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  Semper Fi
    
Location: North Texas | TXBO - 2014-04-13 7:36 PM
foundation horse - 2014-04-13 7:08 PM TXBO - 2014-04-13 6:52 PM Just a personal opinion..... If you give a dislike without a retort, you're either chickenshiitt or too freaking stupid to participate in an adult discussion.
LMAO! Now this I can also agree with and understand. And No, I am not a Rancher. But here is what I do understand that any kind of 'leased land' is a monetary black hole. I don't care how money can be made off it! The economics say if One does not own said Land, then the same One does not control said land. Now, onto the Bundy Deal again. TxBo per the Breibart Article the Land in question was deeded to Nevada in 1848. Then why are The Feds even involved in this squabble? That is the $64 Million Dollar right there!
Sorry, I just reread the article for clarification. The court reiterated its position that “the public lands of Nevada are the property of the United States because the United States has held title to those public lands since 1848, when Mexico ceded the land to the United States.”
Now I am attempting to ascertain which Court declared this.............. | |
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 Googly Goo
Posts: 7053
| musikmaker - 2014-04-13 7:37 PM Everyone here is forgetting that Bundy tried to pay the lease...they refused as the 'tortoise' was more important at that time...also, the fees were to go towards improving the land and was instead used to shut down ranching.
It's a happening thing out here...we've been up against these goons for many years & are finally getting sick of it. Again...the fed does NOT 'own' this land.
More misinformation. Bundy decided to stop making his lease payment and therefore lost his right. | |
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Googly Goo
Posts: 7053
| musikmaker - 2014-04-13 7:32 PM FinneyQuarterHorses - 2014-04-13 5:10 PM musikmaker - 2014-04-13 5:34 PM Three 4 Luck - 2014-04-13 4:19 PM Finney, you've always gotten on my nerves, but IMO you shouldn't have felt like you had to defend your personal life that way. I'm sorry you felt like you needed to do that.
That said, this particular case has opened up some dialogue that needed to take place and brought to light some cases that are much more cut and dried where you cannot argue justice is being served. I wonder how different things would be if the ranchers had had a way to communicate like we do now, where they could have more easily banded together to say NO at the beginning of all this BLM mess and negotiated better terms for themselves. Better yet, how about if none of these agencies with no accountability had been prevented from being created in the first place. I am sick to death of being regulated to infinity and beyond by people I can't vote out. That's not how our government was supposed to work. This is exactly how I feel about this.
And Finney...the ignorance I refer to is in the experience of dealing with the BLM. You recommended ranchers 'buying land & paying the taxes' like everyone else does...have you ever been 'out west'? Do you have any idea how many acres are required per cow? Do you think livestock & wildlife should be banned?
It's the ignorance of those who have no clue to what it takes to survive out here, yet, think they should have an opinion...one that is not educated...that is creating hardship for those who are fighting this battle. Get educated to ALL the facts...better yet, just watch and learn.
Here's what I know. It takes at least 20 acres to run a cow in Nebraska w/ supplemental feed. Land prices have increased to $1000-$1500 per grass acre. A 250 cow place would require at least 5000 acres of range land costing up to $7.5 million dollars. There is next to no federal and state grazing land in this state and what there is (besides school land ) never, I repeat never, comes up for lease. Most real estate people will tell you that if you pay more than $10,000/cow, or $2,500,000, you can't make it pay. That is a $5 million dollar difference in making it and not. "Out West", you can own 150 acres costing (@ $1500/ac ) $225,000, pay a grazing permit for a thousand head of cattle (AUM ) costing $1350, have the same 250 head as the Nebraska (and many other states ) and laugh all the way to the bank. Then, it must be written in the contract somewhere, complain ad nauseum about the indignities you suffer. If you don't like living "out west", move to somewhere that takes less grass per cow. It's not a hard concept, many people have done it, bought land and paid taxes. It's gotten so fashionable for ranchers to complain about the goverment interferring in their lives, they forget about the times they complain about the governement not helping them enough (SD Blizzard ). When people sign a BLM or State lease anywhere, they are read each page individually so there is no misunderstandings about their obligations as well as the government's. Sometimes people have been someplace for so long, it feels just like it IS theirs, just like my Dad's story, but it isn't, and if they forget that, sometimes bad things happen.
And believe me...the only thing I don't like about the new-west are the new-comers...lol. Oh yeah...and the people who think they know better than us how to run it. I know of some leases for sale...beware they come with environmentalists, archeologists, recreationalists...cow haters. The water tanks have been targeted lately along with cows...poisoned cows, too. But hey...sounds like a couple of you could buddy right up to the perps.
Tell ya what...just sit back and watch. The sheriff in Clark County just proved to the world that the jurisdiction falls in his hands. Deal with it.
You're probably not in a position to call others ignorant then. | |
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Semper Fi
Location: North Texas | I just reread the article (again) and found no specific reference(s) to which Courts of Law these motions were a product of. | |
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 Proud to be Deplorable
Posts: 1929
| rodeomom3 - 2014-04-13 7:10 PM
FinneyQuarterHorses - 2014-04-13 6:10 PM
musikmaker - 2014-04-13 5:34 PM
Three 4 Luck - 2014-04-13 4:19 PM Finney, you've always gotten on my nerves, but IMO you shouldn't have felt like you had to defend your personal life that way. I'm sorry you felt like you needed to do that.
That said, this particular case has opened up some dialogue that needed to take place and brought to light some cases that are much more cut and dried where you cannot argue justice is being served. I wonder how different things would be if the ranchers had had a way to communicate like we do now, where they could have more easily banded together to say NO at the beginning of all this BLM mess and negotiated better terms for themselves. Better yet, how about if none of these agencies with no accountability had been prevented from being created in the first place. I am sick to death of being regulated to infinity and beyond by people I can't vote out. That's not how our government was supposed to work.
This is exactly how I feel about this.
And Finney...the ignorance I refer to is in the experience of dealing with the BLM. You recommended ranchers 'buying land & paying the taxes' like everyone else does...have you ever been 'out west'? Do you have any idea how many acres are required per cow? Do you think livestock & wildlife should be banned?
It's the ignorance of those who have no clue to what it takes to survive out here, yet, think they should have an opinion...one that is not educated...that is creating hardship for those who are fighting this battle. Get educated to ALL the facts...better yet, just watch and learn.
Here's what I know. It takes at least 20 acres to run a cow in Nebraska w/ supplemental feed. Land prices have increased to $1000-$1500 per grass acre. A 250 cow place would require at least 5000 acres of range land costing up to $7.5 million dollars. There is next to no federal and state grazing land in this state and what there is (besides school land ) never, I repeat never, comes up for lease. Most real estate people will tell you that if you pay more than $10,000/cow, or $2,500,000, you can't make it pay. That is a $5 million dollar difference in making it and not.
"Out West", you can own 150 acres costing (@ $1500/ac ) $225,000, pay a grazing permit for a thousand head of cattle (AUM ) costing $1350, have the same 250 head as the Nebraska (and many other states ) and laugh all the way to the bank. Then, it must be written in the contract somewhere, complain ad nauseum about the indignities you suffer.
If you don't like living "out west", move to somewhere that takes less grass per cow. It's not a hard concept, many people have done it, bought land and paid taxes. It's gotten so fashionable for ranchers to complain about the goverment interferring in their lives, they forget about the times they complain about the governement not helping them enough (SD Blizzard ).
When people sign a BLM or State lease anywhere, they are read each page individually so there is no misunderstandings about their obligations as well as the government's. Sometimes people have been someplace for so long, it feels just like it IS theirs, just like my Dad's story, but it isn't, and if they forget that, sometimes bad things happen.
From a contractual perspective, Bundy agreed to the BLM terms and demonstrated so by the years he did pay his grazing rights. Even if unhappy, I don't know how he can say sorry changed my mind but I am going to keep using your land. I agree about the over regulation by agencies who have total power and no oversight but they are regulating land they own. If preemptive rights give him the rights to the land why did he pay the BLM to begin with?
He did not change his mind The BLM changed the lease. That's when this 21 year mess started. He has never claimed he owns the land only the lease which his father and his grandfather owned and transferred to him. Since the lease predates the BLM by about 60 years he feels he has preemptive rights to the lease. Some where along the way BLM revoked the lease and transferred the lease to the county without his signature. To me Bundy needed a much better attorney. | |
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Googly Goo
Posts: 7053
| musikmaker - 2014-04-13 7:41 PM TXBO - 2014-04-13 6:36 PM foundation horse - 2014-04-13 7:08 PM TXBO - 2014-04-13 6:52 PM Just a personal opinion..... If you give a dislike without a retort, you're either chickenshiitt or too freaking stupid to participate in an adult discussion.
LMAO! Now this I can also agree with and understand. And No, I am not a Rancher. But here is what I do understand that any kind of 'leased land' is a monetary black hole. I don't care how money can be made off it! The economics say if One does not own said Land, then the same One does not control said land. Now, onto the Bundy Deal again. TxBo per the Breibart Article the Land in question was deeded to Nevada in 1848. Then why are The Feds even involved in this squabble? That is the $64 Million Dollar right there!
And the fed has absolutely NO constitutional leeway to own vast tracts of land for no 'national' purpose. (the General Welfare does not apply).
You seriously need to open your heart & head to what our forefathers intended.
It was part of the Treaty of Hidalgo Guadelupe purchase of $15 million to end the Mexican War.
The fed does have a right to own land and it would be very easy to argue that there is a natl security reason to own the land. Given the courts interpretation of the commerce clause, there's absolutely no pragmatism to your ideological argument. | |
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 Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | What would John Wayne do? And...who is John Galt?  | |
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Googly Goo
Posts: 7053
| musikmaker - 2014-04-13 7:42 PM TXBO - 2014-04-13 6:39 PM rodeomom3 - 2014-04-13 7:10 PM FinneyQuarterHorses - 2014-04-13 6:10 PM musikmaker - 2014-04-13 5:34 PM Three 4 Luck - 2014-04-13 4:19 PM Finney, you've always gotten on my nerves, but IMO you shouldn't have felt like you had to defend your personal life that way. I'm sorry you felt like you needed to do that.
That said, this particular case has opened up some dialogue that needed to take place and brought to light some cases that are much more cut and dried where you cannot argue justice is being served. I wonder how different things would be if the ranchers had had a way to communicate like we do now, where they could have more easily banded together to say NO at the beginning of all this BLM mess and negotiated better terms for themselves. Better yet, how about if none of these agencies with no accountability had been prevented from being created in the first place. I am sick to death of being regulated to infinity and beyond by people I can't vote out. That's not how our government was supposed to work. This is exactly how I feel about this.
And Finney...the ignorance I refer to is in the experience of dealing with the BLM. You recommended ranchers 'buying land & paying the taxes' like everyone else does...have you ever been 'out west'? Do you have any idea how many acres are required per cow? Do you think livestock & wildlife should be banned?
It's the ignorance of those who have no clue to what it takes to survive out here, yet, think they should have an opinion...one that is not educated...that is creating hardship for those who are fighting this battle. Get educated to ALL the facts...better yet, just watch and learn.
Here's what I know. It takes at least 20 acres to run a cow in Nebraska w/ supplemental feed. Land prices have increased to $1000-$1500 per grass acre. A 250 cow place would require at least 5000 acres of range land costing up to $7.5 million dollars. There is next to no federal and state grazing land in this state and what there is (besides school land ) never, I repeat never, comes up for lease. Most real estate people will tell you that if you pay more than $10,000/cow, or $2,500,000, you can't make it pay. That is a $5 million dollar difference in making it and not. "Out West", you can own 150 acres costing (@ $1500/ac ) $225,000, pay a grazing permit for a thousand head of cattle (AUM ) costing $1350, have the same 250 head as the Nebraska (and many other states ) and laugh all the way to the bank. Then, it must be written in the contract somewhere, complain ad nauseum about the indignities you suffer. If you don't like living "out west", move to somewhere that takes less grass per cow. It's not a hard concept, many people have done it, bought land and paid taxes. It's gotten so fashionable for ranchers to complain about the goverment interferring in their lives, they forget about the times they complain about the governement not helping them enough (SD Blizzard ). When people sign a BLM or State lease anywhere, they are read each page individually so there is no misunderstandings about their obligations as well as the government's. Sometimes people have been someplace for so long, it feels just like it IS theirs, just like my Dad's story, but it isn't, and if they forget that, sometimes bad things happen. From a contractual perspective, Bundy agreed to the BLM terms and demonstrated so by the years he did pay his grazing rights. Even if unhappy, I don't know how he can say sorry changed my mind but I am going to keep using your land. I agree about the over regulation by agencies who have total power and no oversight but they are regulating land they own. If preemptive rights give him the rights to the land why did he pay the BLM to begin with?
He doesn't have an inalienable right to graze land that he doesn't own.
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Googly Goo
Posts: 7053
| musikmaker - 2014-04-13 8:03 PM What would John Wayne do? And...who is John Galt?
John Wayne would have owned the land and John Galt was a fictitious character. | |
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 BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25352
Location: Bastrop, Texas | I must admit that I haven't been following this story very closely at all, for some reason. In fact, I haven't read most of this thread. I could see two sides of this right from the start.
As far as "likes" and "dislikes" on comments, I couldn't care less. I think they are a little silly even though I hit like or dislike often. I just don't get bent out of shape over them. In a way, I suppose they are a good way for people to express approval or disapproval without having to own their words. Maybe they are shy. Maybe they are afraid. Who knows? I don't care.
Honestly, Finney, I find it hard to get too excited about anything you post. You have a history of posting liberal-progressive talking points or incendiary cut-and-paste articles that trumpet progressivism, and then disappearing. It's hard to take you seriously when I have never ever seen you criticise, even remotely, any progressive-liberal, nor can I recall you ever esposing a position outside of the progressive liberal agenda.
As far as this topic is concerned, the one thing that it has done for me is it has served to remind me, once again, that this country is more sharply divided than at anytime that I can remember. The division is deep and getting wider and deeper almost by the day. More and more, I think people want to revolt. They are sick of a bloated, ever expanding, intrusive, meddlesome government that cannot sustain itself and is constantly seeking ways to usurp freedom, liberty, power, and money from the citizens. Regardess of whether Mr Bundy is right or wrong, that's all this really means to me. In fact, I think it's not merely a symptom....I think it is a harbinger of things to come. | |
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 Expert
Posts: 4121
Location: SE Louisiana | TXBO - 2014-04-13 8:15 PM
musikmaker - 2014-04-13 8:03 PM What would John Wayne do? And...who is John Galt?
So was John W... If you want a real American hero... look at James Stewart.. | |
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Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | Here ya go....someone who isn't ignorant of ranch life in the west, 2014:
Why Clive Bundy isn't WRONG.
There have been a lot of people criticizing Clive Bundy because he did not pay his grazing fees for 20 years. The public is also probably wondering why so many other cowboys are supporting Mr. Bundy even though they paid their fees and Clive did not. What you people probably do not realize is that on every rancher's grazing permit it says the following: "You are authorized to make grazing use of the lands, under the jurisdiction of the Bureau of Land Management and covered by this grazing permit, upon your acceptance of the terms and conditions of this grazing permit and payment of grazing fees when due." The "mandatory" terms and conditions go on to list the allotment, the number and kind of livestock to be grazed, when the permit begins and ends, the number of active or suspended AUMs (animal units per month), etc. The terms and conditions also list specific requirements such as where salt or mineral supplements can be located, maximum allowable use of forage levels (40% of annual growth), etc., and include a lot more stringent policies that must be adhered to. Every rancher must sign this "contract" agreeing to abide by the TERMS AND CONDITIONS before he or she can make payment. In the early 90s, the BLM went on a frenzy and drastically cut almost every rancher's permit because of this desert tortoise issue, even though all of us ranchers knew that cow and desert tortoise had co-existed for a hundred+ years. As an example, a family friend had his permit cut by 90%. For those of you who are non ranchers, that would be equated to getting your paycheck cut 90%. In 1976 there were approximately 52 ranching permittees in this area of Nevada. Presently, there are 3. Most of these people lost their livelihoods because of the actions of the BLM. Clive Bundy was one of these people who received extremely unfair and unreasonable TERMS AND CONDITIONS. Keep in mind that Mr. Bundy was required to sign this contract before he was allowed to pay. Had Clive signed on the dotted line, he would have, in essence, signed his very livelihood away. And so Mr. Bundy took a stand, not only for himself, but for all of us. He refused to be destroyed by a tyrannical federal entity and to have his American liberties and freedoms taken away. Also keep in mind that all ranchers financially paid dearly for the forage rights those permits allow - - not rights to the land, but rights to use the forage that grows on that land. Many of these AUMS are water based, meaning that the rancher also has a vested right (state owned, not federal) to the waters that adjoin the lands and allow the livestock to drink. These water rights were also purchased at a great price. If a rancher cannot show beneficial use of the water (he must have the appropriate number of livestock that drinks and uses that water), then he loses that water right. Usually water rights and forage rights go hand in hand. Contrary to what the BLM is telling you, they NEVER compensate a rancher for the AUMs they take away. Most times, they tell ranchers that their AUMS are "suspended," but not removed. Unfortunately, my family has thousands of "suspended" AUMs that will probably never be returned. And so, even though these ranchers throughout the course of a hundred years invested thousands(and perhaps millions) of dollars and sacrificed along the way to obtain these rights through purchase from others, at a whim the government can take everything away with the stroke of a pen. This is the very thing that Clive Bundy single-handedly took a stand against. Thank you, Clive, from a rancher who considers you a hero.
-Kena Lytle Gloeckner
Btw: Did all of you 'landlords' inherit this by birth? Do you have a vested interest in it?
The fed does NOT own this land. It's in a 'reserved' status...
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Expert
Posts: 4121
Location: SE Louisiana | TXBO - 2014-04-13 8:06 PM
musikmaker - 2014-04-13 7:42 PM TXBO - 2014-04-13 6:39 PM rodeomom3 - 2014-04-13 7:10 PM FinneyQuarterHorses - 2014-04-13 6:10 PM musikmaker - 2014-04-13 5:34 PM Three 4 Luck - 2014-04-13 4:19 PM Finney, you've always gotten on my nerves, but IMO you shouldn't have felt like you had to defend your personal life that way. I'm sorry you felt like you needed to do that.
That said, this particular case has opened up some dialogue that needed to take place and brought to light some cases that are much more cut and dried where you cannot argue justice is being served. I wonder how different things would be if the ranchers had had a way to communicate like we do now, where they could have more easily banded together to say NO at the beginning of all this BLM mess and negotiated better terms for themselves. Better yet, how about if none of these agencies with no accountability had been prevented from being created in the first place. I am sick to death of being regulated to infinity and beyond by people I can't vote out. That's not how our government was supposed to work. This is exactly how I feel about this.
And Finney...the ignorance I refer to is in the experience of dealing with the BLM. You recommended ranchers 'buying land & paying the taxes' like everyone else does...have you ever been 'out west'? Do you have any idea how many acres are required per cow? Do you think livestock & wildlife should be banned?
It's the ignorance of those who have no clue to what it takes to survive out here, yet, think they should have an opinion...one that is not educated...that is creating hardship for those who are fighting this battle. Get educated to ALL the facts...better yet, just watch and learn.
Here's what I know. It takes at least 20 acres to run a cow in Nebraska w/ supplemental feed. Land prices have increased to $1000-$1500 per grass acre. A 250 cow place would require at least 5000 acres of range land costing up to $7.5 million dollars. There is next to no federal and state grazing land in this state and what there is (besides school land ) never, I repeat never, comes up for lease. Most real estate people will tell you that if you pay more than $10,000/cow, or $2,500,000, you can't make it pay. That is a $5 million dollar difference in making it and not. "Out West", you can own 150 acres costing (@ $1500/ac ) $225,000, pay a grazing permit for a thousand head of cattle (AUM ) costing $1350, have the same 250 head as the Nebraska (and many other states ) and laugh all the way to the bank. Then, it must be written in the contract somewhere, complain ad nauseum about the indignities you suffer. If you don't like living "out west", move to somewhere that takes less grass per cow. It's not a hard concept, many people have done it, bought land and paid taxes. It's gotten so fashionable for ranchers to complain about the goverment interferring in their lives, they forget about the times they complain about the governement not helping them enough (SD Blizzard ). When people sign a BLM or State lease anywhere, they are read each page individually so there is no misunderstandings about their obligations as well as the government's. Sometimes people have been someplace for so long, it feels just like it IS theirs, just like my Dad's story, but it isn't, and if they forget that, sometimes bad things happen. From a contractual perspective, Bundy agreed to the BLM terms and demonstrated so by the years he did pay his grazing rights. Even if unhappy, I don't know how he can say sorry changed my mind but I am going to keep using your land. I agree about the over regulation by agencies who have total power and no oversight but they are regulating land they own. If preemptive rights give him the rights to the land why did he pay the BLM to begin with?
It's public land and he is part of the public!!!! | |
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 Accident Prone
Posts: 22277
Location: 100 miles from Nowhere, AR | TXBO - 2014-04-13 6:52 PM Just a personal opinion..... If you give a dislike without a retort, you're either chickenshiitt or too freaking stupid to participate in an adult discussion.
Take that.  | |
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Googly Goo
Posts: 7053
| komet. - 2014-04-13 8:24 PM TXBO - 2014-04-13 8:15 PM musikmaker - 2014-04-13 8:03 PM What would John Wayne do? And...who is John Galt? So was John W... If you want a real American hero... look at James Stewart..
Dude, John Wayne was real. | |
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 Always Off Topic
Posts: 6382
Location: ND | the govt is abusive and out of control but just because everyone is looking for an anti-govt hero, doesn't make Cliven Bundy the martyr you are looking for......in fact, this example is likely going to be used by many in our govt as an example of why the ag industry is getting fat off subsidies.....and unfortunately, many are going to be conviced by this... | |
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Expert
Posts: 4121
Location: SE Louisiana | It used to be.... we hanged people that rustled cows... and the people that gave the orders to rustle cows... I think it's time to go back to that... | |
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Expert
Posts: 4121
Location: SE Louisiana | TXBO - 2014-04-13 8:35 PM
komet. - 2014-04-13 8:24 PM TXBO - 2014-04-13 8:15 PM musikmaker - 2014-04-13 8:03 PM What would John Wayne do? And...who is John Galt? So was John W... If you want a real American hero... look at James Stewart..
John W was an actor... James served his country... | |
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Always Off Topic
Posts: 6382
Location: ND | komet. - 2014-04-13 8:38 PM TXBO - 2014-04-13 8:35 PM komet. - 2014-04-13 8:24 PM TXBO - 2014-04-13 8:15 PM musikmaker - 2014-04-13 8:03 PM What would John Wayne do? And...who is John Galt? So was John W... If you want a real American hero... look at James Stewart.. John W was an actor... James served his country...
John Wayne was a persona.... | |
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Expert
Posts: 4121
Location: SE Louisiana | dhdqhllc - 2014-04-13 8:39 PM
komet. - 2014-04-13 8:38 PM TXBO - 2014-04-13 8:35 PM komet. - 2014-04-13 8:24 PM TXBO - 2014-04-13 8:15 PM musikmaker - 2014-04-13 8:03 PM What would John Wayne do? And...who is John Galt? So was John W... If you want a real American hero... look at James Stewart.. John W was an actor... James served his country...
So is Obozo to some people.. | |
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Folks on-line