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 Famous for Not Complaining
Posts: 8848
     
Location: Broxton, Ga | smiley - 2014-04-22 5:00 PM bingo - 2014-04-23 2:01 PM Question- Does Cliven Bundy owe money to the government? Yes.
In grazing fees and fines for his cattle. There is a possible question of also owing taxes, but no one I have seen has been able to prove that one.
Harry Reid said he owed taxes just like he did about Mitt Romney............Mitt Romney didn't owe taxes...........js LOL | |
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  Semper Fi
Location: North Texas | CJE - 2014-04-23 7:51 PM
smiley - 2014-04-22 5:00 PM bingo - 2014-04-23 2:01 PM Question- Does Cliven Bundy owe money to the government? Yes.
In grazing fees and fines for his cattle. There is a possible question of also owing taxes, but no one I have seen has been able to prove that one. LOL
Harry Reid has been proven a LIAR on innumerous occasions. | |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 962
| foundation horse - 2014-04-23 9:57 PM
CJE - 2014-04-23 7:51 PM
smiley - 2014-04-22 5:00 PM bingo - 2014-04-23 2:01 PM Question- Does Cliven Bundy owe money to the government? Yes.
In grazing fees and fines for his cattle. There is a possible question of also owing taxes, but no one I have seen has been able to prove that one. LOL
Harry Reid has been proven a LIAR on innumerous occasions.
*NY Times article this morning (4-24) is shaking things up with media and politicians who support Cliven Bundy*
Claim by Bundy Family:
We have been here for generations and have run cattle here since the 1870’s.
Claim by Bundy Supporter:
“Western states don’t have the control over their land that Eastern states have over their land,” said Ivan Jones, 60, a brick mason who came here from Northern California. “Someone like the Bundys, they have been here for generations, before the B.L.M. was ever created, using this land to graze their animals. And the B.L.M. comes in and changes the rule. A small little rancher trying to make a living and they come in like big bullies.” (small ranchers don’t have 600 cows)
But, are the Bundy Family the real liars here*:
(From Crooks and Liars) Also, a factcheck for the New York Times. This paragraph needs to be corrected:
Mr. Bundy, whose family has grazed cattle here since they homesteaded in the 1870s, owes the government more than $1 million in grazing fees. He stopped paying after the bureau ordered him to restrict the periods when his herd roamed the 600,000-acre Gold Butte area as part of an effort to protect the endangered desert tortoise.
You got taken for a ride, NYT. Bundy's family didn't buy that land until 1948 and didn't start grazing their cattle on it until 1954. (and when you follow this link….http://crooksandliars.com/2014/04/bundys-ancestral-rights-story-load-crap) His cattle, until recently, roamed freely on land managed by the federal Bureau of Land Management. Before the roundup that sparked protests, confrontations and gunmen taking a bridge, Bundy explained his "ancestral rights" to the I-Team.(video)
"I've lived my lifetime here. My forefathers have been up and down the Virgin Valley here ever since 1877. All these rights that I claim, have been created through pre-emptive rights and beneficial use of the forage and the water and the access and range improvements," Bundy said.*(that’s what the Native Americans thought before the Federal Government evicted them in favor of people like the Bundys)*
Clark County property records show Cliven Bundy's parents moved from Bundyville, Arizona and bought the 160 acre ranch in 1948 from Raoul and Ruth Leavitt.
Water rights were transferred too, but only to the ranch, not the federally managed land surrounding it. Court records show Bundy family cattle didn't start grazing on that land until 1954.
The Bureau of Land Management was created 1946, the same year Cliven was born.(those pesky public [government]records)
*But it was this comment at a Bundy daily news conference that had spokespeople for Dean Heller R-NV and Rand Paul R-KY saying “Whoa There! We didn’t sign on to this cattle drive.”:*
“I want to tell you one more thing I know about the Negro,” he said. Mr. Bundy recalled driving past a public-housing project in North Las Vegas, “and in front of that government house the door was usually open and the older people and the kids — and there is always at least a half a dozen people sitting on the porch — they didn’t have nothing to do. They didn’t have nothing for their kids to do. They didn’t have nothing for their young girls to do.
“And because they were basically on government subsidy, so now what do they do?” he asked. “They abort their young children, they put their young men in jail, because they never learned how to pick cotton. And I’ve often wondered, are they better off as slaves, picking cotton and having a family life and doing things, or are they better off under government subsidy? They didn’t get no more freedom. They got less freedom.”
*Conservative Hero or Racist Lying Welfare Cowboy? The debate goes on.*
Links to the entire articles:
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/24/us/politics/rancher-proudly-break...
http://crooksandliars.com/2014/04/cliven-bundy-muses-what-he-knows-...
http://crooksandliars.com/2014/04/bundys-ancestral-rights-story-loa...
*my contributions*
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 Always Off Topic
Posts: 6382
Location: ND | Cliven Bundy is a stupid stupid man and those that have jumped in blindly with their support just to use this as their anti govt platform have SCREWED everyone else that has a legitimate anti govt complaint....THANKS ALOT.....i hope the feds confiscate all of Nevada and turn into one big solar panel..... | |
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 Googly Goo
Posts: 7053
| dhdqhllc - 2014-04-24 9:22 AM Cliven Bundy is a stupid stupid man and those that have jumped in blindly with their support just to use this as their anti govt platform have SCREWED everyone else that has a legitimate anti govt complaint....THANKS ALOT.....i hope the feds confiscate all of Nevada and turn into one big solar panel.....
LIKE | |
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Grammar Expert
| dhdqhllc - 2014-04-24 8:22 AM Cliven Bundy is a stupid stupid man and those that have jumped in blindly with their support just to use this as their anti govt platform have SCREWED everyone else that has a legitimate anti govt complaint....THANKS ALOT.....i hope the feds confiscate all of Nevada and turn into one big solar panel.....
Oh, the irony............
Also LIKE. | |
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 Voice of Reason
Location: NOT at Wal Mart | I'm lovin it, all the fools that jumped on that bandwagon..... how do you like him now?  | |
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Semper Fi
Location: North Texas | Not the first time I have been wrong. Nor will it be the last time.
However, I still stand by the idea The BLM's Armed Invasion was uncalled for and wrong!
And Harry Reid has still been proven a liar much more often than Cliven Bundy. | |
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Semper Fi
Location: North Texas | FinneyQuarterHorses - 2014-04-24 8:53 AM
foundation horse - 2014-04-23 9:57 PM
CJE - 2014-04-23 7:51 PM
smiley - 2014-04-22 5:00 PM bingo - 2014-04-23 2:01 PM Question- Does Cliven Bundy owe money to the government? Yes.
In grazing fees and fines for his cattle. There is a possible question of also owing taxes, but no one I have seen has been able to prove that one. LOL
Harry Reid has been proven a LIAR on innumerous occasions.
*NY Times article this morning (4-24 ) is shaking things up with media and politicians who support Cliven Bundy*
Claim by Bundy Family:
We have been here for generations and have run cattle here since the 1870’s.
Claim by Bundy Supporter:
“Western states don’t have the control over their land that Eastern states have over their land,” said Ivan Jones, 60, a brick mason who came here from Northern California. “Someone like the Bundys, they have been here for generations, before the B.L.M. was ever created, using this land to graze their animals. And the B.L.M. comes in and changes the rule. A small little rancher trying to make a living and they come in like big bullies.” (small ranchers don’t have 600 cows )
But, are the Bundy Family the real liars here*:
(From Crooks and Liars ) Also, a factcheck for the New York Times. This paragraph needs to be corrected:
Mr. Bundy, whose family has grazed cattle here since they homesteaded in the 1870s, owes the government more than $1 million in grazing fees. He stopped paying after the bureau ordered him to restrict the periods when his herd roamed the 600,000-acre Gold Butte area as part of an effort to protect the endangered desert tortoise.
You got taken for a ride, NYT. Bundy's family didn't buy that land until 1948 and didn't start grazing their cattle on it until 1954. (and when you follow this link….http://crooksandliars.com/2014/04/bundys-ancestral-rights-story-load-crap ) His cattle, until recently, roamed freely on land managed by the federal Bureau of Land Management. Before the roundup that sparked protests, confrontations and gunmen taking a bridge, Bundy explained his "ancestral rights" to the I-Team. (video )
"I've lived my lifetime here. My forefathers have been up and down the Virgin Valley here ever since 1877. All these rights that I claim, have been created through pre-emptive rights and beneficial use of the forage and the water and the access and range improvements," Bundy said.* (that’s what the Native Americans thought before the Federal Government evicted them in favor of people like the Bundys )*
Clark County property records show Cliven Bundy's parents moved from Bundyville, Arizona and bought the 160 acre ranch in 1948 from Raoul and Ruth Leavitt.
Water rights were transferred too, but only to the ranch, not the federally managed land surrounding it. Court records show Bundy family cattle didn't start grazing on that land until 1954.
The Bureau of Land Management was created 1946, the same year Cliven was born. (those pesky public [government]records )
*But it was this comment at a Bundy daily news conference that had spokespeople for Dean Heller R-NV and Rand Paul R-KY saying “Whoa There! We didn’t sign on to this cattle drive.”:*
“I want to tell you one more thing I know about the Negro,” he said. Mr. Bundy recalled driving past a public-housing project in North Las Vegas, “and in front of that government house the door was usually open and the older people and the kids — and there is always at least a half a dozen people sitting on the porch — they didn’t have nothing to do. They didn’t have nothing for their kids to do. They didn’t have nothing for their young girls to do.
“And because they were basically on government subsidy, so now what do they do?” he asked. “They abort their young children, they put their young men in jail, because they never learned how to pick cotton. And I’ve often wondered, are they better off as slaves, picking cotton and having a family life and doing things, or are they better off under government subsidy? They didn’t get no more freedom. They got less freedom.”
*Conservative Hero or Racist Lying Welfare Cowboy? The debate goes on.*
Links to the entire articles:
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/24/us/politics/rancher-proudly-break...
http://crooksandliars.com/2014/04/cliven-bundy-muses-what-he-knows-...
http://crooksandliars.com/2014/04/bundys-ancestral-rights-story-loa...
*my contributions*
So I suppose Harry Reid is not a liar. That was the whole point of my post. Nice Deflection there Mrs. Finney. | |
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Voice of Reason
Location: NOT at Wal Mart | foundation horse - 2014-04-24 8:42 AM Not the first time I have been wrong. Nor will it be the last time. However, I still stand by the idea The BLM's Armed Invasion was uncalled for and wrong! And Harry Reid has still been proven a liar much more often than Cliven Bundy.
Yup, yup. | |
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Always Off Topic
Posts: 6382
Location: ND | foundation horse - 2014-04-24 10:42 AM Not the first time I have been wrong. Nor will it be the last time. However, I still stand by the idea The BLM's Armed Invasion was uncalled for and wrong! And Harry Reid has still been proven a liar much more often than Cliven Bundy.
agreed.....but i will still say 'told you so'.... | |
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| *Conservative Hero or Racist Lying Welfare Cowboy? The debate goes on.*
Yep, those pesky government records. I think our government has gone WAY too far into the abyss w/corruption, but that fact is now allowing others to play the same game. You see it everyday in people trying to live a life they can't support, yet think someone else should pay up. It will be interesting to see where all this leads. Has there been any discussion on simply throwing his tax evading butt in jail IF that is the case? Of course that's hard to do when members in our president's own administration have "avoided" paying their taxes too. | |
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Semper Fi
Location: North Texas | dhdqhllc - 2014-04-24 10:49 AM
foundation horse - 2014-04-24 10:42 AM Not the first time I have been wrong. Nor will it be the last time. However, I still stand by the idea The BLM's Armed Invasion was uncalled for and wrong! And Harry Reid has still been proven a liar much more often than Cliven Bundy.
agreed.....but i will still say 'told you so'....
You have that right under The 1st Amendment. | |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 962
| foundation horse - 2014-04-24 10:44 AM
FinneyQuarterHorses - 2014-04-24 8:53 AM
foundation horse - 2014-04-23 9:57 PM
CJE - 2014-04-23 7:51 PM
smiley - 2014-04-22 5:00 PM bingo - 2014-04-23 2:01 PM Question- Does Cliven Bundy owe money to the government? Yes.
In grazing fees and fines for his cattle. There is a possible question of also owing taxes, but no one I have seen has been able to prove that one. LOL
Harry Reid has been proven a LIAR on innumerous occasions.
*NY Times article this morning (4-24 ) is shaking things up with media and politicians who support Cliven Bundy*
Claim by Bundy Family:
We have been here for generations and have run cattle here since the 1870’s.
Claim by Bundy Supporter:
“Western states don’t have the control over their land that Eastern states have over their land,” said Ivan Jones, 60, a brick mason who came here from Northern California. “Someone like the Bundys, they have been here for generations, before the B.L.M. was ever created, using this land to graze their animals. And the B.L.M. comes in and changes the rule. A small little rancher trying to make a living and they come in like big bullies.” (small ranchers don’t have 600 cows )
But, are the Bundy Family the real liars here*:
(From Crooks and Liars ) Also, a factcheck for the New York Times. This paragraph needs to be corrected:
Mr. Bundy, whose family has grazed cattle here since they homesteaded in the 1870s, owes the government more than $1 million in grazing fees. He stopped paying after the bureau ordered him to restrict the periods when his herd roamed the 600,000-acre Gold Butte area as part of an effort to protect the endangered desert tortoise.
You got taken for a ride, NYT. Bundy's family didn't buy that land until 1948 and didn't start grazing their cattle on it until 1954. (and when you follow this link….http://crooksandliars.com/2014/04/bundys-ancestral-rights-story-load-crap ) His cattle, until recently, roamed freely on land managed by the federal Bureau of Land Management. Before the roundup that sparked protests, confrontations and gunmen taking a bridge, Bundy explained his "ancestral rights" to the I-Team. (video )
"I've lived my lifetime here. My forefathers have been up and down the Virgin Valley here ever since 1877. All these rights that I claim, have been created through pre-emptive rights and beneficial use of the forage and the water and the access and range improvements," Bundy said.* (that’s what the Native Americans thought before the Federal Government evicted them in favor of people like the Bundys )*
Clark County property records show Cliven Bundy's parents moved from Bundyville, Arizona and bought the 160 acre ranch in 1948 from Raoul and Ruth Leavitt.
Water rights were transferred too, but only to the ranch, not the federally managed land surrounding it. Court records show Bundy family cattle didn't start grazing on that land until 1954.
The Bureau of Land Management was created 1946, the same year Cliven was born. (those pesky public [government]records )
*But it was this comment at a Bundy daily news conference that had spokespeople for Dean Heller R-NV and Rand Paul R-KY saying “Whoa There! We didn’t sign on to this cattle drive.”:*
“I want to tell you one more thing I know about the Negro,” he said. Mr. Bundy recalled driving past a public-housing project in North Las Vegas, “and in front of that government house the door was usually open and the older people and the kids — and there is always at least a half a dozen people sitting on the porch — they didn’t have nothing to do. They didn’t have nothing for their kids to do. They didn’t have nothing for their young girls to do.
“And because they were basically on government subsidy, so now what do they do?” he asked. “They abort their young children, they put their young men in jail, because they never learned how to pick cotton. And I’ve often wondered, are they better off as slaves, picking cotton and having a family life and doing things, or are they better off under government subsidy? They didn’t get no more freedom. They got less freedom.”
*Conservative Hero or Racist Lying Welfare Cowboy? The debate goes on.*
Links to the entire articles:
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/24/us/politics/rancher-proudly-break...
http://crooksandliars.com/2014/04/cliven-bundy-muses-what-he-knows-...
http://crooksandliars.com/2014/04/bundys-ancestral-rights-story-loa...
*my contributions*
So I suppose Harry Reid is not a liar. That was the whole point of my post. Nice Deflection there Mrs. Finney.
I stilll haven't figured out why you insist on calling me "Mrs. Finney" in that derogatory way. It would be interesting to know your thoughts on that.
What Harry Reid has said or done, truthful or otherwise, has nothing to do with Cliven Bundy and his anti-government fettish, so it really adds nothing to the conversation except titilation to his haters.
Some of this would actually be amusing if it wasn't for the fact that Waco gave rise to Timothy McVeigh, the Oklahoma City bomber who murdered many people, including 13 children, who never had any thoughts except to go to work and do their job. In fact, just like the BLM guys who were given a task by their boss, and could have been killed rounding up cows, for Pete's sake. With all the militia talk and fringe websites abuzz with their victory of "backing down the Feds with our guns" and "where can we go next" talk, I'm afraid that all Cliven Bundy did was add fuel to a smoldering fire that will never go out, but is just waiting to burn bright again. Questioning government overreach and the amount of land the BLM controls is everyone's right and can be handled through many avenues that don't include an armed insurgance against the Federal Government. I do have to agree with Harry on that one. The men and women who came to "stand with Bundy" are nothing more than domestic terrorists, and I do hope the new facial recognition software that the FBI has will identify those who brought guns across state lines and pointed them at law enforcement. They crossed the line between mere protesting and support and showed they are willing to shoot and kill innocent people, or be killed, for an ideology that is foreign to most Americans. And in that moment, they became a lot more dangerous than Harry Reid. | |
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 Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | I might not be right, but, I'm never wrong.. Lol!
Besides, It ain't over till the fat lady sings...and I'm not singing...yet.
Seriously, these types of discussions can either find us on the same page or we can continue to play childish games that only serve to divide us further. IF Cliven Bundy hasn't paid his income taxes...IF he lied about his heritage & family ties to the land...does that make what the BLM did okay? Wayne Hage didn't buy his land until 1978...his 'family ties' to the land had nothing to do with the jurisdiction or who holds authority....so why would the Bundy's lie? That's definitely a 'wait & see' thing.
This is why we have our judicial system, and regardless of what TXBO tried to say about me, I'm a huge supporter of being judged by a 'jury of our peers' in a court of law that is Constitutional & within the checks/balances of our federal responsibilities. Many folks continue to want the federal gov't to have the power over the people...and I don't. I absolutely support local power in all things that aren't specifically held by the fed as outlined & intended. I refuse to apologize for that attitude & find it very sad, perhaps even scary, that someone like Bundy is now under such a microscope & we allow it to tear us apart even more. This is what socialism looks like...
I honestly don't know what the real truth in his situation is concerning his family history...I don't really care excepting 'if' he lied. Other than that, we still need to determine who has the jurisdiction over 'public lands'. Careful there...let's not miss the point of what the problem is.
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Grammar Expert
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Yes, it does, IMO, the BLM showed in force based on previous encounters with this family and the fact that the family and others were protesting and asked for and rec'd "others" via militias and oath keepers.
Yes, HIS lies matter. He put REAL people - people who believed him in danger...........you're ability to let him off the hook is kinda annoying to be honest.
There is no doubt Reid is pond scum, but as Finney said - the two are not related. One does not negate the other. | |
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Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | smiley - 2014-04-24 11:03 AM Yes, it does, IMO, the BLM showed in force based on previous encounters with this family and the fact that the family and others were protesting and asked for and rec'd "others" via militias and oath keepers.
Yes, HIS lies matter. He put REAL people - people who believed him in danger...........you're ability to let him off the hook is kinda annoying to be honest.
There is no doubt Reid is pond scum, but as Finney said - the two are not related. One does not negate the other.
I do believe he was in danger...the 1st 'snipers' were not representing 'the people'.
Anyhow...I just watched this video & I think it's by far the best summary of what is going on in our world...please watch. There are some great things that can come from this...we really don't need to be at each other's throats...it does the world no good & if ANY good can come from this...it needs to.
We all get to meet our Maker someday...in doing so we get to meet 'self'. Mercy.
This is good...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=t84xLD2KbO4
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 I'm not opinionated
Posts: 4597
Location: Online | foundation horse - 2014-04-24 9:42 AM Not the first time I have been wrong. Nor will it be the last time. However, I still stand by the idea The BLM's Armed Invasion was uncalled for and wrong! And Harry Reid has still been proven a liar much more often than Cliven Bundy.
Every time Bundy has opened his mouth he has dropped a rung on my support ladder. This last time, he fell off. What he said was wrong, but it is also his 1st Amendment right to say what he wants. (maybe he was in a "1st Amendment zone" when he said it) I'm not defending his words or actions, just his right.
(Since I still have Finney on ignore, I don't know what she copied and pasted, I'm assuming it had something to do with the racist comments. I'm sure it made her feel good).
I stand behind what I've said before, there is always more to the story than what the media reports. I agree with FH, the BLM was wrong in their handling of the situation. Just the fact that Harry is involved stinks to high hell. They just took advantage of an old senile crackpot's stupidity to get what they've wanted all along. He just made it way too easy.
I'm done with this subject. | |
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 Undercover Amish Mafia Member
Posts: 9992
Location: Kansas | O shhhhhhhhhh...........how have I missed this thread for this long?!@?!?
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Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | musikmaker - 2014-04-24 11:11 AM smiley - 2014-04-24 11:03 AM Yes, it does, IMO, the BLM showed in force based on previous encounters with this family and the fact that the family and others were protesting and asked for and rec'd "others" via militias and oath keepers.
Yes, HIS lies matter. He put REAL people - people who believed him in danger...........you're ability to let him off the hook is kinda annoying to be honest.
There is no doubt Reid is pond scum, but as Finney said - the two are not related. One does not negate the other.
Anyhow...I just watched this video & I think it's by far the best summary of what is going on in our world...please watch. There are some great things that can come from this...we really don't need to be at each other's throats...it does the world no good & if ANY good can come from this...it needs to.
We all get to meet our Maker someday...in doing so we get to meet 'self'. Mercy.
This is good...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=t84xLD2KbO4
I saw this & thought it was funny...for all those who are so ready to hang this man...settle down!
This is an old man who tells it like he sees it...sure, it's not pc...'negro' is an old fashioned referral that's no longer appropriate (since it changes every year it's hard to keep up)...in hearing his response it's clear he still doesn't 'get' how some chose to take it...I know if I heard that from some like minded people of his generation I would take it just how he said it...the 'new' slavery is no better and even worse than the 'old' slavery. He never intimated that it was better than freedom. We all need to get a grip & stop allowing the media to spin things.
This is concerning his 'heritage' that was brought into question...sorry to be so 'annoying'...lol.
This was posted by a supporter who did her homework-I figured out that the investigative reporter who wrote this article didn't do a very thorough job and was searching the wrong names. He should have searched for the surname Leavitt. Cliven Bundy is a direct decedent of Dudley Leavitt who would be Cliven's great great grandfather. It appears Dudley was the direct ancestor on Cliven's mother' side that first came to settle in Bunkerville,NV.
http://www.8newsnow.com/story/25301551/bundys-ancestral-rights-come-under-scrutiny
There is inaccurate information in this article.
"Early census records show Cliven's maternal grandmother,Christena Jensen,was born in Nevada in 1901. One genealogical researcher says records indicate Jensen helped settle Bunkerville some years later."
This is INACCURATE: (they even spelled her name wrong): Clive's maternal grandmother's name is Abigail Christina ABBOTT Jenson born 22 JAN 1891 Bunkerville,Clark Co.,NV
"Clark County property records show Cliven Bundy's parents moved from Bundyville, Arizona and bought the 160 acre ranch in 1948 from Raoul and Ruth Leavitt."
Raoul Leavitt was a decedent of Dudley Leavitt,Clive's great great grandfather. Clive's great grandmother Mary Jane Leavitt's father was Dudley Leavitt who is Cliven Bundy's great great grandfather,he married a woman from Utah,Mary Huntsman in 1853,and eventually (probably 1877 as Clive has been saying) they settled in Bunkerville NV until Dudley died there in 1908.
Cliven Bundy inherited his ancestral rights that has been handed down through five generations in a direct line with the first generation being his great great grandfather Dudley Leavitt on his mothers side,who came from Salt Lake City Utah to settle in Bunkerville,NV sometime between 1853 when he married his wife Mary Huntsman to when he died in 1908 in Bunkerville (Cliven Bundy has claimed it was in 1877).
Cliven inherited his ancestral land rights from these ancestors in this order: Cliven's mother Margaret Bodel JENSON-Bundy - Cliven's grandmother,Margaret's mother,Abigail Christina ABBOTT-Jenson - Cliven's great grandmother,Mary Jane LEAVITT-Abbott. Abigail "Christina" Abbot-Jenson's mother, Cliven's great great grandfather Dudley Leavitt,Mary Jane Leavitt-Abbott's father.
This research was conducted here at the Rootsweb Ancestry website here:
http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi? op=PED&db=dowfam3&id=I549063
Edited by musikmaker 2014-04-24 1:32 PM
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Folks on-line