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The DOT, horse rigs and the new log systems

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Reg. Nov 2007
Posted 2017-12-28 6:32 PM
Subject: RE: The DOT, horse rigs and the new log systems



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DOT TEMPORARILY WAIVES LOGGING DEVICE MANDATE FOR AGRICULTURE
 


90-DAY WAIVER EXTENDED TO LOOK AT AGRICULTURE'S REQUEST FOR AN EXEMPTION FROM MANDATE

 
Press Release from Department of Transportation
?Dec. 3, 2017
The Department of Transportation has granted a 90-day waiver from the requirement that agricultural and livestock haulers install electronic logging devices in their vehicles. Over those 90 days the department plans to look closely at agriculture’s request for an exemption while developing additional guidance for agricultural haulers.
Most farmers and ranchers should be exempt from the ELD mandate because they can claim covered farm vehicle status, but drivers who haul livestock, live fish and insects are likely to fall under the requirements.
In September, the American Farm Bureau Federation and seven livestock organizations petitioned DOT for a waiver and exemption from the Dec. 18 ELD implementation deadline. In their request, the groups explained their two biggest concerns about the requirement: livestock haulers’ readiness to comply and the effect on the transported animals’ well-being.
Drivers who have to use ELDs would be limited to current hours of service rules, which restrict a driver to only 14 “on duty” hours, with no more than 11 active driving hours. Once a driver hits those maximum hour allotments, he must stop and rest for 10 consecutive hours, which would be problematic when transporting livestock and other live animals.
In their petition, the groups pointed out livestock haulers’ strong commitment to ensuring the safety of both the animals they’re transporting and the drivers they share the road with. In addition, livestock haulers often receive specialized training beyond that required for their counterparts driving conventional commercial motor vehicles. The pork industry’s Transport Quality Assurance Program and the beef industry’s Master Cattle Transporter program provide detailed instruction on proper animal handling and transportation methods.
“As reflected in the [Federal Motor Carrier Safety Administration’s] data, the emphasis these programs place on animal welfare benefits driver safety as it encourages livestock haulers to slow down, be more aware of their surroundings and road conditions, and avoid rough-road situations that could result in animal injury,” the groups noted.
Another major roadblock to implementation for livestock haulers is their lack of awareness of the rule. Because the livestock hauling industry is small compared to the overall trucking industry, it isn’t strongly engaged by DOT’s Federal Motor Carrier Safety Administration. As a result, livestock drivers who are aware of the program have had difficulty researching the ELD marketplace and identifying cost-effective solutions that are compatible with livestock hauling and current agricultural hours of service exemptions.
In their petition, the groups also asked DOT to address the incompatibilities between the FMCSA’s hours of service rules and the structure and realities of the U.S. livestock sector.
“For many drivers, there is concern that there are those, with no understanding of or concern for animal welfare or livestock hauling, who will arbitrarily penalize them for choosing the proper care of animals over stopping in excessive heat or cold because of an arbitrary HOS cutoff,” the groups said.
 
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jropergirl
Reg. Jun 2005
Posted 2017-12-29 3:15 PM
Subject: RE: The DOT, horse rigs and the new log systems



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foundation horse - 2017-12-28 5:38 PM

jropergirl - 2017-12-28 2:43 PM

 The whole 26001 combined Gross Vehicle Weight Rating (GVWR)  is such a random thing. I honestly don't think that any of this is intended to rope us in -- but we are an "unintended" consequence of the law. Basically your horses are your hobby. You don't raise them, train them or sell them if they ask you. The answer is, I am going to a rodeo. I go to a few every year. No, I don't write my horses off, and no, I don't claim my winnings as income.  

Also, you're exempt from CDL requirements in most states if your LQ trailer is registered as an RV.  Not sure how to go about doing that, but that's a good place to start. It's not really any different than a toy hauler -- your toys just have four legs instead of four wheels -- that's from a state dot guy in SD. 

You might want to review the Federal Regulations in regards to the 26001 weight rating(s). As well as the rest of the regulations you are referring to. I am quite confident that You are at minimum incorrect. And I am also quite confident You have never dealt with a revenue hungry or safety conscious Law Enforcement or DOT Official who is having a bad day....................

I’m researching for an article on this very thing. So please don’t tell me I don’t know what I’m talking about. I’ve talked to countless dot guys. The federal Regs are what they are, but it’s true about the trailers being registered as Rvs. And from the dot guys I’ve talked to, they’re not generally interested in the local barrel racer. If your rig is over 26001 you are required by federal law to have the cdl — but until now, Ag has had so many exemptions that it hasn’t really been enforced.

LEO have no idea how many days we’ve hauled that month. They aren’t expecting us to keep a copy of our tax returns with us so they have no idea If we are claiming winnings or writing off our horses. It comes down to what they can prove when they have you on the side of the road. And frankly, they pull over he wrong person and there’s going to be a case make the Supreme Court About the constitutionality of all this current bull**** going on. Again I say, I do not drive for a living. I am not and should not be considered a commercial driver. I am not guaranteed a check when I get where I’m gojng. I’m not guaranteed to sell a horse based on my travels either. I think this is a good time to have a discussion about what truly constitutes a commercial enterprise and whose business it is if I’m in business. I feel like all of this is an invasion of privacy.
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kwanatha
Reg. Dec 2003
Posted 2017-12-29 3:57 PM
Subject: RE: The DOT, horse rigs and the new log systems


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I guess grandma needs her cdl for when she drives to bingo or thr casino . She just might win money
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foundation horse
Reg. Aug 2004
Posted 2017-12-29 7:36 PM
Subject: RE: The DOT, horse rigs and the new log systems


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jropergirl - 2017-12-29 3:15 PM

foundation horse - 2017-12-28 5:38 PM

jropergirl - 2017-12-28 2:43 PM

 The whole 26001 combined Gross Vehicle Weight Rating (GVWR)  is such a random thing. I honestly don't think that any of this is intended to rope us in -- but we are an "unintended" consequence of the law. Basically your horses are your hobby. You don't raise them, train them or sell them if they ask you. The answer is, I am going to a rodeo. I go to a few every year. No, I don't write my horses off, and no, I don't claim my winnings as income.  

Also, you're exempt from CDL requirements in most states if your LQ trailer is registered as an RV.  Not sure how to go about doing that, but that's a good place to start. It's not really any different than a toy hauler -- your toys just have four legs instead of four wheels -- that's from a state dot guy in SD. 

You might want to review the Federal Regulations in regards to the 26001 weight rating(s). As well as the rest of the regulations you are referring to. I am quite confident that You are at minimum incorrect. And I am also quite confident You have never dealt with a revenue hungry or safety conscious Law Enforcement or DOT Official who is having a bad day....................

I’m researching for an article on this very thing. So please don’t tell me I don’t know what I’m talking about. I’ve talked to countless dot guys. The federal Regs are what they are, but it’s true about the trailers being registered as Rvs. And from the dot guys I’ve talked to, they’re not generally interested in the local barrel racer. If your rig is over 26001 you are required by federal law to have the cdl — but until now, Ag has had so many exemptions that it hasn’t really been enforced.

LEO have no idea how many days we’ve hauled that month. They aren’t expecting us to keep a copy of our tax returns with us so they have no idea If we are claiming winnings or writing off our horses. It comes down to what they can prove when they have you on the side of the road. And frankly, they pull over he wrong person and there’s going to be a case make the Supreme Court About the constitutionality of all this current bull**** going on. Again I say, I do not drive for a living. I am not and should not be considered a commercial driver. I am not guaranteed a check when I get where I’m gojng. I’m not guaranteed to sell a horse based on my travels either. I think this is a good time to have a discussion about what truly constitutes a commercial enterprise and whose business it is if I’m in business. I feel like all of this is an invasion of privacy.

You need to keep researching then, cause what I stated is FACTUALLY CORRECT. And You yourself have admitted it. The Feds have discovered a hitherto untapped source of revenue and now it is going to be taken advantage of.


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jropergirl
Reg. Jun 2005
Posted 2018-01-02 9:17 AM
Subject: RE: The DOT, horse rigs and the new log systems



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I think we have a breakdown in communication I simply said that the 26001k rule is an arbitrary number. 

I also stated that the DOT doesn't expect you to carry your tax returns around. They can't prove that we've been on the road more than 8 days out of the month, unless they ask for health certs and we've got 10 rodeos on one health cert -- and even then depending on where they're located, they could still all fit w/in that exemption. They can only prove what they can prove with questions on the side of the road. Several state DOT guys have said that these regs are roping in people they're not intendd to catch. 

RVs are EXEMPT, and a horse trailer that has LQ is exempt -- it'd be just like a toy hauler -- and that's from the SD DOT. There is actually a website that shares which states exempt them.  You're also exempt up to 150 air miles from home. 
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3canstorun
Reg. May 2007
Posted 2018-01-02 12:09 PM
Subject: RE: The DOT, horse rigs and the new log systems



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jropergirl - 2018-01-02 10:17 AM I think we have a breakdown in communication I simply said that the 26001k rule is an arbitrary number. 



I also stated that the DOT doesn't expect you to carry your tax returns around. They can't prove that we've been on the road more than 8 days out of the month, unless they ask for health certs and we've got 10 rodeos on one health cert -- and even then depending on where they're located, they could still all fit w/in that exemption. They can only prove what they can prove with questions on the side of the road. Several state DOT guys have said that these regs are roping in people they're not intendd to catch. 



RVs are EXEMPT, and a horse trailer that has LQ is exempt -- it'd be just like a toy hauler -- and that's from the SD DOT. There is actually a website that shares which states exempt them.  You're also exempt up to 150 air miles from home. 

But you are wrong again.  The 26,001 isn't an arbitary number.  It is the law.  Federal law.  Has been for a very long time.  Probably as long as you are old. 

 
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Three 4 Luck
Reg. Sep 2003
Posted 2018-01-02 1:20 PM
Subject: RE: The DOT, horse rigs and the new log systems



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3canstorun - 2018-01-02 12:09 PM
jropergirl - 2018-01-02 10:17 AM I think we have a breakdown in communication I simply said that the 26001k rule is an arbitrary number. 



I also stated that the DOT doesn't expect you to carry your tax returns around. They can't prove that we've been on the road more than 8 days out of the month, unless they ask for health certs and we've got 10 rodeos on one health cert -- and even then depending on where they're located, they could still all fit w/in that exemption. They can only prove what they can prove with questions on the side of the road. Several state DOT guys have said that these regs are roping in people they're not intendd to catch. 



RVs are EXEMPT, and a horse trailer that has LQ is exempt -- it'd be just like a toy hauler -- and that's from the SD DOT. There is actually a website that shares which states exempt them.  You're also exempt up to 150 air miles from home. 
But you are wrong again.  The 26,001 isn't an arbitary number.  It is the law.  Federal law.  Has been for a very long time.  Probably as long as you are old. 



 

I know what she meant.  Yes, 26001 is the law, but it's just a number they pulled out of their collective butts.  It doesn't actually MEAN anything in a practical sense.
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SC Wrangler
Reg. Jul 2004
Posted 2018-01-02 1:25 PM
Subject: RE: The DOT, horse rigs and the new log systems


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There is a HUGE difference in how the DOT rules/laws are enforced state to state.  Many states have very lenient rules when it comes to exempting RV's from the mandates. Ain't no way all the old geezers (blind, crippled and dangerous in a compact car) driving or pulling big RVs have CDLs, and log systems.   I would suggest that individuals take a look at the state rules as they pertain to RV's, see how they apply to your rig and situation, and make decisions accordingly.
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1DSoon
Reg. May 2009
Posted 2018-01-02 2:03 PM
Subject: RE: The DOT, horse rigs and the new log systems





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SC Wrangler - 2018-01-02 2:25 PM There is a HUGE difference in how the DOT rules/laws are enforced state to state.  Many states have very lenient rules when it comes to exempting RV's from the mandates. Ain't no way all the old geezers (blind, crippled and dangerous in a compact car) driving or pulling big RVs have CDLs, and log systems.   I would suggest that individuals take a look at the state rules as they pertain to RV's, see how they apply to your rig and situation, and make decisions accordingly.

The State Laws are only relavent when they are more stringent than Federal Regs. 


They do not have the ability to make regulations that are more lax than the Fed Regs. 


 
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spitzh
Reg. Sep 2011
Posted 2018-01-02 5:04 PM
Subject: RE: The DOT, horse rigs and the new log systems



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For the non professional rodeo ppl, couldnt you just tell them that you are headed to the trainers or a friends house? Ive traveled across states lines for both. How would they know what you are up to? Please dont flame me, its just a question. I live in Reno, Cali has some nice races to go to.
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jropergirl
Reg. Jun 2005
Posted 2018-01-02 6:02 PM
Subject: RE: The DOT, horse rigs and the new log systems



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 Yes, that is what I meant  re: that 26,001, is a number someone pulled out of their A$$. That is my point. It has zero meaning and captures people it has no business capturing. Even the websites that want to inform commercial drivers about the mandate, have no idea it will force most rodeo competitors into "submission". 

I realize (now) it's been a law since 1986, but that doesn't mean it has any rhyme or reason as to the thought process behind the seemly random CGVWR that forces someone who drives a dually and pulls a 4h with LQ to get a CDL. Most of what the federal governement does has no rhyme or reason, imo. Hehe.  And if it's been around for so long, why wasn't this an issue when I was college rodeoing, pulling a big rig? Why am I just now hearing about this at 40 years old? That's the issue I have -- how has the horse industry as a whole had zero clues that this was even a thing that affected them? 
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jropergirl
Reg. Jun 2005
Posted 2018-01-02 6:11 PM
Subject: RE: The DOT, horse rigs and the new log systems



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spitzh - 2018-01-02 5:04 PM For the non professional rodeo ppl, couldnt you just tell them that you are headed to the trainers or a friends house? Ive traveled across states lines for both. How would they know what you are up to? Please dont flame me, its just a question. I live in Reno, Cali has some nice races to go to.

Depends...If they ask for your health papers, then no. But proving you do it as a business is another issue altogether and the water gets muddy when you take into account what the IRS has to say about "Hobbies". 

https://www.irs.gov/newsroom/hobby-or-business-irs-offers-tips-to-decide

For most people, barrel racing is a hobby. Heck even raising those two-three colts/ year is considered a hobby for many people. So the idea that you're engaged in pursuit of a "commercaal venture" which is how the rule reads, by simply going to a barrel race/rodeo where you have the "Potential" to win money is laughable, and likely in most cases, I think you'd be able to get the ticket thrown out. I'm not an attorney, but based on how the law reads, they can't have it both ways you're either a hobby or a business. It's like the FMCSA doesn't even know what the IRS rules are.  
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jropergirl
Reg. Jun 2005
Posted 2018-01-02 6:13 PM
Subject: RE: The DOT, horse rigs and the new log systems



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kwanatha - 2017-12-29 3:57 PM I guess grandma needs her cdl for when she drives to bingo or thr casino . She just might win money

 she's exempt because she's only driving a car... but don't let her go in a dually -- then she weighs enough! it's ludicrous. 
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3canstorun
Reg. May 2007
Posted 2018-01-03 7:50 AM
Subject: RE: The DOT, horse rigs and the new log systems



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jropergirl - 2018-01-02 7:02 PM  Yes, that is what I meant  re: that 26,001, is a number someone pulled out of their A$$. That is my point. It has zero meaning and captures people it has no business capturing. Even the websites that want to inform commercial drivers about the mandate, have no idea it will force most rodeo competitors into "submission". 



I realize (now) it's been a law since 1986, but that doesn't mean it has any rhyme or reason as to the thought process behind the seemly random CGVWR that forces someone who drives a dually and pulls a 4h with LQ to get a CDL. Most of what the federal governement does has no rhyme or reason, imo. Hehe.  And if it's been around for so long, why wasn't this an issue when I was college rodeoing, pulling a big rig? Why am I just now hearing about this at 40 years old? That's the issue I have -- how has the horse industry as a whole had zero clues that this was even a thing that affected them? 

You are just now hearing about it because it is an easy target and the governments needs money.  Pure and simple. 

If a local government knows about these laws, they can pull you over and get the fine money.   You pay the fine, or the license is suspended. 
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RedHead84
Reg. Dec 2014
Posted 2018-01-03 8:43 AM
Subject: RE: The DOT, horse rigs and the new log systems



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I thought this was helpful.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PKp7-i07WnQ
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WetSaddleBlankets
Reg. Nov 2010
Posted 2018-01-03 11:50 AM
Subject: RE: The DOT, horse rigs and the new log systems


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 Here is a brand new news story for you. https://www.kjrh.com/news/local-news/us-dot-cracking-down-on-cdls-fo...
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foundation horse
Reg. Aug 2004
Posted 2018-01-03 12:17 PM
Subject: RE: The DOT, horse rigs and the new log systems


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3canstorun - 2018-01-03 7:50 AM

jropergirl - 2018-01-02 7:02 PM  Yes, that is what I meant  re: that 26,001, is a number someone pulled out of their A$$. That is my point. It has zero meaning and captures people it has no business capturing. Even the websites that want to inform commercial drivers about the mandate, have no idea it will force most rodeo competitors into "submission". 



I realize (now) it's been a law since 1986, but that doesn't mean it has any rhyme or reason as to the thought process behind the seemly random CGVWR that forces someone who drives a dually and pulls a 4h with LQ to get a CDL. Most of what the federal governement does has no rhyme or reason, imo. Hehe.  And if it's been around for so long, why wasn't this an issue when I was college rodeoing, pulling a big rig? Why am I just now hearing about this at 40 years old? That's the issue I have -- how has the horse industry as a whole had zero clues that this was even a thing that affected them? 

You are just now hearing about it because it is an easy target and the governments needs money.  Pure and simple. 

If a local government knows about these laws, they can pull you over and get the fine money.   You pay the fine, or the license is suspended. 

Enforcement of these so called "obscure" regulations is just the doctor ordered for cash strapped municipalities. Those of Us on this Board who have experience with Trucks, Trucking Regulations and the insane federal regulations associated with the ICC, DOT, etc. have known about this regs for A LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG time. And now the proverbial 'light bulb' has gone off in Municipal Manager's Head. Hey, here is a relatively pain free stream of revenue!
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Red Raider
Reg. Jul 2010
Posted 2018-01-03 12:22 PM
Subject: RE: The DOT, horse rigs and the new log systems



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SC Wrangler - 2018-01-02 1:25 PM There is a HUGE difference in how the DOT rules/laws are enforced state to state.  Many states have very lenient rules when it comes to exempting RV's from the mandates. Ain't no way all the old geezers (blind, crippled and dangerous in a compact car) driving or pulling big RVs have CDLs, and log systems.   I would suggest that individuals take a look at the state rules as they pertain to RV's, see how they apply to your rig and situation, and make decisions accordingly.

I usually try to stay out of these posts because things like attorney-client relationship gets implied sometimes but I will chime in to say this is probably the best post in here on what you should probably do.  I keep seeing posts about RV's being exempt and living quarter trailers exempt under RV rules and that's just not always the case. 

Know your state and know the rules of any state that you travel in.  Please understand that once you cross that state line, the 26,001 weight limit rule goes to 10,001 pounds and that is going to involve pretty much anybody -- including myself who owns a 2006 F-150 Ford (7000 GVWR) and pulls a 2 horse gooseneck/no LV (7200 GVWR) for a combined total of 14,200 GVWR.  Some states may not care but other states will and do have more of an active enforcement of these provisions.  I used to be an elected prosecutor for an area that did enforce this rule and yes, I did handle a few of these "10,001/state line" tickets involving activities for profit -- including what we do.  You never know who you are going to be dealing with out there so it's best to know up front before you encounter someone who can call your bluff. 

I also want to say that while everybody on here is focused on not making money by competing, a word to the wise would probably include some type of disclaimer to any of you who are independent sales people for such businesses like horse supplements to human weight-loss/energy to even Scentsy.  You know how you probably throw a couple of those products in the back of the truck to sell or have them in the trailer?  Heck, you probably keep a few in the car/truck at all times in case you meet people who buy from you and they need something when they meet you on the sidewalk or wherever.  Well, if I was you, you probably should make sure that those aren't readily visible to anybody looking through your windows or who can see the "independent dealer" sticker on your truck that you use as advertisement for those items.  You might be headed to a trail ride with your horse but those type of things will probably land you in the "commercial zone" and in hot water if you aren't careful.    

 
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Red Raider
Reg. Jul 2010
Posted 2018-01-03 12:30 PM
Subject: RE: The DOT, horse rigs and the new log systems



Toastest with the Mostest


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foundation horse - 2018-01-03 12:17 PM
3canstorun - 2018-01-03 7:50 AM
jropergirl - 2018-01-02 7:02 PM  Yes, that is what I meant  re: that 26,001, is a number someone pulled out of their A$$. That is my point. It has zero meaning and captures people it has no business capturing. Even the websites that want to inform commercial drivers about the mandate, have no idea it will force most rodeo competitors into "submission". 



I realize (now) it's been a law since 1986, but that doesn't mean it has any rhyme or reason as to the thought process behind the seemly random CGVWR that forces someone who drives a dually and pulls a 4h with LQ to get a CDL. Most of what the federal governement does has no rhyme or reason, imo. Hehe.  And if it's been around for so long, why wasn't this an issue when I was college rodeoing, pulling a big rig? Why am I just now hearing about this at 40 years old? That's the issue I have -- how has the horse industry as a whole had zero clues that this was even a thing that affected them? 
You are just now hearing about it because it is an easy target and the governments needs money.  Pure and simple. 



If a local government knows about these laws, they can pull you over and get the fine money.   You pay the fine, or the license is suspended. 
Enforcement of these so called "obscure" regulations is just the doctor ordered for cash strapped municipalities. Those of Us on this Board who have experience with Trucks, Trucking Regulations and the insane federal regulations associated with the ICC, DOT, etc. have known about this regs for A LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG time. And now the proverbial 'light bulb' has gone off in Municipal Manager's Head. Hey, here is a relatively pain free stream of revenue!

When I was in office, it wasn't a local decision to enforce the provisions but one that came down the pipeline to my DPS DOT officers from up on high.  I remember going to a conference for 3 days at the end of one week and coming back to a full voicemail box of pi$$ed off people leaving me messages over their tickets on these.  I saw my guys at lunch and was like "Hey, thanks a bunch on those tickets!" and they were like "Sorry, not us but the higher ups who said to start enforcing the provisions."  I figured out ways of working around the worst of them for most people -- others who gave me tons of grief over the issue didn't get such a favorable outcome.   
 
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foundation horse
Reg. Aug 2004
Posted 2018-01-03 12:33 PM
Subject: RE: The DOT, horse rigs and the new log systems


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Red Raider - 2018-01-03 12:22 PM
SC Wrangler - 2018-01-02 1:25 PM There is a HUGE difference in how the DOT rules/laws are enforced state to state.  Many states have very lenient rules when it comes to exempting RV's from the mandates. Ain't no way all the old geezers (blind, crippled and dangerous in a compact car) driving or pulling big RVs have CDLs, and log systems.   I would suggest that individuals take a look at the state rules as they pertain to RV's, see how they apply to your rig and situation, and make decisions accordingly.
I usually try to stay out of these posts because things like attorney-client relationship gets implied sometimes but I will chime in to say this is probably the best post in here on what you should probably do.  I keep seeing posts about RV's being exempt and living quarter trailers exempt under RV rules and that's just not always the case. 



Know your state and know the rules of any state that you travel in.  Please understand that once you cross that state line, the 26,001 weight limit rule goes to 10,001 pounds and that is going to involve pretty much anybody -- including myself who owns a 2006 F-150 Ford (7000 GVWR) and pulls a 2 horse gooseneck/no LV (7200 GVWR) for a combined total of 14,200 GVWR.  Some states may not care but other states will and do have more of an active enforcement of these provisions.  I used to be an elected prosecutor for an area that did enforce this rule and yes, I did handle a few of these "10,001/state line" tickets involving activities for profit -- including what we do.  You never know who you are going to be dealing with out there so it's best to know up front before you encounter someone who can call your bluff. 



I also want to say that while everybody on here is focused on not making money by competing, a word to the wise would probably include some type of disclaimer to any of you who are independent sales people for such businesses like horse supplements to human weight-loss/energy to even Scentsy.  You know how you probably throw a couple of those products in the back of the truck to sell or have them in the trailer?  Heck, you probably keep a few in the car/truck at all times in case you meet people who buy from you and they need something when they meet you on the sidewalk or wherever.  Well, if I was you, you probably should make sure that those aren't readily visible to anybody looking through your windows or who can see the "independent dealer" sticker on your truck that you use as advertisement for those items.  You might be headed to a trail ride with your horse but those type of things will probably land you in the "commercial zone" and in hot water if you aren't careful.    


 

While One could attempt to Invoke The Fouth Amendment in regards to the highlighted text, I strongly doubt it would helpl. Red Raider is absolutely correct in removing from public any type product One does not want to be easily viewed.
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