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 Regular
Posts: 66
Location: Burns, WY | BarrelHorseUSA, I seem to recall you spouting something like this on another group as well.
First of, PSSM Type 1 is a genetic disease that is a mutation of the GSY1 gene and it is an inherited genetic disease. There has been folks who have tested out foals that are 2 weeks or less of age because one or both parents were tested positive for PSSM Type 1 and the foals have come back positive for PSSM Type 1. I know of one lady who tested her stud, he came back as PSSM n/P1, then she tested a son of his and he came back PSSM n/P1, then she had 2 foals from the son, tested this year and both came back as PSSM n/P1. Back over a year ago, I bought a foal from her positive stud and he tested out negative and he was tested once by her and then tested again by me.
Then, I know of another lady who is using embryo testing to get negative foals from her PSSM n/P1 mare. These embryos are only 7 to 10 days old and the first embryos that they collected were positive for PSSM. Finally, on the second collection of embryos, they were able to get two embryos that were negative for PSSM Type 1.
Now, explain to me how embryos, that haven't even come into this world as a foal can be positive for PSSM when they haven't eaten any of these manufactured feeds.
Edited by appycowgirl 2013-07-14 2:01 PM
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Regular
Posts: 66
Location: Burns, WY | Barlracrchick, there is several suspects back there as I have suspected Sugar Bars and then I saw the mare Flit who traces to Julie W and I have suspected Julie W as well.
I'm still out on whether Colonel Freckles could be a possible suspect or not. I've seen positives with him in there and of course others who have tested out negative as well.
Edited by appycowgirl 2013-07-14 2:29 PM
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 Thick and Wavy
Posts: 6102
  
Location: Nebraska | appycowgirl - 2013-07-14 2:11 PM Barlracrchick, there is several suspects back there as I have suspected Sugar Bars and then I saw the made Flit who traces to Julie W and I have suspected Julie W as well. I'm still out on whether Colonel Freckles could be a possible suspect or not. I've seen positives with him in there and of course others who have tested out negative as well.
Thanks. We've been battling an unknown soreness in this mare for quite awhile. I ended up giving her a year off and she seems better. She's now drylotted, grain has been cut in half, and only has a small window of grass time. I was just wondering if that change in her diet has helped even a little. | |
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Regular
Posts: 66
Location: Burns, WY | The thing that people keep forgetting is that stuff like HYPP, HERDA, GBED and PSSM are all genetic diseases and from the minute that a sperm inseminates the egg those genes that the resulting foal will have, are set in stone.
Now, could you ultimately manufacture problems for this foal from the day it is born, SURE, but those problems will be ones that are chemically induced and they will have nothing to do with the genes that a foal is given from its parents.
Like take PSSM for instance, it is an inherited genetic disease. Now, can we affect how PSSM acts and behaves, SURE because we can give these horses too much hard feed or we can lock them down in a stall as well. Then, for most horses, once we change their diet and exercise programs, we can help them to overcome the affects of this genetic disease.
Now, there are some horses that haven't been given hard feeds or stalled and yet they have problems with PSSM, then the opposite can be said as well as there is horses who have been fed completely wrong and stalled and yet they test positive and so far, they have yet to show any signs. | |
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Regular
Posts: 66
Location: Burns, WY | brlracerchick - 2013-07-14 2:21 PM
appycowgirl - 2013-07-14 2:11 PM Barlracrchick, there is several suspects back there as I have suspected Sugar Bars and then I saw the made Flit who traces to Julie W and I have suspected Julie W as well. I'm still out on whether Colonel Freckles could be a possible suspect or not. I've seen positives with him in there and of course others who have tested out negative as well.
Thanks. We've been battling an unknown soreness in this mare for quite awhile. I ended up giving her a year off and she seems better. She's now drylotted, grain has been cut in half, and only has a small window of grass time. I was just wondering if that change in her diet has helped even a little.
Even if you have cut her grain in half, its not going to help her because the percetange of NSCs is still there, so you need to find a low starch/ sugar feed instead. The good thing is to have her tested through Animal Genetics will only take a week and then you'll know. Then, if she does come back negative, have your vet do a blood panel and specifically check the CK and AST levels and see if those are elevated. If they are, you can do a muscle biopsy if you choose to do so. | |
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Regular
Posts: 66
Location: Burns, WY | Also, BarrelHorseUSA, I remember back some time ago that I looked at some of your horses that you were offering, if this is the same person whose horses I looked at, and I saw several spots were some of your horses could be positive for PSSM. Of course a genetic disease panel will clear your horses and like someone else mentioned, whether you like it or not, if you own an AQHA stallion, you'll be forced to do the 5 panel on him in 2015 as ALL AQHA breeding stallions will be required to be tested.
Edited by appycowgirl 2013-07-14 2:49 PM
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Meanest Teacher!!!
Posts: 8552
 
Location: sunny california | I think I have reached the point that I will not breed to any stallion that has not had the panel done. | |
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Meanest Teacher!!!
Posts: 8552
Location: sunny california | appycowgirl - 2013-07-14 12:34 PM Also, BarrelHorseUSA, I remember back some time ago that I looked at some of your horses that you were offering, if this is the same person whose horses I looked at, and I saw several spots were some of your horses could be positive for PSSM. Of course a genetic disease panel will clear your horses and like someone else mentioned, whether you like it or not, if you own an AQHA stallion, you'll be forced to do the 5 panel on him in 2015 as ALL AQHA breeding stallions will be required to be tested.
i noticed that too the first thing i thought of was his stallion when I looked at the list. | |
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  Champ
Posts: 19623
Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm | As soon as I get caught up with my vet bills and breeding season I'm planning to order the packet for the test.  Bettering the BreedThe AQHA Stud Book and Registration Committee approves genetic panel test measures at the 2013 AQHA Convention.The American Quarter Horse Association
June 7, 2013  The AQHA Stud Book and Registration Committee’s report from the 2013 AQHA Convention is available for viewing at www.aqha.com/convention. All stallions exposed to 25 or more mares during the 2014 breeding season will be required to have a genetic disease panel test on file with AQHA prior to the registration of their foals resulting from breedings occurring after January 1, 2014. This rule was approved by the AQHA Stud Book and Registration Committee at the 2013 AQHA Convention in March.
Additionally, the Stud Book and Registration Committee recommended that all stallions will be required to have a genetic disease panel test on file with AQHA prior to the registration of their foals resulting from breedings occurring after January 1, 2015.
The AQHA members attending the convention membership business meeting agreed with the Stud Book and Registration Committee’s recommendation, and the recommendation was adopted by the AQHA Board of Directors. These new rules will be denoted as Rule REG108.4 and REG108.5 in the 2014 AQHA Official Handbook of Rules and Regulations.
AQHA offers a panel test for five genetic diseases – glycogen branching enzyme deficiency (GBED), hereditary equine regional dermal asthenia (HERDA), hyperkalemic periodic paralysis (HYPP), malignant hyperthermia (MH) and type 1 polysaccharide storage myopathy (PSSM1). These panel tests, which are processed by the University of California-Davis, were offered for the first time in February 2012.
AQHA endeavors to educate its membership and protect the welfare and integrity of the breed. And at the convention, the Stud Book and Registration Committee approved new rules that will further accomplish all three aims. The report from the committee is the only AQHA committee report that is not subject to AQHA Executive Committee approval, meaning all decisions made by the AQHA Board of Directors regarding the Stud Book and Registration Committee’s recommendations are final.
In addition to the genetic disease panel test requirements, the Stud Book and Registration Committee once again considered a rule change proposal concerning cloning. The proposal requested that various AQHA rules be amended so as to allow for the registration of the offspring of horses produced through somatic cell nuclear transfer, a particular form of cloning. After discussion, the Stud Book and Registration Committee recommended that the proposal be denied. AQHA members attending the convention membership business meeting agreed with the committee’s recommendation.
The Board of Directors also agreed with the committee’s recommendation and denied the proposal.
AQHA 40-year breeder Carol Rose was re-elected as the Stud Book and Registration Committee chairwoman at the convention and will fulfill her third term in the position for 2013-14. The AQHA members that make up the Stud Book and Registration Committee represent a great cross-section of the membership, Rose said.
“Everybody on that committee has a lot of knowledge of the American Quarter Horse and cares about the American Quarter Horse,” she added.
The AQHA Stud Book and Registration Committee’s report from the 2013 AQHA Convention is available for viewing at www.aqha.com/convention.
Ordering Genetic Panel Tests
To help breeders make informed decisions, AQHA now offers a panel test for five genetic diseases – glycogen branching enzyme deficiency, hereditary equine regional dermal asthenia, hyperkalemic periodic paralysis, malignant hyperthermia and type 1 polysaccharide storage myopathy.
When the test is ordered, AQHA will send a DNA kit, and the owner will mail it to the Veterinary Genetics Laboratory at the University of California-Davis for testing. Once the tests are complete, AQHA will notify the owners and put the results on the horse’s record.
The test cost $85 for members and $125 for nonmembers. For the panel test in conjunction with the DNA test required for most breeding stock, the cost is $105 for members.
The effects of these diseases are wide-ranging, from mild and manageable to severe and terminal. Passing these diseases on to successive generations often causes unnecessary suffering and also leads to financial losses for breeders. | |
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 Diva
Location: SP, Brazil | I did a lot of research on this 10 years ago while I was in college studying nutrition, so I have seen and personally dealt with this for a long time.
As a trainer, the bloodlines that I have personally rode and trained with this problem were: Dash Ta Fame and Cash Not Credit. I also rode A LOT of FWF horses and none of them showed me symptoms, and here in Brazil the number one studs are also Sugar Bar bred, so TO ME, I don't think Sugar Bars is the problem. But that is just my opinion. | |
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 "Drank the Kool Aid"
Posts: 5496
Location: Iowa, LA | Sharp - 2013-07-15 7:45 AM I did a lot of research on this 10 years ago while I was in college studying nutrition, so I have seen and personally dealt with this for a long time. As a trainer, the bloodlines that I have personally rode and trained with this problem were: Dash Ta Fame and Cash Not Credit. I also rode A LOT of FWF horses and none of them showed me symptoms, and here in Brazil the number one studs are also Sugar Bar bred, so TO ME, I don't think Sugar Bars is the problem. But that is just my opinion.
I've often wondered about DTF because of the reputation that the mares have gotten! Glad you gave some input. | |
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Meanest Teacher!!!
Posts: 8552
Location: sunny california | Sharp - 2013-07-15 5:45 AM I did a lot of research on this 10 years ago while I was in college studying nutrition, so I have seen and personally dealt with this for a long time. As a trainer, the bloodlines that I have personally rode and trained with this problem were: Dash Ta Fame and Cash Not Credit. I also rode A LOT of FWF horses and none of them showed me symptoms, and here in Brazil the number one studs are also Sugar Bar bred, so TO ME, I don't think Sugar Bars is the problem. But that is just my opinion.
were these horses type 1 or type 2? | |
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Diva
Location: SP, Brazil | kwanatha - 2013-07-15 3:25 PM
Sharp - 2013-07-15 5:45 AM I did a lot of research on this 10 years ago while I was in college studying nutrition, so I have seen and personally dealt with this for a long time. As a trainer, the bloodlines that I have personally rode and trained with this problem were: Dash Ta Fame and Cash Not Credit. I also rode A LOT of FWF horses and none of them showed me symptoms, and here in Brazil the number one studs are also Sugar Bar bred, so TO ME, I don't think Sugar Bars is the problem. But that is just my opinion.
were these horses type 1 or type 2?
I don't know. I did not have them tested with muscle biopsies. I did, however, do a blood test with a vet before and after exercise and the levels of CK, AST and LDH were extremely elevated and fit the same characteristics as horses with PSSM or EPSM. And ALL of the horses were fixable with a diet low in starch and high in fat. I did also use Lactnase and Robaxin (methacarbomal) on these horses but was able to wean them off of them in time.
Edited to say - I am training a futurity horse now, for next year, that is out of a DTF mare and she is showing symptoms also, so I modified her diet and she is a different horse - for the better. So even without a muscle biopsy, I feel safe to assume that she has PSSM.
Edited by Sharp 2013-07-15 11:02 AM
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 Accident Prone
Posts: 22277
Location: 100 miles from Nowhere, AR | appycowgirl - 2013-07-14 2:11 PM Barlracrchick, there is several suspects back there as I have suspected Sugar Bars and then I saw the mare Flit who traces to Julie W and I have suspected Julie W as well. I'm still out on whether Colonel Freckles could be a possible suspect or not. I've seen positives with him in there and of course others who have tested out negative as well.
The horse I suspect of being PSSM was by Dr Nick Bar and out of a mare that goes back to Moon Deck 3 times. Man, I wish I could have a do-over with him! | |
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Accident Prone
Posts: 22277
Location: 100 miles from Nowhere, AR | annemarea - 2013-07-14 11:04 AM BARRELHORSE USA - 2013-07-14 4:40 AM Has it ever occurred to you that PSSM is another vet // drug company fad to make a lot of money on a long term basis. No, it hasn't occurred to me, and I'll tell you why. While I believe in what you are saying following this statement, believing this particular statement would be like me saying that I don't believe in science, but I do believe in the Easter Bunny. 
Have you ever heard of Monday Morning Sickness?? It was around way before genetically modified grains. Also, how is it that taking my horses off of grass made all the difference? Kinda doesn't make sense to me. And why are only some horses affected, while others you can load up with grain and never skip a beat?? Nope, sorry....have to disagree. But if that's what you want to believe, then be my guest. Ignorance is bliss.
I had one that was a distinct possiblity for a PSSM diagnosis, and he never got anything except whole oats and hay before I owned him and that's what I fed him while I had him (96-04), with the exception of a brief foray into sweet feed, which didn't last long because he didn't look good or run good while on it. He wasn't on fresh grass, just oats and grass hay with a vit/mineral. This horse didn't have symptoms as severe as the horse I just sold, and had a lot more grit about him, but he stayed sore a lot for no discernable reason. And always bucked warming up. He had to be ridden A LOT during the week to keep him winning. Not just daily, but hard and long every day. If you didn't take the time to work him during the week like he needed, you might as well stay home. I always thought it was a mental thing with him, but now I'm questioning. | |
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"Drank the Kool Aid"
Posts: 5496
Location: Iowa, LA | Three 4 Luck - 2013-07-15 12:35 PM annemarea - 2013-07-14 11:04 AM BARRELHORSE USA - 2013-07-14 4:40 AM Has it ever occurred to you that PSSM is another vet // drug company fad to make a lot of money on a long term basis. No, it hasn't occurred to me, and I'll tell you why. While I believe in what you are saying following this statement, believing this particular statement would be like me saying that I don't believe in science, but I do believe in the Easter Bunny.
Have you ever heard of Monday Morning Sickness?? It was around way before genetically modified grains. Also, how is it that taking my horses off of grass made all the difference? Kinda doesn't make sense to me. And why are only some horses affected, while others you can load up with grain and never skip a beat?? Nope, sorry....have to disagree. But if that's what you want to believe, then be my guest. Ignorance is bliss.
My mare (type 2 positive) does better when worked harder, too. The severity of her symptoms directly correspond to how much/often/hard she is worked. Just ponying her at a walk off of my other horse is better than nothing, but she's even better if rode at a trot and lope. | |
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Regular
Posts: 66
Location: Burns, WY | Sharp - 2013-07-15 10:59 AM
kwanatha - 2013-07-15 3:25 PM
Sharp - 2013-07-15 5:45 AM I did a lot of research on this 10 years ago while I was in college studying nutrition, so I have seen and personally dealt with this for a long time. As a trainer, the bloodlines that I have personally rode and trained with this problem were: Dash Ta Fame and Cash Not Credit. I also rode A LOT of FWF horses and none of them showed me symptoms, and here in Brazil the number one studs are also Sugar Bar bred, so TO ME, I don't think Sugar Bars is the problem. But that is just my opinion.
were these horses type 1 or type 2?
I don't know. I did not have them tested with muscle biopsies. I did, however, do a blood test with a vet before and after exercise and the levels of CK, AST and LDH were extremely elevated and fit the same characteristics as horses with PSSM or EPSM. And ALL of the horses were fixable with a diet low in starch and high in fat. I did also use Lactnase and Robaxin (methacarbomal ) on these horses but was able to wean them off of them in time.
Edited to say - I am training a futurity horse now, for next year, that is out of a DTF mare and she is showing symptoms also, so I modified her diet and she is a different horse - for the better. So even without a muscle biopsy, I feel safe to assume that she has PSSM.
Sharp, I always love it when folks can offer up names of bloodlines of horses that they have experienced problems with. It really helps in trying to possibly pin point those bloodlines.
Like we had a lady on the Forum that had a son of Blackburn that had several tying up issues. Now, when you look at Blackburn, he definitely traces to one of the three studs that we suspect as being the ones to bring PSSM into the QH.
I'm glad to hear that you are in Brazil as it is a country that I'm working on trying to get on board with testing. Back several months ago, I messaged with a gentleman from Brazil and he had a grand daughter of Mr Yella Fella who was having several problems and the he also had a grandson of Dreamfinder, who we suspect to be PSSM n/P1 and he had said that he would test and also talk to many at an Appaloosa show as he knew several horses with the Dreamfinder bloodlines who were having problems. I haven't heard back from him recently to know if he tested or not and what the results were.
I do know that the mare Ms Perky Bug is PSSM positive and she was sold to some folks in Brazil and the gentleman that I messaged with down there, he said that they were selling embryos from her, if I remember correctly, for around $35,000. | |
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Regular
Posts: 66
Location: Burns, WY | Sharp - 2013-07-15 7:45 AM
I did a lot of research on this 10 years ago while I was in college studying nutrition, so I have seen and personally dealt with this for a long time.
As a trainer, the bloodlines that I have personally rode and trained with this problem were: Dash Ta Fame and Cash Not Credit. I also rode A LOT of FWF horses and none of them showed me symptoms, and here in Brazil the number one studs are also Sugar Bar bred, so TO ME, I don't think Sugar Bars is the problem. But that is just my opinion.
Sharp, not sure if you are aware of this but now you don't need to do a blood panel to check for PSSM Type 1. All you have to do is pull a mane or tail sample and send it to Animal Genetics in Florida. Animal Genetics has done genetic disease panel test for folks around the world as they do tests for folks that live in Europe, South Africa, Australia and New Zealand and you just need to submit the export permit with the sample when mailing from outside of the states. Most folks that have sent them from out of country will have their results in 10 days to 2 weeks.
The cost for just the PSSM Type 1 test is $35. | |
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Sock Snob
Posts: 3021
| I have a nice gelding as a young horse i rode him every day had no problem except hougwhen u carried him to a weekend show sat he would ride great and sun he would ride like he was going to lawn dart you he never,would but you always had that feeling and he was hock sore at a young age. Injected his,hocks every year he was more,than likely fusing, fast fwd was doing well my husbands ends up housebound and i work and take care of him. This horse is amazinly talented. the last year i carried him to the world. He was a bronc if you got him close to the arena rode away or in the stall area no problem. i rode him so hard that he had water running everwhere. Was walking in the warm up arena he slammed me i was riding up to the divider and just laid up against the pannels for at least 5 minutes a horse finally walked by i knew them got the to grab his bridle and got him in the arena, he ran but not like he can. I knew something was wrong i had to work the buck out every,day and them this. I have been trying to,figure outmwhat is,wrong with this horse. Everybody kept telling me that you are not showing so,therefore he is not in shape, xxx, and xxx. Thought at first he was bleeding, as i get is hocks done and teeth. But inoticed if youlet him set more that 3 or 4 days you had to d-buck him before you get on. Fast fwd in march i switched feeds went to a carb quars noticed his eyes went softer and he wasnot as fresh, went to a weekend show first week of june and he quit eating so:-)i gave him some tummy meds and when i got home i went to a low starch feed. Had the vet out says he is sore in the rear just got him injected hocks stifiles let him off that week we had rain on off the next week did notmride either and was busy last week could ride,sat saddled up,last night lunged himto,see if hemhad any buck, none. He had an absess and wa lame not too bed rode long enough to know he wasnot going to buck. But what has changed is his eyes have gotten soft and his personality is loveable, total differnt horse. So i am assuming we fixed the problem, is he is a nice horse i just didnot want to,give up. I m ssuming when i show next week we will have a different horse and i will always show him on preivcox so we dont have pain, really need to do the testing and talk to my vet. But i m happy that we have amgood chenge. He is a very nice horse and eye candy also. Willmore than li,ely get him bot sheet think it,will help the inflammation. | |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 827
Location: KS | I have several questions.
1. Is AQHA going to make it a requirement that the results of the 5 panel testing be open to the general public? Especially on breeding stallions? In other words will I be able to go on the AQHA website and look up a certain stallion's registration information and find the results once the stallion has been tested?
2. Does anyone have information I can read or experiences to offer regarding feeding a joint supplement to PSSM horses? I know Beth Valentine claims in passing that joint supplements do not pose an issue but I do not personally feel her recommendations on feeding a PSSM horse are as helpful or researched as Dr. Valberg's...so looking for information from a source other than her.
3. Ms Wahini Bug, DTF and Dr Nick Bar have been mentioned as possibly PSSM positive. I'm curious about all of the prominent barrel horse bloodlines: DTF, FG, Streakin Six, Martha Six Moons, etc. Surely there is someone out there that KNOWS if any of these lines tend to pass it down. It's hard for me to believe that these popular stallions haven't been tested. Ms Wahini Bug being positive was a bombshell to me. Everything she's produced has won and Famous Bugs stands at stud and hr away. I will say as picky as the Brazilians seems to be as far as exportation requirements...seems like they wouldn't allow any known hereditary diseases to be imported...
I would be interested in hearing about any running bloodlines as well...Corona Cartel, Tres Seis, etc.
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