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  The Original Cyber Bartender
    
Location: Washington | Anyone have the record of Latte's dam offspring, would love to see the Blacktype.
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 Googly Goo
Posts: 7053
| I wish they could clone Cathy Ireland. | |
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 BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25352
Location: Bastrop, Texas | TXBO - 2016-04-19 9:04 PM
I wish they could clone Cathy Ireland.
LMAO....good one, Jim | |
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Googly Goo
Posts: 7053
| Bear - 2016-04-19 9:35 PM TXBO - 2016-04-19 9:04 PM I wish they could clone Cathy Ireland. LMAO....good one, Jim
Prettiest eyes God ever made. | |
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 A Somebody to Everybody
Posts: 41354
Location: Under The Big Sky Of Texas | TXBO - 2016-04-19 9:38 PM Bear - 2016-04-19 9:35 PM TXBO - 2016-04-19 9:04 PM I wish they could clone Cathy Ireland. LMAO....good one, Jim Prettiest eyes God ever made.
Here you go guys..
Edited by Southtxponygirl 2016-04-19 9:53 PM
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Googly Goo
Posts: 7053
| Southtxponygirl - 2016-04-19 9:49 PM TXBO - 2016-04-19 9:38 PM Bear - 2016-04-19 9:35 PM TXBO - 2016-04-19 9:04 PM I wish they could clone Cathy Ireland. LMAO....good one, Jim Prettiest eyes God ever made.
Sweet! | |
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A Somebody to Everybody
Posts: 41354
Location: Under The Big Sky Of Texas | One more for the boys, lol
Edited by Southtxponygirl 2016-04-19 9:56 PM
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 747
| rodeoveteran - 2016-04-19 6:49 PM
Burn n' Turn - 2016-04-19 7:37 PM
In my honest opinion, why are we all on here fighting over an animal that you don't even own and you have nothing to do with? The owners will do with the clone what they choose to, and you won't have any impact on that. The decision is theirs to make, and they will be the ones that have to live with the consequences, NOT you.
And besides the point, how would a clone be any different than a full sibling? FWOTR has a full sibling, was there discussion on here about what the owners were going to do with him?
And people are going to think and do what they want. Some will breed to a full sibling/clone simply based on the performance of the siblings/original horse. While others will only breed to a stallion who has proven himself. To each their own, find something better to do then sit online and discuss something that has NOTHING to do with you.
There is a HUGH difference in between full siblings and a clone. When you have two complete sets of DNA contributing to offspring they an be combined in an almost infinite number on configurations. Did you take biology in high school? For example if you breed long haired guinea pigs with short haired guinea pigs, and add color with one hair type and color being dominant, you come up with a genotype ratio of 1/2/2/4/1/2/1/2/1 or a phenotype (appearance ) of 9/3/3/1. in other words you will have so many long haired white, short haired white, long haired black and short haired black g. pigs, but not all of those in any given group will have the same GENOTYPE, the genetics which they can pass on. And that is just TWO factors controlled by genetics. ( This is the same process by which those color calculators come up with color predictions ).
I never went much farther in to the study if genetics but have to wonder exactly how much influence the MITOCHONDRIAL DNA play, not to mention external chemistry etc., have to do with the final product. Perhaps our resident VIAGEN rep can give his two cents? And all of that does not answer the nature vs nurture question, i.e. would Scamper have been the force he was to be reckoned with if he had not had a less than ideal beginnings, and then to come to the hands of a young girl who became an incredible partner for whatever reasons?
Yes, I did take biology in high school but I guess I didn't care enough about it to stick with it and retain anything about cloning and DNA. I am however a business person and would be more than happy to write you a lovely report highlighting a cost/benefit analysis of all of the situations like just standing him, competing and him doing well and standing him, competing and him being mediocre at best and trying to stand him. Each scenario had its own costs and potential benefits, the owners just have to make the decision on their own as to how much risk they are willing to assume. | |
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 Not Afraid to Work
Posts: 4717
| And this might open up a new can of worms. I am not in the breeding business but I like to keep up on it and dream about it. I personally wont breed to an unproven stud. I think if more people felt this way, the cloning would dissipate. I believe in good bloodlines but I also believe in good heart, work ethic, natural athletic ability. I have seen some FWF studs who are incredible athletes, calm & collected and just plain nice. I have seen others that are NOT impressive. Whether it is training, atmosphere, bloodlines, none of us know. But it separates the great stallions from the mediocre ones.
I do know that there are studs out there with injuries and had to be retired. Those I feel a bit different about mainly because they didn't get the chance to prove themselves. I would probably still breed to something proven over that injured stud but I wouldn't rule it out. But I will rule these clones out, not because they're clones but because they refuse to run them. Without naming names, there are a few other studs who never hit the arena themselves for one fear or another.
Yes, I have seen unproven studs throw some incredible winners... but we don't know what they got from their stud. Was their success based on the mare power? An incredible trainer? Were they just a freak of nature?
Just my two cents. | |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 823
Location: East Texas | Most who are arguing about genetics should just UAA, and those like Jake from State Farm...sorry, Blake from Viagen...... who understand genetics are only telling partial truths.
Does a clone of Latte have great genetics? **** straight he does.
Will a clone of latte be exactly the same? no way. He could be better or worse, but either way I am still a fan of both horse and rider. | |
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Location: Not Where I Want to Be | stayceem - 2016-04-20 9:35 AM And this might open up a new can of worms. I am not in the breeding business but I like to keep up on it and dream about it. I personally wont breed to an unproven stud. I think if more people felt this way, the cloning would dissipate. I believe in good bloodlines but I also believe in good heart, work ethic, natural athletic ability. I have seen some FWF studs who are incredible athletes, calm & collected and just plain nice. I have seen others that are NOT impressive. Whether it is training, atmosphere, bloodlines, none of us know. But it separates the great stallions from the mediocre ones. I do know that there are studs out there with injuries and had to be retired. Those I feel a bit different about mainly because they didn't get the chance to prove themselves. I would probably still breed to something proven over that injured stud but I wouldn't rule it out. But I will rule these clones out, not because they're clones but because they refuse to run them. Without naming names, there are a few other studs who never hit the arena themselves for one fear or another. Yes, I have seen unproven studs throw some incredible winners... but we don't know what they got from their stud. Was their success based on the mare power? An incredible trainer? Were they just a freak of nature? Just my two cents.
I finally get the disconnect.
These animals are not being bred and marketed as a sire prospect.
They are being bred, marketed and stood as the "ORGINAL" these owners are selling you(the breeding public) on the fact that this clone is not a seperate individual that is being offered as a sire. IT is "latte" it is "hot shot" or "Frenchmans Guy" etc
That is why it is unwise to attempt to compete on these animals.
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 Extreme Veteran
Posts: 305
| Blaise Bercegeay is running a red man bay clone currently! She ran him at Lance Graves and just posted a video of him this week on Facebook! | |
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 Shelter Dog Lover
Posts: 10277
| 1DSoon - 2016-04-20 8:50 AM stayceem - 2016-04-20 9:35 AM And this might open up a new can of worms. I am not in the breeding business but I like to keep up on it and dream about it. I personally wont breed to an unproven stud. I think if more people felt this way, the cloning would dissipate. I believe in good bloodlines but I also believe in good heart, work ethic, natural athletic ability. I have seen some FWF studs who are incredible athletes, calm & collected and just plain nice. I have seen others that are NOT impressive. Whether it is training, atmosphere, bloodlines, none of us know. But it separates the great stallions from the mediocre ones. I do know that there are studs out there with injuries and had to be retired. Those I feel a bit different about mainly because they didn't get the chance to prove themselves. I would probably still breed to something proven over that injured stud but I wouldn't rule it out. But I will rule these clones out, not because they're clones but because they refuse to run them. Without naming names, there are a few other studs who never hit the arena themselves for one fear or another. Yes, I have seen unproven studs throw some incredible winners... but we don't know what they got from their stud. Was their success based on the mare power? An incredible trainer? Were they just a freak of nature? Just my two cents. I finally get the disconnect.
These animals are not being bred and marketed as a sire prospect.
They are being bred, marketed and stood as the "ORGINAL" these owners are selling you(the breeding public) on the fact that this clone is not a seperate individual that is being offered as a sire. IT is "latte" it is "hot shot" or "Frenchmans Guy" etc
That is why it is unwise to attempt to compete on these animals.
This ^^. The record is already proven in the original-no need to chance disproving it with the clone. You are buying Latte's get not Double Latte's.
I agree with others that there are more than genetics that make that amazing competitor. Apparently the owners of some of the clones might agree or you would see them in competition. | |
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Not Afraid to Work
Posts: 4717
| rodeomom3 - 2016-04-20 9:11 AM
1DSoon - 2016-04-20 8:50 AM stayceem - 2016-04-20 9:35 AM And this might open up a new can of worms. I am not in the breeding business but I like to keep up on it and dream about it. I personally wont breed to an unproven stud. I think if more people felt this way, the cloning would dissipate. I believe in good bloodlines but I also believe in good heart, work ethic, natural athletic ability. I have seen some FWF studs who are incredible athletes, calm & collected and just plain nice. I have seen others that are NOT impressive. Whether it is training, atmosphere, bloodlines, none of us know. But it separates the great stallions from the mediocre ones. I do know that there are studs out there with injuries and had to be retired. Those I feel a bit different about mainly because they didn't get the chance to prove themselves. I would probably still breed to something proven over that injured stud but I wouldn't rule it out. But I will rule these clones out, not because they're clones but because they refuse to run them. Without naming names, there are a few other studs who never hit the arena themselves for one fear or another. Yes, I have seen unproven studs throw some incredible winners... but we don't know what they got from their stud. Was their success based on the mare power? An incredible trainer? Were they just a freak of nature? Just my two cents. I finally get the disconnect.
These animals are not being bred and marketed as a sire prospect.
They are being bred, marketed and stood as the "ORGINAL" these owners are selling you(the breeding public) on the fact that this clone is not a seperate individual that is being offered as a sire. IT is "latte" it is "hot shot" or "Frenchmans Guy" etc
That is why it is unwise to attempt to compete on these animals.
I agree with others that there are more than genetics that make that amazing competitor. Apparently the owners of some of the clones might agree or you would see them in competition.
As much as I don't agree with not competing on them, I do understand how it is a smart business decision not to. Too much risk. And I guess no matter how they spin it, I wont breed to Hotshot's clone based on Hotshot's winnings. They're too separate horses in my mind and if they were really that confident in their genetics, they'd ride them. JMO. Again, I get why they don't... but I still think they should.
Edited by stayceem 2016-04-20 9:28 AM
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 Extreme Veteran
Posts: 486
Location: CentralTexas | Well I'll put my 2 cents in since this is exactly what I'm going to college for, about to get my Master's in. You don't clone animals to compete on them. You can't clone grit, you can't clone heart, or try, or toughness. No, you clone to carry on good genetics. Do I think it's smart? In my opinion, not really. I can't afford it, even though i would love to clone my nice horse who only has one full sister left alive and no brothers. Too much money with no guarantees. But if you have the money to do it, go ahead! The reason you clone is to keep those genetics alive. That's the main reason. It's very rarely about personal attachment or the fact that they want them as a pet for when the original dies. Red Man Bay, Latte, Hot Shot, Scamper. They were cloned to carry on those genetics since they were and are all geldings. Only one of these horses is still alive. I don't care if you agree with it on an ethical level, but for keeping the gene pool fresh, I'm all for it. There is too much inbreeding going on in our industry anyway. | |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 851
Location: West Texas | hannavashays - 2016-04-20 9:37 AM
Well I'll put my 2 cents in since this is exactly what I'm going to college for, about to get my Master's in. You don't clone animals to compete on them. You can't clone grit, you can't clone heart, or try, or toughness. No, you clone to carry on good genetics. Do I think it's smart? In my opinion, not really. I can't afford it, even though i would love to clone my nice horse who only has one full sister left alive and no brothers. Too much money with no guarantees. But if you have the money to do it, go ahead! The reason you clone is to keep those genetics alive. That's the main reason. It's very rarely about personal attachment or the fact that they want them as a pet for when the original dies. Red Man Bay, Latte, Hot Shot, Scamper. They were cloned to carry on those genetics since they were and are all geldings. Only one of these horses is still alive. I don't care if you agree with it on an ethical level, but for keeping the gene pool fresh, I'm all for it. There is too much inbreeding going on in our industry anyway.
Cloning will cause more inbreeding, not deliver us from it. If cloning ever becomes cheap enough, the gene pool with disappear into a puddle. | |
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 Queen Bee Cat Owner
Posts: 3629
Location: Way up North | I didn't read the whole thread and my opinion doesn't really matter but I feel like cloning is a perfect example of the way the world is now.
We don't have any more original ideas. We remake the same dang movies and shows a hundred times over. I remember when it was a big deal a movie got a sequel, now they just keep going and going. Books are the same. Tack and product makers copy each others ideas to the point everybody looks the same. We clone sires that have had huge, successful, long lists of progeny. At some point we have done away with originality and advancement which is ironic in a society that preaches to be those things.
It is equally amazing and horrific to me our scientific abilities to do things like cloning. I also see it as entirely unneccesary.
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1131
| hannavashays - 2016-04-20 10:37 AM
Well I'll put my 2 cents in since this is exactly what I'm going to college for, about to get my Master's in. You don't clone animals to compete on them. You can't clone grit, you can't clone heart, or try, or toughness. No, you clone to carry on good genetics. Do I think it's smart? In my opinion, not really. I can't afford it, even though i would love to clone my nice horse who only has one full sister left alive and no brothers. Too much money with no guarantees. But if you have the money to do it, go ahead! The reason you clone is to keep those genetics alive. That's the main reason. It's very rarely about personal attachment or the fact that they want them as a pet for when the original dies. Red Man Bay, Latte, Hot Shot, Scamper. They were cloned to carry on those genetics since they were and are all geldings. Only one of these horses is still alive. I don't care if you agree with it on an ethical level, but for keeping the gene pool fresh, I'm all for it. There is too much inbreeding going on in our industry anyway.
I understand why one would clone a gelding, especially one that isn't from major bloodlines. It does make for an outcross sire that has proven athletic ability.... but come on. They cloned frenchman's guy, not just once. That was probably the stupidest thing IMO. He has thousands of foals.... his time came and now his time needs to leave for the gene pool to survive. | |
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 Extreme Veteran
Posts: 582
Location: Wherever They Send Me | Soooo...if you breed a clone offspring to another clone offspring and compete on them at an equal payout barrel race...would the site implode??   | |
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 Expert
Posts: 1229
Location: Royal J Performance Horses, AZ | amandacamarano - 2016-04-20 9:11 AM
Soooo...if you breed a clone offspring to another clone offspring and compete on them at an equal payout barrel race...would the site implode??
I laughed at this way harder than I think I should have lol.... good one | |
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