|
|
Expert
Posts: 1403
 
| Gutteral pouch infections can cause neurologic symptoms.... is this a for sure case of EPM ? |
|
| |
|
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 413
| NO. It is not confirmed EPM.
I was just going to treat.
The guttural pouch infection should be cleared up, it was NOT fungal. And we had it cultured, not strangles.
But how long until his signs improve? I've heard it is like our inner ear, the infection messes with his equilibrium? |
|
| |
|
 BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25352
 
Location: Bastrop, Texas | Thanks, but honestly, the pleasure's all mine. This may sound a little funny or odd, but this reminds me of when I had my transplant patients. Living-related transplanted kidneys are taken from the donor in the room next door. They are flushed with cold solution and heparin so none of the blood clots inside them, and then I would bring the kidney to the next room and transplant it into the recipient. Because they are taken from the healthy donor, cooled down, and then re-warmed once the blood vessels are connected, they start to work right away, sometimes peeing up a storm. The creatinines would drop like a rock, from say a 7.5 down to a 2.5 the next day and 1.0 the following day. In fact, sometimes they would pee so much that they would overshoot and become dehydrated in their "vascular space" so the nurses would be running for bags of IV fluid just to keep up. With cadaver kidneys, it's a different story. Most of them had at least some degree of acute renal failure, but it wasn't as bad as it sounds. A better term was "delayed function" and it was a result of the kidneys sitting on ice, in saline solution for as much as 72 hours. The longer they sat, the worse the delayed function. We would transplant them and often times the kidney would make very little, if any urine for a variable length of time. Sometimes it would be almost a week, but then all of a sudden you would see the urine output go from 50cc/8 hours to 150cc the next 8 hours, to 350 cc the next.....and then whoosh! Katie bar the door! They would pour out urine, up to a liter an hour! They might even need 1-2 dialysis treatments until the kidney woke up.
If you didn't know any better you would think the kidney is dead....but it's not. Many of the patients I transplanted over 20 years ago are still running around with normal kidney function. And to think I actually got paid to have so much fun!
Now all I do is sit here and wait for word about Rayban! Hopefully it will be good news. |
|
| |
|
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 413
| Wow! Sounds like it was quite an experience, a good one at that to have such a success.
That, I guess.. Confuses me? About him. He never quit urinating. So I would of "assumed"'his blood levels would return quicker than the no change?
But this is my first and hopefully last (haha!) kidney experience.
He seems so happy. So content.
Just keeping swimming! And praying :) |
|
| |
|
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 413
| Rayban |
|
| |
|
Expert
Posts: 1403
| Thecowgirlinme - 2013-10-09 2:28 PM
NO. It is not confirmed EPM.
I was just going to treat.
The guttural pouch infection should be cleared up, it was NOT fungal. And we had it cultured, not strangles.
But how long until his signs improve? I've heard it is like our inner ear, the infection messes with his equilibrium?
the pressure of the infection can also press on the nerves running through the skull, causing neuro symptoms... how long befoe the infection was diagnosed was he showing neuro symptoms..?
|
|
| |
|
BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25352
Location: Bastrop, Texas | Thecowgirlinme - 2013-10-09 1:52 PM Wow! Sounds like it was quite an experience, a good one at that to have such a success. That, I guess.. Confuses me? About him. He never quit urinating. So I would of "assumed"'his blood levels would return quicker than the no change? But this is my first and hopefully last (haha!) kidney experience. He seems so happy. So content. Just keeping swimming! And praying :)
He probably had what is called "non-oliguric acute renal failure", which means his kidneys kept making urine, but it wasn't "good quality" urine that removed the waste and toxins...basically salt water without the toxins. This kind of renal failure usually has a better prognosis. In humans, people with polycystic kidney disease have this kind of renal failure, where they make normal volumes of urine...just without the toxins that need to be removed. Those patients can make normal amounts of urine, yet still need chronic dialysis, until they are transplanted. They are actually easier to manage, because you don't have to worry so much about volume overload.
Rayban (cool name) probably has that kind of renal failure. Right now, his kidneys are fragile so stay away from medicines like bute and banamine. Just grass, fresh water, and free choice salt. |
|
| |
|
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 413
| Ok! Cool!
Thanks for that info!
And yes, he is not getting anything like that!
Grass, grass hay, ADM senior glo feed, and all the water he can drink! |
|
| |
|
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 413
| I would say... I noticed he had scuffs on his knees 4 days before I took him to the vet. Didn't know exactly the cause, now I assume he had fallen. From when I saw him with poor balance, the same day I took him in. I noticed a very SLIGHT head tilt for a week tops. |
|
| |
|
Expert
Posts: 1403
| Thecowgirlinme - 2013-10-09 3:38 PM
I would say... I noticed he had scuffs on his knees 4 days before I took him to the vet. Didn't know exactly the cause, now I assume he had fallen. From when I saw him with poor balance, the same day I took him in. I noticed a very SLIGHT head tilt for a week tops.
I would not jump on the EPM train yet.... Gutteral pouch issues casue neuro symptoms... let that clear up and see if he is better...actual EPM (dare I say it,....) is actually quite rare...in the sheer numbers of Neuro issues...
had you been seeing issues long before... then maybe I would move on it... |
|
| |
|
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 413
| Well they say also, the toxins in the blood- could cause neuro symptoms. Toxins are higher, because of kidney failure.
Scott- what's your take on-- if he pulls though- living a good life? I know a lot of management will have to be in place, as far as diet and drugs administered. I had hopes to him being a rather high performing barrel horse someday. Is this achievable? |
|
| |
|
BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25352
Location: Bastrop, Texas | Thecowgirlinme - 2013-10-09 4:57 PM Well they say also, the toxins in the blood- could cause neuro symptoms. Toxins are higher, because of kidney failure. Scott- what's your take on-- if he pulls though- living a good life? I know a lot of management will have to be in place, as far as diet and drugs administered. I had hopes to him being a rather high performing barrel horse someday. Is this achievable?
If he recovers, I don't see why not. If he has significant impairment of kidney function, then I can't really say. Maybe a vet would give a better answer. My one concern would be if he has significant impairment and that could lead to metabolic bone disease....kinda like ricketts. You'll just have to play it by ear, most likely. |
|
| |
|
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 413
| I've had one vet tell me he could live, happily, healthy & high performing with half a kidney functioning.
I've had one say, he will not be viable as performance horse. Just a "pet."
Lol, how can I get so many different answers? :) makes my head spin! |
|
| |
|
BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25352
Location: Bastrop, Texas | Thecowgirlinme - 2013-10-09 5:04 PM
I've had one vet tell me he could live, happily, healthy & high performing with half a kidney functioning.
I've had one say, he will not be viable as performance horse. Just a "pet."
Lol, how can I get so many different answers? :) makes my head spin!
You have to lose over 50% of your kidney mass in order to see any significant impairment in kidney function at all. People who donate a kidney usually go on and have normal function for the rest of their lives. You have to lose probably 75% of your kidney function in order to have it effect your life significantly. I'd say there's a good chance he could be a competitive horse with significant kidney damage, but keep in mind, if this is simply acute renal failure, like I was saying, the natural history is they recover their function for the most part.
The liver is even more impressive. You can lose 85% of your liver and survive. The ability of the liver to regenerate is absolutely incredible. No organ in the human body can regenerate like the liver. If I transplant a kidney from a newborn baby who has been a donor, that kidney might be only 2 inches long with teeny vessels and ureter. That little tiny kidney from a newborn can keep you alive, and if you do an ultrasound a year later it will have grown to adult size! I've done this. Sometimes we transplant two little kidneys from a baby donor into one recipient, and they look like a couple of grapes. A year later they are adult size. God is an amazing planner! |
|
| |
|
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 413
| WOW' that is so COOL!! No wonder you enjoy it so much! How neat.
I guess only time will tell :) |
|
| |
|
 Stinky Cat Owner
Posts: 4097
Location: Oregon | Just wondering how your boy is today. |
|
| |
|
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 413
| Sorry it has been a circus here! We farm and between trying to cut beans, the horse shoer being here and taking care of Rayban, it's a bit overwhelming at time!
They came out this morning, checked him over. They drained 3.5 gallon of fluid out of his abdomen! He looks more comfortable now.
They pulled blood and ran it. They just called 10 minutes ago.
HIS CREATINE AND BUN HAVE COME DOWN SIGNIFICANTLY!!!!! I haven't saw the blood work myself yet, but the Vets were VERY PLEASED!
Yay!! Tears of joy! A long ways to go but at least we are seeing improvement!
THANK YOU FOR ALL OF YOUR PRAYERS, concern, suggestions, thoughts and encouragement! |
|
| |
|
Stinky Cat Owner
Posts: 4097
Location: Oregon | Thecowgirlinme - 2013-10-10 3:02 PM
Sorry it has been a circus here! We farm and between trying to cut beans, the horse shoer being here and taking care of Rayban, it's a bit overwhelming at time!
They came out this morning, checked him over. They drained 3.5 gallon of fluid out of his abdomen! He looks more comfortable now.
They pulled blood and ran it. They just called 10 minutes ago.
HIS CREATINE AND BUN HAVE COME DOWN SIGNIFICANTLY!!!!! I haven't saw the blood work myself yet, but the Vets were VERY PLEASED!
Yay!! Tears of joy! A long ways to go but at least we are seeing improvement!
THANK YOU FOR ALL OF YOUR PRAYERS, concern, suggestions, thoughts and encouragement!
  |
|
| |
|
 Expert
Posts: 1218
Location: Great NW | Continuing prayers. |
|
| |
|
BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25352
Location: Bastrop, Texas | That's GREAT news! That's a tough gelding you have there. He deserves to live.....no doubt he has heart! |
|
| |
Folks on-line