Mighty Broke - 2017-01-17 6:58 AM The thing that people always miss when discussing drugs in horse racing is that it has nothing to do with the welfare of the horse or a anything like that---they want to keep an even playing field for the betting public. There is no gambling(legally) on barrel racing so I do not see drug testing happening in a large scale.

Yes, at most tracks the winner is tested and at out TB track one random is pulled from each race.

 

Mighty Broke - 2017-01-17 6:58 AM


The thing that people always miss when discussing drugs in horse racing is that it has nothing to do with the welfare of the horse or a anything like that---they want to keep an even playing field for the betting public. There is no gambling(legally) on barrel racing so I do not see drug testing happening in a large scale.
Yes, at most tracks the winner is tested and at out TB track one random is pulled from each race.
 

iloveequine40 - 2017-01-17 8:22 AM


I agree that gambling is part of the equation that constitutes the necessity for testing in the race industry. Having said that with if their is a concern of the overall welfare of the animal by organizations advocating for these events then why not regulate a little more? These events are growing and more eyes are looking. All it takes is a few bad apples and ruins the image for all.

mreklaw - 2017-01-17 4:48 AM


Well I won't insult your intelligence because you obviously don't get my point. That kind of person that would try this cares nothing about their animal. They just want to win at any cost.Hey call me sometime and I will give you a list of other drugs I have heard of people using. The list is long unfortunately. You can't change it by talking about it either. That kind of person will always exist so obviously they are contributing to the gene pool.

Bear - 2017-01-16 8:13 PM I was hoping you would chime in, doc.

Bear - 2017-01-17 8:40 AM On the basic premise put forth on this thread we are all in agreement.....use of certain drugs is cheating. We all also agree that these drugs also have another thing in common in that they endanger the health and well being of horses. These things are not debatable. Where you and I differ is you think my having the audacity of brining it up and going into specific details somehow will give people so inclined to win at all costs new ideas. I submit that those people have already given serious consideration to using these sorts of drugs, and, most likely have explored those options, at the very least. To some, my showing how these drugs are definitely available is eye opening, if not shocking. The more this is talked about is a good thing, in my opinion, and in opening up this discussion, the good far outweighs the bad. To me, as an outsider looking in, I have had the feeling that discussions like this are taboo. Those who think it is taboo are just laying back waiting for an opportunity to shoot the messenger. They are looking for a misstatement so they can take the conversation in a different direction. It's analogous to the rumors surrounding the sweet, loving Father John and his close relationships to alter boys. For years these rumors are taboo.......until someone spills the beans, and then the floodgates open. Fast forward a few years, and Father John is behind bars after dozens of former altar boys come forth with the graphic details.......leaving the parishioners stunned and wondering why someone didn't say something sooner.

uno-dos-tres! - 2017-01-17 8:40 AM


She'll have lots to chime in about shortly.

Bear, I left the race track two decades ago, started to train my own barrel horses and only my own due to what I was asked to do by a barrel horse owner.

Like Kathie said earlier, most of the time I'm trying to keep their little brains and long legs under control. I will use "stuff" when I'm training to keep me and the horse safe but I would hope that by the time training is done I have a colt that can handle the pressure of futurities.

If your looking for frog use in humans just give our ME a call here in San Antonio our local west side supplier likes it hot.

CD, can I knit you a jaw holder?  

Speedy Buckeye Girl - 2017-01-17 9:19 AM I think it's an interesting topic Bear brought up.  What blows my mind is that some of those in these conversations seemed shocked that someone in the barrel racing world would use Frog Juice (or any other performance enhancement drug)...why is that shocking?  People find ways to cheat in every single discipline, sport, contest, etc. 



IMO, while the financial gains are stronger indicators as to the higher probability of cheating, even small backyard stuff has people doing stupid and unethical things to win.  Sadly, with the drugs, some of these people literally have the mind set that if you don't dope 'em with something then it's impossible to win.  



Frog juice I certainly heard of on the track.  I haven't actually heard anyone discuss it in barrel racing, but if I did, it certainly wouldn't surprise me.  I just know there is an awful lot of needles/syringes at big events and I don't think they are all just lasix...

 

IRunOnFaith - 2017-01-17 10:30 AM  Good point... Unfortuneately... 

smmthbr - 2017-01-17 9:46 AM

First, kudos to you Bear for bringing this topic to light, again.  Perhaps more people will be aware of it, and not suffer from it with the knowing: when purchasing a whiz bang winner, when competing, when owning and caring for any horse.  

As a Horse Show Manager, I can tell you that drug testing is VERY expensive for any producer and is a crap shoot.  When ordering a drug test, there are SO many hoops to jump through and again, the expense is prohibitive.  Standard practice at AQHA and USEF shows, and I am sure many other breed associations, but for the normal open show or barrel producer - the cost and intricacies of arranging for it are enormous.  The organizations that demand it will require a drug fee from each horse to help defray the costs, and they will arrange for a random drug tester (vet/lab) to go to selected horse shows and randomly select horses to be tested, and then only for the specified (and very specific) drugs.  

My point is, that for the average show/barrel race producer, the cost is not realistic unless you pass the cost on to the exhibitor - and we all know how exhibitors feel about extra fees.  The logistics of equine drug testing at an event are mind boggling, so owners/riders/trainers better be aware of what goes on and decide if they want to be party to it or not and self-adjudicate within your industry/event/activity.  
 

Bear - 2017-01-17 10:56 AM Honest question here. Let's begin with a premise that the goal is to make drug testing an effective deterrent. Let's say you want to set up a protocol for drug testing, and you are expecting 300-500 entries. How would you do it?

Mighty Broke - 2017-01-17 10:07 AM


IMO---can't be done. Say you want to do the winner and a random here and there. How would you do that ?? Many times the person who won has already left. It is not like in racing where the winner is known within minutes and they take them directly to the test barn. Even in rodeo it would be tough---when you do not know the actual winner for several night unless they would test the winner from each performance.

smmthbr - 2017-01-17 10:24 AM

Assuming I was a "private" producer (i.e. not AQHA/USEF, etc)., I would research a lab that does equine drug testing and determine the most effective and affordable. Then decide what on their list I could/wanted to have tested for and select the "families" of said drugs and how many "tests" you want done/how many samples you want taken. Then hire a vet or acceptable vet tech to come and pull blood or collect urine samples. Formulate protocol on how, via an unbiased individual, the selection for who to test was going to be made and the follow up of collecting the sample, getting it to the lab, etc. Of course, this is it in a nutshell and there are many other steps to be taken. However, I have found that some state governments have rules in place to assist with/mandate equine event drug testing and if in one of those states, I assume it would be much easier. For example, here in Oklahoma, the state vets will get involved with racetrack drug testing, but there aren't any other provisions for other breeds/equine activities that I am aware of.

Nothing can be done quickly or last minute...takes many hours of research, decision making and planning, and again, many $$. It's a conundrum -

Bear - 2017-01-17 11:40 AM Thanks. I know that random testing (urine screens) in humans used to be much more expensive, but has become a lot cheaper. I would think policy of testing even say the top 3 in each "D" would be a decent deterrent. It satisfies two desirable goals....randomness, and testing of the top winners. I would think that for bigger jackpots, the cost of 12 random tests would not be prohibitive. Human urine drug screens are cheap, like $25 per test. I'm not sure about serum testing for drugs in people...maybe $75? Just a guess.

Bear - 2017-01-17 10:40 AM Thanks. I know that random testing (urine screens) in humans used to be much more expensive, but has become a lot cheaper. I would think policy of testing even say the top 3 in each "D" would be a decent deterrent. It satisfies two desirable goals....randomness, and testing of the top winners. I would think that for bigger jackpots, the cost of 12 random tests would not be prohibitive. Human urine drug screens are cheap, like $25 per test. I'm not sure about serum testing for drugs in people...maybe $75? Just a guess.

Mighty Broke - 2017-01-17 10:47 AM


Then we run into the timing issue again---say there is 500 horses and you run 50 an hour. First horses to run if they hit will not be tested till 8 hours, at least later. In horse racing certain things are allowed but the quantity in the system has to be under certain levels---these levels could drastically change in 8 hours or would there be a zero tolerance policy ????? Ace, Banamine, Clenbutoral, as stated Frog Juice. Where do we draw the line on what is "performance enhancing" and what isn't ???