trickster j - 2016-05-31 10:27 PM

Oh gladly-
OK, so in 2001 I went through a year long course in equine massage, this was so long ago I can't specifically remember exact training hours, but there were 4 modules to go through with the final one containing a complete dissection.  There was ALOT of anatomy involved in this course.  There were written exams each week and final practical exams at the end of each module which required evaluating, treating and reassessing our subjects.  This training earned me my Certification in Equine Massage, I went to this school in Loveland, CO and had the honor of being taught by not only the original founder of Equitouch (the program has drastically changed in the past 15 years) as well as Dave McLean who was one of the first equine chiros in our part of the country.

In 2006 I had a serious shoulder injury that made it very difficult (impossible) to work on horses as physically as I had before, and so I discovered the magic of microcurrent therapy- of which there is plenty of scientific research discussings the benefits of beginning in 1970 with the first machines which were called the Acuscope, to which they later added the Myoscope (name later changed to Myopulse) and then the Proscope 360 came shortly after these units, along with the Precision, MENS Miva and a few others whose names escape me right now.  30 years forward we have more technologically advanced and far more user-friendly machines- but that's another subject.  So yes, I am a certified microcurrent therapist as well- and this also involved an exam, practicum and field study.

In 2011 I met Jim Masterson, who is the author of "Beyond Horse Massage" and has been the official equine therpist for the USET.  His website is www.mastersonmethod.com if you are interested to know more about him.  His practitioner program consists of an initial weekend training followed by a 7 day advanced training, followed by a mimimum of a year of practical training consisting of 3 blocks of 15 case studies followed up with three weekends of hands on training with a certified coach.  This program also contained an intensive anatomy course- which I happily whizzed through because of my previous anatomy education.  Finally, when the field study and anatomy courses are completed, there is a 3-day finishing course where you work one on one with Jim and learn more advanced techniques and variations.  I cranked my way through Jim's certification process- but it generally takes over a year to complete, I worked my arse off and completed it in one.

In the meantime, I have been to Dr. Deb Bennett's 5-day dissection course, studied the works of Dr. Daniel Kamen, April Battles, and many, many more.  And previous to my shoulder injury, I had been a personal trainer (yes ACSM and AFAA certified) for 15 years, which made the anatomy and biomechanic elements easy for me to catch on too.  I was also a Johnny G. certfied Spinning Instructor, step aerobic and kickboxing certified as well- oh yes, and of course certified in CPR.  

I currently am working on my masters degree in professional counseling through Grand Canyon University, my goal is to be a Certified Equine Psychotherapist.  

Previous to all of this, I have been invloved with horses my entire life and have been blessed to be able to train under such legends as Peggy Cummings and Sally Swift- I've also attended numerous horsemanship, training, barrel racing, roping, reining, etc. clinics because I feel that I can never learn enough and that most everyone (even those without PhD's!) can offer me something to benefit my endeavours.  

eta:  I completely forgot that I have a 2-year associates degree from Central Wyoming College in Equine Science- funny this accomplishment is the one that I value the least!  

So enough about me- how about you and Bear?
 

Bear - 2016-05-31 10:35 PM What is a "human vascular nerve specialist"? Is that an alternative medicine term?

trickster j - 2016-06-01 12:54 AM


I am no expert in human biology- and nor do I claim ever to be, but a human vascular nerve specialist would be a person who is specially educated in the vascular nerve systems of human beings.  They treat and diagnose nerve pain and trauma- it is not a medical term, and I never claimed that it was, it is a term that I personally used to describe a doctor who specializes in nerve pain and treatments- does that make sense?  I'm sorry it was confusing- I am trying my hardest to keep this simple.....  

ndcowgirl - 2016-05-31 10:58 PM I'm guessing you meant neurologist.

ndcowgirl - 2016-05-31 10:52 PM I'd hire you if you lived closer

trickster j - 2016-05-31 10:30 PM Lol Bear- you're too funny- your assumptions make me giggle.   I was loading hay for awhile so didn't have time to deal with your nonsense, but i have now in response to NJJ's accusation that I was hell bent on something or other- I have answered your questions- let me know if you need more info.  This might get entertaining yet after all!  

eta: if I don't respond right away don't think I am "bowing out" of the discussion- I see that this is going to take some time to get through with you and I am committed to finishing it to the end.  I have to work on my paper for school- (gasp- online!! LOL).  I have to describe and analyze neoanalytic, Jungian and Individual Psychology Theory Applications.  Spending time with you here of course would be much more fun- but it's not doing much to further my education, it's just very amusing is all.  Thanks for your time- I am eagerly awaiting to see how you would like to bash me next-  

NJJ - 2016-06-01 4:39 AM Sorry, I logged off early last night  (hence the chirping crickets.....lol) However, I didn't ACCUSE you of anything other than your responses to him were unusually rude and obnoxious and you hadn't answered his question. I can see by your credentials (now that you have posted them) that you have had extensive "hands on" training.....much unlike those who just read a book; take an online class or just call themselves "certified".....THAT is the problem in the industry....not ones like you.......Those who have NO real experience nor any scientific facts to back what they are pushing and SELLING........ 



edited to add: Unfortunately your "condescending tone" towards others will get you nowhere in trying to educate.......

 

trickster j - 2016-06-01 8:13 AM


Yes....you do come off as EXTREMELY condescending on this and other threads. I do not know you or anyone else on here personally...have no dog in this fight...but I think despite your education and knowledge...you lack some degree of self awareness.


You took Dr. Ramey's stance as a direct attack on your certifications...I didn't see that as the good doctor's point at all. Perhaps you are being unnecessarily defensive...when in reality I would guess from other statements you have made...that you don't approve of or value huckster sham "certifications" any more than he does.

casualdust07 - 2016-05-31 8:36 PM


Gosh this stabs my heart. If you only knew how we truly feel. I'm just starting my fourth year of vet school, and am waiting on an emergency to come in.. so I have a few minutes to respond.

Every day we feel stupid, or at least I do. Every day I'm surrounded by vets who have anywhere from 2-40+ years experience on me. They ask me questions, they probe my brain, they challenge me. I feel like an idiot 99% of the time. In NO way do we feel like we know everything. In NO way do we feel like experts. We are shaking in our boots trying to remember everything we are taught, trying to figure out how these senior vets are so calm and collected making life and death decisions on horses. We use up what little vacation time we have to visit more and more clinics so we can get as much experience as we get. We take a job first year out of school making anywhere from 20-30,000 for that first year. Can you imagine, having a doctorate degree, and making $25,000? High paying internships pay around $35,000 and are few and far between. We **** sure don't do it for the money, we do it because we have this crazy calling to try and help both animals and people. Associates are lucky to break into 6 figure incomes.

So, I'm not sure what 1st year out of school vets you are talking about.. but I can tell you, every single one I have met knows exactly where they stand, how much they don't know, and how far we have to go. So, I'm going to pretend I didn't read this and I'm going to keep plugging along, head low, taking in as much as I can being the low man on the totem pole.

Three 4 Luck - 2016-06-01 9:29 AM

 Dr Ramey is an entertaining storyteller, but he is a very in the box thinker, and I have seen him dismiss things other vets and MDs are using very successfully, like PRP.   I asked him about that once, and his answer was basically if your vet is having so many success stories maybe she should be writing up case studies.  Maybe she has better things to do?  

Anyway, I take his FB posts with a grain of salt when I run across them. 

Bear - 2016-06-01 7:18 AM Nice try, Trickster, but I didn't "bully" anyone on this thread. I posted Ramey's article because it was funny, and I thought it was accurate. You jumped right out of the box with a litany of criticisms toward him, to the extent that I concluded Ramey's musings struck a nerve in you. In the end, you pulled out a common, last-ditch tool when you called me a "bully". You made references to my limited education, lack of an open mind, my age group, and went on to proclaim your intention to share our exchange with your therapy group. You even pressed me to list my educational background. You clearly listed your training which served to validate your certification, but Ramey's point was to shine a light on the question on the meaning of "certified"......by whom, how, by whose standards, etc.... It's one thing to be board certified in veterinary medicine, and quite another to be "certified" in some dubious alternative treatment modality or device. I'm quite sure that many very well trained, highly qualified vets are more than frustrated with their having to deal with increasing numbers of "certified" experts whose professionalism and understanding more closely resembles Amway than real science.

Bear - 2016-06-01 10:04 AM See, now I look at it differently than you. I'm assuming you are referring to platelet-rich therapy for ligament/tendon injuries in horses. I'll admit that there is a lot of excitement and optimism over PRP therapy, but I'm not sure there is yet a consensus on it, owing to a lack of large, randomized, controlled clinical trials. I emphasize that it does appear promising, however to a purist, the jury is still out. At least that's my understanding of where we're at. Maybe this issue has been settled and I'm just unaware of it, so correct me if I'm wrong. The last time I read about it, that's what I walked away with. Medicine, including veterinary medicine needs people like Dr Ramey to hold the line and insist on adherence to certain unwavering principles, in my opinion. There's something to be said for people who think "inside the box". I'd love to hear some opinions of some vets on this.

Three 4 Luck - 2016-06-01 10:44 AM


 I don't think there has been a consensus on PRP declared yet, but that doesn't stop doctors from using something that obviously works in a lot of cases unless they are very rigid in their thinking. And while I agree that "in the box" thinkers have value, a vet I like very much falls in that category, you are doing yourself a disservice to stop there. 

Anyway, I was just pointing out that a treatment that has become accepted as fairly mainstream in the last few years was poopooed upon as a waste of money by the instigator of this conversation.   It may not have all the evidence needed for consensus YET, but from what I have seen, it's only a matter of getting it proven because the merit is there. 

Tdove - 2016-06-01 9:23 AM


And how is being a vet unique to any other knowledge intensive profession? I did not say that to run down vets or new vets, especially. It is simple, my point was to say that certification doesn't mean anything to me. Experience and quality of performance do. This is true of any age group of professionals and not just vets. It is impossible to be a top vet within 5 years of vet school. Sorry, that is a fact. It wasn't meant to belittle you. It was meant to prove a point that experience matters much much more than a degree. This is true in every walk of life. If you want to be great at something, it will take a long time and experience.....You name it from horse training to investment banking. Most everyone works up the latter, that is how it should be. I don't know of any young person that fully realizes how little they know. You will likely find that out as time goes on. It never stops, if you are honest with yourself. So no I don't feel sorry for you. I don't think you should feel bothered by my post. I encourage you to go forward and be the best you can be, then you will be one of the good vets one day. It would be no different what you were studying to be, on the job is where you become successful or not. It really is 90% of your education in the long run. This is not meant to be negative toward you, but honestly finishing vet school does not and should not be any reason to expect any kind of salary. It only proves my point that your worth as a vet is not determined by that very hard earned diploma. As always, it is what you do with a degree (ANY degree) that matters.

I use vets almost everyday. I respect them and value them. I value the intense training at school and on the job they get. Sometimes that training does make them less attentive to other non vet specialist. I think that is what we are seeing in the article. The author has a very valid main point, but I just go further to say that no certification means too much to me, though yes some online certifications or weekend equine message is absolutely laughable. That is no doubt the point of the article, in which I do agree.

Bear - 2016-06-01 12:34 PM And, that is completely consistent with how I look at things. A lot of treatments "widely accepted as mainstream" prior to actually holding up to the scrutiny of scientific evaluation have gone by the wayside. Just because the mainstream, including a lot of competent doctors, widely accept a given treatment, doesn't mean it's gospel. I can cite endless examples. Bleeding to let out "evil humors", drilling holes in skulls for headaches, thalidomide, numerous operations, and so forth. Every year, it seems, medications formerly FDA approved, have been subsequently removed because of good studies that demonstrate a lack of efficacy or even safety. I don't know what treatment you are suggesting I "poo pooed", but in that same remark you suggested it still might not be proven therapy. I'm not ashamed to admit that many times in the course of my career I poo pooed a treatment modality, only to later change my mind as a result of good scientific study. I remember when laparoscopic gallbladder surgery was first introduced. I poo pooed it at first then as well. Two years later I was performing the operation routinely, as well as other operations. What changed my mind? Science and data. I'm not ashamed of that...I'm proud. Here's a remark you made that I find illustrative".....something that obviously works in a lot of cases." Think about that long and hard in the context of this discussion.