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  Champ
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Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm | oija - 2015-02-20 5:57 AM I'm curious about the comments on Ivory James. I've always been a particular fan. I'll also say I think the size of a bone has less to do with the sturdiness of a horse. I think they've posted numerous studies on here that bone density has more to do with exercise, feeding program, and regular sprinting than just with visible size. We have a gelding that to look at him anyone and everyone would drool because of the sturdy look of his feet and legs. But he is terribly clumsy and hurts himself constantly. He is now out of commission at 8 for the rest of his life. Bone size does not always equate to longevity. This ^^^
When I was in my 20's I bought a filly from a friend to run and then start on barrels. She was a pretty feminine little thing. I was worried about her holding up. But she started 21 times on the track. Ran AAA multiple times won three races and placed in the majority of her starts. Then I started her on barrels during the winter of her 3-4 year old year. She ran all the barrel futurities in my region as a 5 year old and most of the derbies as a 6. Then I started running her in rodeos. She won a lot. Finally as a 13 year old I hurt my back and she pulled her check ligament and it seemed like a good time to retire us both. I raised 4 babies out of her. 2 I still have. The other 2 I sold and they are still running in their late teens. Bone size has less to do with soundness than correct structure of the leg and good nuturition/exercise. Exercise is what makes bone gain density. Density + correct conformation is what makes a sound horse.
I just bought a filly to breed. She's not heavy boned but she is sound. She's had 17 starts from 2 to 4. Her last start was on January 25th. She ran 4th. She's won 2, 2 seconds and 3 thirds and won 23k.
Just something I've observed from breeding horses over the years. A male horse is born with more bone than a female of the same cross. A horse gets more bone as they age especially if they have been used most of their life. Excercise and bone density actually increase the size of the bone. 
Edited by OregonBR 2015-02-20 11:28 AM
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 Jr. Detective
 
Location: Beggs, OK | LRQHS - 2015-02-20 11:22 AM oija - 2015-02-20 11:20 AM Smashedonpepper - 2015-02-20 10:09 AM I LOVE Pappasito but i've also taken a shine to Furrtreeous, Louisiana Senator, and Brace for Bernal!
Fur
LS
Brace
 I think Louisiana Senator is one of the best looking studs out there.  Who wouldn't be in love? The bottom picture is Jess Louisiana Blue.
Thank you for clarifying, because I got confused, lol. |
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 Queen Boobie 2
Posts: 7521
| rachellyn80 - 2015-02-20 9:58 AM
Whiteboy - 2015-02-20 8:51 AM oija - 2015-02-20 7:57 AM I'm curious about the comments on Ivory James. I've always been a particular fan. I'll also say I think the size of a bone has less to do with the sturdiness of a horse. I think they've posted numerous studies on here that bone density has more to do with exercise, feeding program, and regular sprinting than just with visible size. We have a gelding that to look at him anyone and everyone would drool because of the sturdy look of his feet and legs. But he is terribly clumsy and hurts himself constantly. He is now out of commission at 8 for the rest of his life. Bone size does not always equate to longevity. That may be true but from the same program (meaning same feed, exercise program, ect ) and all else being equal would you take the fine boned horse or the heavy boned horse? Which one is going to hold up to more work longer. There is a reason the ranch horses that have to work very hard are usually built the same way. But you might be able to get away with a fine boned horse if you are only casually running barrels or just looking at the pretty horse in the pasture. I rope and ride a ton, and I must have horses that hold up to rough country and lots of miles.
There's a huge difference in "holding up" and being forced to work through pain. Bone size has no more to do with performance longevity than muscle mass does. The most crippled horses I've ever ridden were the big boned "cool looking" heading horses that everyone loves.
My boy friend day works and it takes an extremely durable horse. I won't let him take one very much that We want to take to the arena. They need the work ethic, but they are often put in situations that they have to use their body very hard in rough terrain or roping/pulling/stopping big stock.
He does all he can to make it easier on them, but sometimes things just happen. |
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Champ
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Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm | The thing people need to let go of is thinking bone size means durability. It's been disproven time and time again.
Now if you need a horse that has substance because you're roping bulls out in the pasture. That's a valid criteria.
Edited by OregonBR 2015-02-20 11:41 AM
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Queen Boobie 2
Posts: 7521
| OregonBR - 2015-02-20 11:31 AM
The thing people need to let go of is thinking bone size means durability. It's been disproven time and time again.
I have heard old timers say a running horse has a 'flat' bone that 'appears' more 'fine', while a colder blooded horse has a thick rounder bone.
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Champ
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Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm | 3ToBurn - 2015-02-20 9:38 AM OregonBR - 2015-02-20 11:31 AM The thing people need to let go of is thinking bone size means durability. It's been disproven time and time again. We all understand that. People need to realize that you can have both, it isn't a one or the other type deal. Are you talking bulk density or volumetric mass density?
There's only one kind of density. It means dense, heavy, solid, NON porous. strong. It has nothing to do with the diameter of the leg.
The only point I'm trying to make is people miss out on good horses because they are so hung up on bone size when it's NOT the only thing that matters. Running a horse that's hasn't been legged up before asking them for their life at a barrel race is asking for them to hurt themselves. Not having a good shoer who knows how to set them up so they can function without being in pain. Putting good food in their belly so they can maintain/repair themselves like the athletes they are. These are all more important than bone diameter. |
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 Shipwrecked and Flat Out Zapped
Posts: 16390
Location: DUMPING CATS AND PIGS IN TEXAS :) | 3ToBurn - 2015-02-20 11:46 AM Whiteboy - 2015-02-20 11:43 AM 3ToBurn - 2015-02-20 11:38 AM OregonBR - 2015-02-20 11:31 AM The thing people need to let go of is thinking bone size means durability. It's been disproven time and time again. We all understand that. People need to realize that you can have both, it isn't a one or the other type deal. Are you talking bulk density or volumetric mass density? Exactly my point. Most people have no idea what they are even talking about when it comes to density. Take two tree limbs for example...One may have a 3 inch circumference and one with a 30 inch circumference. They can have the same density, but which one has more strength when pressure is applied?
Duh, Whiteboy! |
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Champ
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Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm | 3ToBurn - 2015-02-20 9:46 AM Whiteboy - 2015-02-20 11:43 AM 3ToBurn - 2015-02-20 11:38 AM OregonBR - 2015-02-20 11:31 AM The thing people need to let go of is thinking bone size means durability. It's been disproven time and time again. We all understand that. People need to realize that you can have both, it isn't a one or the other type deal. Are you talking bulk density or volumetric mass density? Exactly my point. Most people have no idea what they are even talking about when it comes to density. Take two tree limbs for example...One may have a 3 inch circumference and one with a 30 inch circumference. They can have the same density, but which one has more strength when pressure is applied?
It depends on how elastic or brittle the limb is. There would NEVER be a 27" disparity in size of one horses limb to another. We are talking about fractions of an inch in difference unless draft horses are now considered able to run barrels. That's pretty far out there. |
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 I Prefer to Live in Fantasy Land
Posts: 64864
Location: In the Hills of Texas | OregonBR - 2015-02-20 11:25 AM oija - 2015-02-20 5:57 AM I'm curious about the comments on Ivory James. I've always been a particular fan. I'll also say I think the size of a bone has less to do with the sturdiness of a horse. I think they've posted numerous studies on here that bone density has more to do with exercise, feeding program, and regular sprinting than just with visible size. We have a gelding that to look at him anyone and everyone would drool because of the sturdy look of his feet and legs. But he is terribly clumsy and hurts himself constantly. He is now out of commission at 8 for the rest of his life. Bone size does not always equate to longevity. This ^^^
When I was in my 20's I bought a filly from a friend to run and then start on barrels. She was a pretty feminine little thing. I was worried about her holding up. But she started 21 times on the track. Ran AAA multiple times won three races and placed in the majority of her starts. Then I started her on barrels during the winter of her 3-4 year old year. She ran all the barrel futurities in my region as a 5 year old and most of the derbies as a 6. Then I started running her in rodeos. She won a lot. Finally as a 13 year old I hurt my back and she pulled her check ligament and it seemed like a good time to retire us both. I raised 4 babies out of her. 2 I still have. The other 2 I sold and they are still running in their late teens. Bone size has less to do with soundness than correct structure of the leg and good nuturition/exercise. Exercise is what makes bone gain density. Density + correct conformation is what makes a sound horse.
I just bought a filly to breed. She's not heavy boned but she is sound. She's had 17 starts from 2 to 4. Her last start was on January 25th. She ran 4th. She's won 2, 2 seconds and 3 thirds and won 23k.
Just something I've observed from breeding horses over the years. A male horse is born with more bone than a female of the same cross. A horse gets more bone as they age especially if they have been used most of their life. Excercise and bone density actually increase the size of the bone.
Bingo!
The finest born horse I ever owned never had lameness issues and ran into her twenties. The biggest problem I had is with 2 of the biggest bone horses I owned. It was always something and they were conformational correct.
Do I like the look of a big boned horse? Yes..but I feel you need to take them slower as they take longer for their bones to mature. When people pass on a horse just because they are fined boned need to do their homework. My brother had a fined bone TB that ran on the track and paid all of their bills. He sold him to a hunter jumper person when the horse was no longer able to run on the track because of his age, and the horse went on and had a great career as an Eventer.
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Champ
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Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm | 3ToBurn - 2015-02-20 10:05 AM OregonBR - 2015-02-20 11:50 AM 3ToBurn - 2015-02-20 9:38 AM OregonBR - 2015-02-20 11:31 AM The thing people need to let go of is thinking bone size means durability. It's been disproven time and time again. We all understand that. People need to realize that you can have both, it isn't a one or the other type deal. Are you talking bulk density or volumetric mass density?
The only point I'm trying to make is people miss out on good horses because they are so hung up on bone size when it's NOT the only thing that matters. Running a horse that's hasn't been legged up before asking them for their life at a barrel race is asking for them to hurt themselves. Not having a good shoer who knows how to set them up so they can function without being in pain. Putting good food in their belly so they can maintain/repair themselves like the athletes they are. These are all more important than bone diameter. If density is the same...the larger the diameter the more strength. It is a basic rule of physics.
I'll take an athlete over a clydesdale. |
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 Grandma's little Beauty Queen
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Location: Somewhere playing in the mud....Oklahoma | OregonBR - 2015-02-20 12:16 PM 3ToBurn - 2015-02-20 10:05 AM OregonBR - 2015-02-20 11:50 AM 3ToBurn - 2015-02-20 9:38 AM OregonBR - 2015-02-20 11:31 AM The thing people need to let go of is thinking bone size means durability. It's been disproven time and time again. We all understand that. People need to realize that you can have both, it isn't a one or the other type deal. Are you talking bulk density or volumetric mass density?
The only point I'm trying to make is people miss out on good horses because they are so hung up on bone size when it's NOT the only thing that matters. Running a horse that's hasn't been legged up before asking them for their life at a barrel race is asking for them to hurt themselves. Not having a good shoer who knows how to set them up so they can function without being in pain. Putting good food in their belly so they can maintain/repair themselves like the athletes they are. These are all more important than bone diameter. If density is the same...the larger the diameter the more strength. It is a basic rule of physics.
I agree 100% with OregonBR!! We have a 28 yr old mare who i youth rodeoed, and ran open barrrel races before 3D/4D's. She was TOUGH! 14.3 maybe, lighter made, but conformationaly built RIGHT... she's now carrying my 6 yr old daugther. She's lived her whole life and never had 1 single joint injection.
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 Saint Stacey
| 3ToBurn - 2015-02-20 10:18 AM
SKM - 2015-02-20 11:09 AM
Whiteboy I am curious....you say you'd like to have an IJ daughter for a broodmare. But then you question their ability to stay sound because you feel they have fine bones and look fragile. So why would you want one for a broodmare then? I'm not being snarky. I'm just trying to wrap my head around wanting a mare with those type of traits for breeding purposes is all.
I think they are very nicely built, beautiful top lines, nice hind ends, very nice necks and heads. I think that if you could cross them on the a more compact build, such as my stallion, hopefully you would end up with the best of both worlds. The IJ would add some speed and agility and hopefully, the sun Frost in my case would add the bone and durability that I like to see. I never said I didn't like them, but I think they could be improved upon to meet my taste!
I see. Thanks for answering! |
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 More bootie than waist!
Posts: 18425
Location: Riding Crackhead. | Whiteboy - 2015-02-19 11:41 AM bennie1 - 2015-02-19 10:33 AM I have not seen an ugly Ivory James. And Ivory James himself is really nice looking. I love Ivory James, and I want one real bad as a broodmare. But I just dont see how they can stay sound with those twigs for legs. Very beautiful horses, but look very fine boned.
I haven't read the entire thread so maybe you already answered this question but I'm confused as to why you would want a daughter of Ivory James but yet you say they won't stay sound? |
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 Yup, I am confused too!
Location: Florida | bennie1 - 2015-02-19 10:30 PM
Lil' D - 2015-02-19 8:26 PM
I have bred 4 different mares to BHR Frenchies Socks and every foal by him has been extremely well balanced, excellent conformation and very easy on the eyes. His colts want to work and they are getting the job done in the arena.
A good friend of mine has a BHR Frenchies Socks that is gorgeous. She will start her on barrels this year and is pretty excited about her.
It was a whole new love affair when I threw a leg over one, they are just so athletic! He has crossed well with all different kind of mares too. Wishing your friend the best of luck!
Edited by Lil' D 2015-02-20 1:10 PM
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More bootie than waist!
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Location: Riding Crackhead. | Whiteboy - 2015-02-20 1:22 PM CYA Ranch - 2015-02-20 12:43 PM Whiteboy - 2015-02-19 11:41 AM bennie1 - 2015-02-19 10:33 AM I have not seen an ugly Ivory James. And Ivory James himself is really nice looking. I love Ivory James, and I want one real bad as a broodmare. But I just dont see how they can stay sound with those twigs for legs. Very beautiful horses, but look very fine boned.
Sorry I didn't realize 3toburn was your alter ego. LOL |
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 Accident Prone
Posts: 22277
Location: 100 miles from Nowhere, AR | CYA Ranch - 2015-02-20 1:26 PM Whiteboy - 2015-02-20 1:22 PM CYA Ranch - 2015-02-20 12:43 PM Whiteboy - 2015-02-19 11:41 AM bennie1 - 2015-02-19 10:33 AM I have not seen an ugly Ivory James. And Ivory James himself is really nice looking. I love Ivory James, and I want one real bad as a broodmare. But I just dont see how they can stay sound with those twigs for legs. Very beautiful horses, but look very fine boned.
That's just frea-kyyyyyy |
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Shipwrecked and Flat Out Zapped
Posts: 16390
Location: DUMPING CATS AND PIGS IN TEXAS :) | Yuck. I'm grossed out now. |
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Jr. Detective
Location: Beggs, OK | SKM - 2015-02-20 12:33 PM 3ToBurn - 2015-02-20 10:18 AM SKM - 2015-02-20 11:09 AM Whiteboy I am curious....you say you'd like to have an IJ daughter for a broodmare. But then you question their ability to stay sound because you feel they have fine bones and look fragile. So why would you want one for a broodmare then? I'm not being snarky. I'm just trying to wrap my head around wanting a mare with those type of traits for breeding purposes is all. I think they are very nicely built, beautiful top lines, nice hind ends, very nice necks and heads. I think that if you could cross them on the a more compact build, such as my stallion, hopefully you would end up with the best of both worlds. The IJ would add some speed and agility and hopefully, the sun Frost in my case would add the bone and durability that I like to see. I never said I didn't like them, but I think they could be improved upon to meet my taste! I see. Thanks for answering!
Hmmm....  |
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Shipwrecked and Flat Out Zapped
Posts: 16390
Location: DUMPING CATS AND PIGS IN TEXAS :) | Dude, there's medicine for that. |
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 Expert
Posts: 3782
Location: Gainesville, TX | Whiteboy - 2015-02-20 1:50 PM
LRQHS - 2015-02-20 1:48 PM Dude, there's medicine for that.
Lol, damit!
Multiple personality disorder. Definitely medicine for that. |
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