
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Meanest Teacher!!!
Posts: 8555
Location: sunny california | Personally I think there is room to try new formats and contestants are free to choose where they go. Not sure why this has to keep coming up.
When i was younger i hated the 3d format and had the same reasoning as many on here. After seeing how much barrel racing has grown under the 3 d format I have grown to appreciate it. The races were never this big before. The fast girls did not get squat for money back then either. also the venues were not very nice, now they have such nice big races at great places and that would not happen if only the 1 d was contributing.
Honestly you need to keep a large number of riders happy or they will simply not come back.
Some call it socialism and maybe it is, but I really do not think that everyone wants to really live in a purely capitolistic society where the 1 % gets to just take take take and never give back. I don't want the middle class to go away and I see the 3d and 4 d winners as the middle class they get their positions by a lot of work and then it takes luck. I know alot of people that lucked out on a good paying job and quite frankly they did not do anything extraordinary to get it, they smoosed their way to their position, but because they lucked into it, the rest of us poor people have hope of landing a good job eventually. well the 3d and 4 d riders have hope of landing a big payday and I really do not want to take that hope away, that is what keeps them coming back. otherwise they will just be overworked minimum wage workers making the 1% rich and getting nothing in return and no HOPE of getting a return.
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25352
Location: Bastrop, Texas | Each to their own, I suppose. It's perfectly fine to have equal payout races, if there is a demand. It's not socialism. It's capitalism. Obviously there are a lot of people who flock to those jackpots. We go to them as well, occasionally. I just prefer that excellence is rewarded better than mediocrity. I'm not crazy about buybacks either, but I've learned to just accept them. I think most people who run a "do over" probably don't have much of an effect on the final outcome anyway. | |
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| rodeoveteran - 2016-03-25 11:03 AM
RunNitroRun - 2016-03-24 2:32 PM
We did it one year for an event we were trying to attract people too. The event was a Futurity/Derby with a Jackpot and typically brought in some pro level girls who were carrying their time over from the Futurity/Derby races. They weren't racing again and because the ladies basically took home the 1D and 2D payouts people got tired of coming because the payouts in the 3D and 4D really weren't worth coming. (These were women coming from far away locations (16+ hours) where there are winter jackpots and lots of year round events so the local competitors didn't feel the event was worth attending.)
The year we made it equal we increased our attendance by 40% which made a huge difference and it brought people back to the event. It was great for attracting people and making decisions for the future of that event.
A lot of people made the same comment that if it's equal what is the incentive to get better. I've witnessed a lot of 1D riders who can't ride worth crap but can hang on (sometimes barely) and run a really fast horse. I've also witnessed a lot of 3D riders who can't afford anything more get the most out of their 3D horse with perfect patterns. Saying that a person won't get better has more factors then what a clock and a cheque says.
Just because there are equal payouts doesn't mean you're going to get a cheque so I don't understand why a person wouldn't attend (unless you make your living running barrels).
I have spent more years than most on this board have been alive, looking for, training and hauling to try and make that once in a lifetime horse. Why oh WHY would I waste my time and precious runs going to an equal payout?
Yeah, it's great for the 2,3,4,5 D riders and therefore the producers, but NOT for the true top competitors.
But then again, it also grinds my butt when I see someone touting themselves as a Champion (local, State, Regional, World ) only to discover that they are champions of consistently being 2 seconds slower than the fastest horse.
Yes I am old, and that IMHO.
I remember a post on Fallon Taylor’s page where she won a 2D buckle. Does this make her a 2D rider or is she still considered a “true top competitor”?
You should be very careful when you thumb your nose at the lower division riders for being proud of what they won. Keep in mind that placing in one of the lower divisions gives them incentives to keep entering and putting their money in the pot.
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25352
Location: Bastrop, Texas | They should just give out blue ribbons to everyone with a tag on back where you can fill in the time, location, and overall placing. Then they should award the top say 5 riders with cash, and have a random drawing for the rest.
In today's world where everyone's feelings need to be nurtured, that would fit nicely. | |
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 Googly Goo
Posts: 7053
| Somebody explain to me how equal payout among divisions is socialist but the 4D itself is not. | |
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25352
Location: Bastrop, Texas | TXBO - 2016-03-28 11:41 AM
Somebody explain to me how equal payout among divisions is socialist but the 4D itself is not.Â
Good question | |
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