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| rockette - 2016-03-23 1:52 PM
I haven't heard anything about Another Shot either.
I was wondering about him as well. He doesn't seem to be listed on Judd Little's site as standing any longer.
As for Clayton, I really feel he was dealt a dirty hand. By never futuriting him or running him for that matter he never got the chance to prove himself as his own. He is strictly being marketed on what Scamper did and although he is an exact genetic copy, he is not the same horse. With the controversy surrounding cloning, I would have thought they would have wanted the best shot at making him the very best marketable product they could. Maybe they thought Scamper's name was too big to fail in the breeding industry or maybe they really didn't have that much faith in the "resulting experiment" to try to put some credentials behind it?
Secondly, by starting him with such a high stud fee they pretty much left him with no where to go but down. In my perfect world, they would have kept it more "reasonable" maybe even "private treaty" until his babies hit the arena.
Honestly, it doesn't seem like he has that many colts on the ground that are of running age, I read this morning that he only has 25 (if you throw out the one of Brazil's that is questionably deceased) that are in the age range to run, one 7 year old (Halo), four 6 year olds, ten 5 year olds and ten 4 year olds. Those 4 and 5 year olds are really just debuting.
Any way I look at it, I feel they set him up for a big fall. |
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| cyount2009 - 2016-03-23 1:28 PM
rockette - 2016-03-23 1:52 PM
I haven't heard anything about Another Shot either.
I was wondering about him as well. He doesn't seem to be listed on Judd Little's site as standing any longer.
As for Clayton, I really feel he was dealt a dirty hand. By never futuriting him or running him for that matter he never got the chance to prove himself as his own. He is strictly being marketed on what Scamper did and although he is an exact genetic copy, he is not the same horse. With the controversy surrounding cloning, I would have thought they would have wanted the best shot at making him the very best marketable product they could. Maybe they thought Scamper's name was too big to fail in the breeding industry or maybe they really didn't have that much faith in the "resulting experiment" to try to put some credentials behind it?
Secondly, by starting him with such a high stud fee they pretty much left him with no where to go but down. In my perfect world, they would have kept it more "reasonable" maybe even "private treaty" until his babies hit the arena.
Honestly, it doesn't seem like he has that many colts on the ground that are of running age, I read this morning that he only has 25 (if you throw out the one of Brazil's that is questionably deceased ) that are in the age range to run, one 7 year old (Halo ), four 6 year olds, ten 5 year olds and ten 4 year olds. Those 4 and 5 year olds are really just debuting.
Any way I look at it, I feel they set him up for a big fall.
I was at a CJ clinic a few years back, and Clayton came up as some girls had questions. She wont bring him up butnwas very happy to talk about him.
What she said, was she was never going to compete on him, he would never fill scampers shoes, no matter what he did or how much he won everbody would consider scamper better. I do agree with that, Im not sure we will ever see a horse win 10 world championships again, thats incredible and If Clayton did not Scamper would STILL be better. No matter what he did the public eye would still falt Clayton as being less.
Not saying I agree with her choice one way or another but I do agree that the public on the whole would never consider him equal as a barrel horse to scamper.
I really think the whole deal was a lose lose situation, to run him or not. No matter what they did it is wrong lol. |
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| horsiace1025 - 2016-03-23 1:33 PM Yes, and I seen the Viagen (cloning company) ad with Mary walker in the Picture?? Whats up with that? Is she gonna clone Latte?
I am fairly certain they already did clone him... |
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 Pres. ViaGen
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| I think it is easy to forget why the cloned stallion was produced. He was produced to make Scamper's genetics available for future foals. The performance record of the stallion (Clayton) would not impact his genetic contribution to his foals. By definition, breeding to Clayton is the same as breeding to Scamper if he had remained a stallion. Of course, a performance record on Clayton would have further validated the genetics behind Scamper's incredible record, but the real effort was to focus on the breeding potential rather than further test Scamper's performance genotype. We all know how challenging it is to prove a stallion, and I think the Clayton foal crops will be interesting to watch. We all know that Scamper was an incredible athlete, now we get to test his breeding value. |
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  Warmblood with Wings
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Location: Florida.. | Blake Russell - 2016-03-23 4:14 PM I think it is easy to forget why the cloned stallion was produced. He was produced to make Scamper's genetics available for future foals. The performance record of the stallion (Clayton) would not impact his genetic contribution to his foals. By definition, breeding to Clayton is the same as breeding to Scamper if he had remained a stallion. Of course, a performance record on Clayton would have further validated the genetics behind Scamper's incredible record, but the real effort was to focus on the breeding potential rather than further test Scamper's performance genotype. We all know how challenging it is to prove a stallion, and I think the Clayton foal crops will be interesting to watch. We all know that Scamper was an incredible athlete, now we get to test his breeding value. Smartest post on here .. this should answer many questions.Think about it.. How many times we have said Id like to have had a baby from him but he was deceased and no frozen semen.. that was the original concept .. I think.. not to prove how good the clone is..nor to replace the original in the arena.. its all genetics but thats just my opinion..
Edited by Bibliafarm 2016-03-23 3:36 PM
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 Extreme Veteran
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Location: torrington, wy | Well Clayton isn't the only one. Doesn't Frenchmans Guy have 2 clones? You don't see them running or any adds on them, makes you wonder? I am not for giving clones a regular reg. but if you have the bucks and want to try it, Why not. |
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Warmblood with Wings
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Location: Florida.. | Actually there is.. |
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Location: torrington, wy | Nevertooold - 2016-03-21 2:44 PM SKM - 2016-03-21 12:56 PM swd - 2016-03-21 10:49 AM SKM, This sounds like an interesting story. Could you provide more info so I can read up? Sorry, but no I can't. The gentleman was a family friend and it was a discussion around the breakfast table one day when he was at our house. Nothing was ever published about it and he has since passed away. Like I said, he never believed the horse was what the papers said, DNA testing became available and he had the chance to get a sample for his own curiosity, not to make waves. Plus the right sire and the wrong sire were both deceased so it served to purpose. But breeding a great stallion under a lessor stallions name happened all the time back then.
I remember many times people saying that they would like to know how their horse really was bred.
Don't you all recall the deal with Impressive? His owner was banned from AQHA, Jerry Wells did also for the same reason but with a mare not a stallion.What I'd like to know, if you breed to a stallion that is alive but has clones who's semen are you getting? |
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Location: Kansas and loving it | Bibliafarm - 2016-03-23 3:29 PM
Blake Russell - 2016-03-23 4:14 PM I think it is easy to forget why the cloned stallion was produced. He was produced to make Scamper's genetics available for future foals. The performance record of the stallion (Clayton) would not impact his genetic contribution to his foals. By definition, breeding to Clayton is the same as breeding to Scamper if he had remained a stallion. Of course, a performance record on Clayton would have further validated the genetics behind Scamper's incredible record, but the real effort was to focus on the breeding potential rather than further test Scamper's performance genotype. We all know how challenging it is to prove a stallion, and I think the Clayton foal crops will be interesting to watch. We all know that Scamper was an incredible athlete, now we get to test his breeding value. Smartest post on here .. this should answer many questions.Think about it.. How many times we have said Id like to have had a baby from him but he was deceased and no frozen semen.. that was the original concept .. I think.. not to prove how good the clone is..nor to replace the original in the arena.. its all genetics but thats just my opinion..
Yet there is no proof that a clone would sire exactly like the original. None of the Smart Little Lena clones have sired anything that I can find. Also, I don't believe Scampers genetics made him a champion. Conformation of the individual yes, but mostly heart made him a legend. |
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Location: torrington, wy | Bibliafarm - 2016-03-23 3:33 PM Actually there is..
You are right. How interesting is that. |
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Elite Veteran
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| And sometimes people do get too caught up in the how much is something really worth. If you were CJ and had owned the best barrel horse of all time you wouldnt care how anyone else felt about the cituation. Im sure it doesnt really matter to her if Clayton tops any kind of produce records, she is just happy she gets a little piece of Scamper to keep going with. I would just love up on Clayton and be happy too. |
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Pres. ViaGen
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| The primary proof would be the science behind DNA tests that demonstrate the point. However, most phenotypic traits are the result of a genetic x environment interaction. That is why identical twins can have the same breeding value while still having a few noticeable differences in phenotype. The cloned stallion is passing along only a genetic contribution which is also all that the original could pass along. The environment is the rest and varies from conception forward - that impacts individual performance but not breeding value. I apologize for jumping on this thread, but saw Clayton and hoped to catch up. |
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Warmblood with Wings
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Location: Florida.. | rockette - 2016-03-23 4:45 PM Bibliafarm - 2016-03-23 3:29 PM Blake Russell - 2016-03-23 4:14 PM I think it is easy to forget why the cloned stallion was produced. He was produced to make Scamper's genetics available for future foals. The performance record of the stallion (Clayton) would not impact his genetic contribution to his foals. By definition, breeding to Clayton is the same as breeding to Scamper if he had remained a stallion. Of course, a performance record on Clayton would have further validated the genetics behind Scamper's incredible record, but the real effort was to focus on the breeding potential rather than further test Scamper's performance genotype. We all know how challenging it is to prove a stallion, and I think the Clayton foal crops will be interesting to watch. We all know that Scamper was an incredible athlete, now we get to test his breeding value. Smartest post on here .. this should answer many questions.Think about it.. How many times we have said Id like to have had a baby from him but he was deceased and no frozen semen.. that was the original concept .. I think.. not to prove how good the clone is..nor to replace the original in the arena.. its all genetics but thats just my opinion.. Yet there is no proof that a clone would sire exactly like the original. None of the Smart Little Lena clones have sired anything that I can find. Also, I don't believe Scampers genetics made him a champion. Conformation of the individual yes, but mostly heart made him a legend.
Your correct.. its for the genetics.. that is all.. They never state the colt would be a champion or "exactly" like him.. its for genetics.. its a gamble but so is everything else.. alot more play into it I agree.. but when someone wants a clone they know the genetics are the same.. anything else contributing to the champions or the horse comes from all the other stuff..but thats with anything.. you can take scamper and put him with a amatuar or not in training or whatever.. and hed not have been the champion.. so its alot more complicated.. but the fact is cloning is for the genetic aspect and you do the rest.. if that makes sense.. and with that said... why are so many barrelracers wanting certain bloodlines if it doesnt matter to much at all ? it does matter..and some are wanting to do this... and cj might have cloned him for her own personal reasons.. as someone stated.. of course I dont know much about it it just is common sense the reasoning .. its from the other angle
Edited by Bibliafarm 2016-03-23 4:05 PM
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Location: Kansas and loving it | Blake Russell - 2016-03-23 3:53 PM
The primary proof would be the science behind DNA tests that demonstrate the point. However, most phenotypic traits are the result of a genetic x environment interaction. That is why identical twins can have the same breeding value while still having a few noticeable differences in phenotype. The cloned stallion is passing along only a genetic contribution which is also all that the original could pass along. The environment is the rest and varies from conception forward - that impacts individual performance but not breeding value. I apologize for jumping on this thread, but saw Clayton and hoped to catch up.
You don't need to apologize, I hope that I am not coming off snarky. I mean this for any clone :) |
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Location: Kansas and loving it | I also wanted to say that I am not criticizing anyone's decision. Really just trying to see why there has been no equine success as far as breeding. I hope that it all stays as a learning discussion. I would love to see pictures of Clayton babies or any babies. |
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Pres. ViaGen
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| The US equine industry is coming along slowly with this technology and I think that is appropriate. The European breeders are moving more aggressively but that is probably because there is less monetary difference due to no registry exclusion. I have a cloned stallion of my own (Tailor Fit) and we only know that the original gelding was an elite athlete at the track. We have yet to prove if his breeding value is similar to his performance. That will take years of time to prove. In livestock, cloned parents dominate show cattle and show pigs and are playing a major role in dairy shows and goats, etc. These are phenotype/conformation shows that are heavily genetic driven but they do continue to validate the science. The cloned stallions of Frenchmans Guy are a great opportunity for mare owners to access the same breeding value of a proven stallion at a much more affordable rate. |
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Location: Kansas and loving it | Blake Russell - 2016-03-23 4:21 PM
The US equine industry is coming along slowly with this technology and I think that is appropriate. The European breeders are moving more aggressively but that is probably because there is less monetary difference due to no registry exclusion. I have a cloned stallion of my own (Tailor Fit) and we only know that the original gelding was an elite athlete at the track. We have yet to prove if his breeding value is similar to his performance. That will take years of time to prove. In livestock, cloned parents dominate show cattle and show pigs and are playing a major role in dairy shows and goats, etc. These are phenotype/conformation shows that are heavily genetic driven but they do continue to validate the science. The cloned stallions of Frenchmans Guy are a great opportunity for mare owners to access the same breeding value of a proven stallion at a much more affordable rate.
Ahh. Ok. That explains why cattle cloning has done so well. I am a little hard headed but I get it eventually! :D |
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 Firecracker Dog Lover
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| This has been an interesting discussion. I suppose I understand wanting to clone a great gelding whose lines would not be available otherwise. However, having said that, cloning an already great stallion, especially those still alive, dilutes the gene pool in my opinion. Sure it gives mare owners a more affordable option but for me personally I would not do it. I do not want to breed a mare to a stallion that has multiple clones and for those wanting to breed to the original stallion - you can never truly know if you are getting the original or the clone. I simply would not take that chance but that is my own personal opinion. Not judging anyone who does. Dash4kj's Clayton foals are really nice - I think she could have bred that mare to a donkey and gotten an outstanding athlete - that mare is just outstanding all on her own. |
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Warmblood with Wings
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Location: Florida.. | brlraceaddict - 2016-03-23 5:43 PM This has been an interesting discussion. I suppose I understand wanting to clone a great gelding whose lines would not be available otherwise. However, having said that, cloning an already great stallion, especially those still alive, dilutes the gene pool in my opinion. Sure it gives mare owners a more affordable option but for me personally I would not do it. I do not want to breed a mare to a stallion that has multiple clones and for those wanting to breed to the original stallion - you can never truly know if you are getting the original or the clone. I simply would not take that chance but that is my own personal opinion. Not judging anyone who does. Dash4kj's Clayton foals are really nice - I think she could have bred that mare to a donkey and gotten an outstanding athlete - that mare is just outstanding all on her own. She sure is a superstar!!
and boyfriend is looking really good.huge fan of them . 
Edited by Bibliafarm 2016-03-23 4:46 PM
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Firecracker Dog Lover
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| Bibliafarm - 2016-03-23 2:45 PM brlraceaddict - 2016-03-23 5:43 PM This has been an interesting discussion. I suppose I understand wanting to clone a great gelding whose lines would not be available otherwise. However, having said that, cloning an already great stallion, especially those still alive, dilutes the gene pool in my opinion. Sure it gives mare owners a more affordable option but for me personally I would not do it. I do not want to breed a mare to a stallion that has multiple clones and for those wanting to breed to the original stallion - you can never truly know if you are getting the original or the clone. I simply would not take that chance but that is my own personal opinion. Not judging anyone who does. Dash4kj's Clayton foals are really nice - I think she could have bred that mare to a donkey and gotten an outstanding athlete - that mare is just outstanding all on her own. She sure is a superstar!!
and boyfriend is looking really good.huge fan of them .
Indeed they are looking really good - she is doing a fantastic job with them! |
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