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Expert
Posts: 1477
  
Location: In the land of peanuts and cotton | Yes his teeth are UTD.... I have a 3yr old that I started in April. He didn't like anything I put in his mouth and I didn't like the bit he was broke in. I finally found one he liked and everything was going great. Now he is completely ignoring it. I've decided he hates bits period but I really don't think he will ride in a hack. The one I been using is made identicle to the Ed Wright gag bit except it has a solid round bar mullen mouth. Looking for any suggestions. He still trail rides and slow works great in it but not when I try for a little speed. |
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 Expert
Posts: 1898
| By started in April do you mean on the pattern or under saddle? Regardless it may be he needs more slow work before you start adding speed rather than a bit change. I am not a huge fan of the mullen on young horses. I have found that there are very few horses that work really well in one, but they do exist. I find that young horses especially will learn to lean on it and get really stiff.
To answer your question your post leaves a lot of questions regarding your current bit. I am curious why you went to a mullen gag? Is it short or long shanked? What is he doing that you want to correct? Is he shaking his head, gaping his mouth, elevating his nose, stiff, not rating? What didn't you like about the bit he was started in?
A little more info would help people make suggestions for you.  ↑ Top ↓ Bottom |
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Expert
Posts: 1477
Location: In the land of peanuts and cotton | cyount2009 - 2014-05-29 12:48 PM
By started in April do you mean on the pattern or under saddle? Regardless it may be he needs more slow work before you start adding speed rather than a bit change. I am not a huge fan of the mullen on young horses. I have found that there are very few horses that work really well in one, but they do exist. I find that young horses especially will learn to lean on it and get really stiff.
To answer your question your post leaves a lot of questions regarding your current bit. I am curious why you went to a mullen gag? Is it short or long shanked? What is he doing that you want to correct? Is he shaking his head, gaping his mouth, elevating his nose, stiff, not rating? What didn't you like about the bit he was started in?
A little more info would help people make suggestions for you. 
Edited to add: he has never shook his head with the Mullen but he does with everything else. Edited by TessBelle 2014-05-29 1:32 PM
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Expert
Posts: 1898
| TessBelle - 2014-05-29 1:30 PM
cyount2009 - 2014-05-29 12:48 PM
By started in April do you mean on the pattern or under saddle? Regardless it may be he needs more slow work before you start adding speed rather than a bit change. I am not a huge fan of the mullen on young horses. I have found that there are very few horses that work really well in one, but they do exist. I find that young horses especially will learn to lean on it and get really stiff.
To answer your question your post leaves a lot of questions regarding your current bit. I am curious why you went to a mullen gag? Is it short or long shanked? What is he doing that you want to correct? Is he shaking his head, gaping his mouth, elevating his nose, stiff, not rating? What didn't you like about the bit he was started in?
A little more info would help people make suggestions for you.
Edited to add: he has never shook his head with the Mullen but he does with everything else.
Well not shaking his head is a start but you still didn't answer the other questions or indicate what specific problem you are trying to solve. I would love to help, I just need more info. |
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Expert
Posts: 1477
Location: In the land of peanuts and cotton | cyount2009 - 2014-05-29 1:34 PM
TessBelle - 2014-05-29 1:30 PM
cyount2009 - 2014-05-29 12:48 PM
By started in April do you mean on the pattern or under saddle? Regardless it may be he needs more slow work before you start adding speed rather than a bit change. I am not a huge fan of the mullen on young horses. I have found that there are very few horses that work really well in one, but they do exist. I find that young horses especially will learn to lean on it and get really stiff.
To answer your question your post leaves a lot of questions regarding your current bit. I am curious why you went to a mullen gag? Is it short or long shanked? What is he doing that you want to correct? Is he shaking his head, gaping his mouth, elevating his nose, stiff, not rating? What didn't you like about the bit he was started in?
A little more info would help people make suggestions for you.
Edited to add: he has never shook his head with the Mullen but he does with everything else.
Well not shaking his head is a start but you still didn't answer the other questions or indicate what specific problem you are trying to solve. I would love to help, I just need more info.
I tried lol. I might could have worded it better. I want more turn. He makes wide sloppy turns no matter how light or hard I pull. Edited by TessBelle 2014-05-29 1:44 PM
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Expert
Posts: 1898
| How long has he been on the pattern?
Have you tried something with a chain mouth piece? I think this is comparable in shank to what you are using now with a chain mouth. Have you tried something like this?
http://www.smithbrothers.com/molly-powell-rookie-bit/p/X3-0113/?EID...
A chain mouth is my go-to on a horse with a funny mouth. It lays flat on the tongue and lips with little to no contact with the pallet. I love the amount of flex and control I get from the chain.
ETA: Is he coming out wide? I could suggest some drills for you if you would like, to help him engage his hind end and drive his inside leg up under his belly. It sounds like he might be getting strung out in his turns.
Edited by cyount2009 2014-05-29 2:03 PM
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| TessBelle - 2014-05-29 1:43 PM
cyount2009 - 2014-05-29 1:34 PM
TessBelle - 2014-05-29 1:30 PM
cyount2009 - 2014-05-29 12:48 PM
By started in April do you mean on the pattern or under saddle? Regardless it may be he needs more slow work before you start adding speed rather than a bit change. I am not a huge fan of the mullen on young horses. I have found that there are very few horses that work really well in one, but they do exist. I find that young horses especially will learn to lean on it and get really stiff.
To answer your question your post leaves a lot of questions regarding your current bit. I am curious why you went to a mullen gag? Is it short or long shanked? What is he doing that you want to correct? Is he shaking his head, gaping his mouth, elevating his nose, stiff, not rating? What didn't you like about the bit he was started in?
A little more info would help people make suggestions for you.
Edited to add: he has never shook his head with the Mullen but he does with everything else.
Well not shaking his head is a start but you still didn't answer the other questions or indicate what specific problem you are trying to solve. I would love to help, I just need more info.
I tried lol. I might could have worded it better. I want more turn. He makes wide sloppy turns no matter how light or hard I pull.
If you want tighter turns, I would say work on that away from the pattern.
There is no miracle bit for tighter turns, it all comes with training, hard work, and determination.
My colts don't go onto the pattern until they can lope small circles, and I have control of their entire body. |
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Expert
Posts: 1477
Location: In the land of peanuts and cotton | cheryl makofka - 2014-05-29 2:00 PM
TessBelle - 2014-05-29 1:43 PM
cyount2009 - 2014-05-29 1:34 PM
TessBelle - 2014-05-29 1:30 PM
cyount2009 - 2014-05-29 12:48 PM
By started in April do you mean on the pattern or under saddle? Regardless it may be he needs more slow work before you start adding speed rather than a bit change. I am not a huge fan of the mullen on young horses. I have found that there are very few horses that work really well in one, but they do exist. I find that young horses especially will learn to lean on it and get really stiff.
To answer your question your post leaves a lot of questions regarding your current bit. I am curious why you went to a mullen gag? Is it short or long shanked? What is he doing that you want to correct? Is he shaking his head, gaping his mouth, elevating his nose, stiff, not rating? What didn't you like about the bit he was started in?
A little more info would help people make suggestions for you.
Edited to add: he has never shook his head with the Mullen but he does with everything else.
Well not shaking his head is a start but you still didn't answer the other questions or indicate what specific problem you are trying to solve. I would love to help, I just need more info.
I tried lol. I might could have worded it better. I want more turn. He makes wide sloppy turns no matter how light or hard I pull.
If you want tighter turns, I would say work on that away from the pattern.
There is no miracle bit for tighter turns, it all comes with training, hard work, and determination.
My colts don't go onto the pattern until they can lope small circles, and I have control of their entire body.
That's the problem. He was loping a very nice pattern and I was even entering him in some 5D barrel races. But seems over night something has happened and he pays absolutely no attention to me. |
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  Warmblood with Wings
Posts: 27846
Location: Florida.. | Hes 3 and only started a month ago.. time will help and basic foundation work. cant expect him to be tight yet. |
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Expert
Posts: 1477
Location: In the land of peanuts and cotton | cyount2009 - 2014-05-29 1:59 PM
How long has he been on the pattern?
Have you tried something with a chain mouth piece? I think this is comparable in shank to what you are using now with a chain mouth. Have you tried something like this?
http://www.smithbrothers.com/molly-powell-rookie-bit/p/X3-0113/?EID...
A chain mouth is my go-to on a horse with a funny mouth. It lays flat on the tongue and lips with little to no contact with the pallet. I love the amount of flex and control I get from the chain.
ETA: Is he coming out wide? I could suggest some drills for you if you would like, to help him engage his hind end and drive his inside leg up under his belly. It sounds like he might be getting strung out in his turns.
Thats exactly what he's doing. Someone suggested taking him in a little wider and maknf him come out tighter but that didn't fix it. |
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| TessBelle - 2014-05-29 2:06 PM
cyount2009 - 2014-05-29 1:59 PM
How long has he been on the pattern?
Have you tried something with a chain mouth piece? I think this is comparable in shank to what you are using now with a chain mouth. Have you tried something like this?
http://www.smithbrothers.com/molly-powell-rookie-bit/p/X3-0113/?EID...
A chain mouth is my go-to on a horse with a funny mouth. It lays flat on the tongue and lips with little to no contact with the pallet. I love the amount of flex and control I get from the chain.
ETA: Is he coming out wide? I could suggest some drills for you if you would like, to help him engage his hind end and drive his inside leg up under his belly. It sounds like he might be getting strung out in his turns.
Thats exactly what he's doing. Someone suggested taking him in a little wider and maknf him come out tighter but that didn't fix it.
For that young and entering races, he may be on the verge of being blown up.
I would stay away from barrels, just ride him, work on control.
I would also vet check by the best lameness vet I could find, I would also get chiro and massage to work on him make sure tmj is not affecting him |
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Expert
Posts: 1477
Location: In the land of peanuts and cotton | cheryl makofka - 2014-05-29 2:08 PM
TessBelle - 2014-05-29 2:06 PM
cyount2009 - 2014-05-29 1:59 PM
How long has he been on the pattern?
Have you tried something with a chain mouth piece? I think this is comparable in shank to what you are using now with a chain mouth. Have you tried something like this?
http://www.smithbrothers.com/molly-powell-rookie-bit/p/X3-0113/?EID...
A chain mouth is my go-to on a horse with a funny mouth. It lays flat on the tongue and lips with little to no contact with the pallet. I love the amount of flex and control I get from the chain.
ETA: Is he coming out wide? I could suggest some drills for you if you would like, to help him engage his hind end and drive his inside leg up under his belly. It sounds like he might be getting strung out in his turns.
Thats exactly what he's doing. Someone suggested taking him in a little wider and maknf him come out tighter but that didn't fix it.
For that young and entering races, he may be on the verge of being blown up.
I would stay away from barrels, just ride him, work on control.
I would also vet check by the best lameness vet I could find, I would also get chiro and massage to work on him make sure tmj is not affecting him
Done vet and Chiro. Nothing wrong. Had his teeth done by equine dentist in October and agin April 19th |
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Expert
Posts: 1898
| cheryl makofka - 2014-05-29 2:08 PM
TessBelle - 2014-05-29 2:06 PM
cyount2009 - 2014-05-29 1:59 PM
How long has he been on the pattern?
Have you tried something with a chain mouth piece? I think this is comparable in shank to what you are using now with a chain mouth. Have you tried something like this?
http://www.smithbrothers.com/molly-powell-rookie-bit/p/X3-0113/?EID...
A chain mouth is my go-to on a horse with a funny mouth. It lays flat on the tongue and lips with little to no contact with the pallet. I love the amount of flex and control I get from the chain.
ETA: Is he coming out wide? I could suggest some drills for you if you would like, to help him engage his hind end and drive his inside leg up under his belly. It sounds like he might be getting strung out in his turns.
Thats exactly what he's doing. Someone suggested taking him in a little wider and maknf him come out tighter but that didn't fix it.
For that young and entering races, he may be on the verge of being blown up.
I would stay away from barrels, just ride him, work on control.
I would also vet check by the best lameness vet I could find, I would also get chiro and massage to work on him make sure tmj is not affecting him
Ultimately he is your horse and there for the decision is all yours on what approach you want to take. I have to agree with Cheryl. He is very young and it may just be to much pressure. I don't like to start adding speed (anything more that trot) on my colts until I have at least 4 good solid months of foundation on them, I am not hitting the futurities so I can take all the time the horse needs. I want to make sure I have control of their entire body.
The bit you are riding in now is quite a lot for such a young horse in my opinion, but that's just me. If it was my horse I would go back to a good twisted wire snaffle and a German martingale and get back to basics.
Ask yourself these questions regarding his dry work, not on the pattern:
1. Does he break at the poll when asked?
2. Does he respond to voice and seat commands to stop, slow down or move forward?
3. Does he move off your leg in both directions?
4. When moving off your leg is he crossing over in the front or dragging his out side leg?
5. Does he counter arch?
6. Will he plant his inside hind leg and pivot off your outside leg?
8. Can he do correct lead changes?
9. Can he do correct roll backs?
10. Does he flex in both directions? (When riding in a tight circle his body should make a slight "C" around your leg?
If you can't answer "yes" to all those questions he needs more basics. The more basics you do, the broker he will be and the better he will be on the pattern. 3 is pretty young to be in that much bit already. There is only so many rungs in the bit ladder and once you have reached the top there is no where else to go. You are better off to fix it with slow work and dry work than try to mask it with steal. You want him to love his job not hate it.
Take a look at this site. These are some drills that Judy Myllymaki suggests.
http://myllymakibarrelhorses.com/workshops.html
Also, get on YouTube and watch everything tutorial you can find of known barrel horse and cow horse trainers. If you need some names PM me and I will send you over some. Subscribe to Barrel Horse News, there are always really good training articles in it. Get online and find used books! Educate yourself and you and your horse will be much less frustrated with each other.
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Expert
Posts: 1477
Location: In the land of peanuts and cotton | cyount2009 - 2014-05-29 2:34 PM
cheryl makofka - 2014-05-29 2:08 PM
TessBelle - 2014-05-29 2:06 PM
cyount2009 - 2014-05-29 1:59 PM
How long has he been on the pattern?
Have you tried something with a chain mouth piece? I think this is comparable in shank to what you are using now with a chain mouth. Have you tried something like this?
http://www.smithbrothers.com/molly-powell-rookie-bit/p/X3-0113/?EID...
A chain mouth is my go-to on a horse with a funny mouth. It lays flat on the tongue and lips with little to no contact with the pallet. I love the amount of flex and control I get from the chain.
ETA: Is he coming out wide? I could suggest some drills for you if you would like, to help him engage his hind end and drive his inside leg up under his belly. It sounds like he might be getting strung out in his turns.
Thats exactly what he's doing. Someone suggested taking him in a little wider and maknf him come out tighter but that didn't fix it.
For that young and entering races, he may be on the verge of being blown up.
I would stay away from barrels, just ride him, work on control.
I would also vet check by the best lameness vet I could find, I would also get chiro and massage to work on him make sure tmj is not affecting him
Ultimately he is your horse and there for the decision is all yours on what approach you want to take. I have to agree with Cheryl. He is very young and it may just be to much pressure. I don't like to start adding speed (anything more that trot ) on my colts until I have at least 4 good solid months of foundation on them, I am not hitting the futurities so I can take all the time the horse needs. I want to make sure I have control of their entire body.
The bit you are riding in now is quite a lot for such a young horse in my opinion, but that's just me. If it was my horse I would go back to a good twisted wire snaffle and a German martingale and get back to basics.
Ask yourself these questions regarding his dry work, not on the pattern:
1. Does he break at the poll when asked?
2. Does he respond to voice and seat commands to stop, slow down or move forward?
3. Does he move off your leg in both directions?
4. When moving off your leg is he crossing over in the front or dragging his out side leg?
5. Does he counter arch?
6. Will he plant his inside hind leg and pivot off your outside leg?
8. Can he do correct lead changes?
9. Can he do correct roll backs?
10. Does he flex in both directions? (When riding in a tight circle his body should make a slight "C" around your leg?
If you can't answer "yes" to all those questions he needs more basics. The more basics you do, the broker he will be and the better he will be on the pattern. 3 is pretty young to be in that much bit already. There is only so many rungs in the bit ladder and once you have reached the top there is no where else to go. You are better off to fix it with slow work and dry work than try to mask it with steal. You want him to love his job not hate it.
Take a look at this site. These are some drills that Judy Myllymaki suggests.
http://myllymakibarrelhorses.com/workshops.html
Also, get on YouTube and watch everything tutorial you can find of known barrel horse and cow horse trainers. If you need some names PM me and I will send you over some. Subscribe to Barrel Horse News, there are always really good training articles in it. Get online and find used books! Educate yourself and you and your horse will be much less frustrated with each other.
Yes to everything except #6. He had 6m cutting training and 4m of me just riding him. I didn't know that this particular bit was rough. I though it was very very easy bit. Had I known this I probably wouldn't have put it on him. I haul with a well known trainer but I'm too stubborn to let her work with him because I want to be able to do it on my own. But I think I'm going to have to have help.
Edited by TessBelle 2014-05-29 3:02 PM
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Expert
Posts: 1898
| TessBelle - 2014-05-29 3:00 PM
cyount2009 - 2014-05-29 2:34 PM
cheryl makofka - 2014-05-29 2:08 PM
TessBelle - 2014-05-29 2:06 PM
cyount2009 - 2014-05-29 1:59 PM
How long has he been on the pattern?
Have you tried something with a chain mouth piece? I think this is comparable in shank to what you are using now with a chain mouth. Have you tried something like this?
http://www.smithbrothers.com/molly-powell-rookie-bit/p/X3-0113/?EID...
A chain mouth is my go-to on a horse with a funny mouth. It lays flat on the tongue and lips with little to no contact with the pallet. I love the amount of flex and control I get from the chain.
ETA: Is he coming out wide? I could suggest some drills for you if you would like, to help him engage his hind end and drive his inside leg up under his belly. It sounds like he might be getting strung out in his turns.
Thats exactly what he's doing. Someone suggested taking him in a little wider and maknf him come out tighter but that didn't fix it.
For that young and entering races, he may be on the verge of being blown up.
I would stay away from barrels, just ride him, work on control.
I would also vet check by the best lameness vet I could find, I would also get chiro and massage to work on him make sure tmj is not affecting him
Ultimately he is your horse and there for the decision is all yours on what approach you want to take. I have to agree with Cheryl. He is very young and it may just be to much pressure. I don't like to start adding speed (anything more that trot ) on my colts until I have at least 4 good solid months of foundation on them, I am not hitting the futurities so I can take all the time the horse needs. I want to make sure I have control of their entire body.
The bit you are riding in now is quite a lot for such a young horse in my opinion, but that's just me. If it was my horse I would go back to a good twisted wire snaffle and a German martingale and get back to basics.
Ask yourself these questions regarding his dry work, not on the pattern:
1. Does he break at the poll when asked?
2. Does he respond to voice and seat commands to stop, slow down or move forward?
3. Does he move off your leg in both directions?
4. When moving off your leg is he crossing over in the front or dragging his out side leg?
5. Does he counter arch?
6. Will he plant his inside hind leg and pivot off your outside leg?
8. Can he do correct lead changes?
9. Can he do correct roll backs?
10. Does he flex in both directions? (When riding in a tight circle his body should make a slight "C" around your leg?
If you can't answer "yes" to all those questions he needs more basics. The more basics you do, the broker he will be and the better he will be on the pattern. 3 is pretty young to be in that much bit already. There is only so many rungs in the bit ladder and once you have reached the top there is no where else to go. You are better off to fix it with slow work and dry work than try to mask it with steal. You want him to love his job not hate it.
Take a look at this site. These are some drills that Judy Myllymaki suggests.
http://myllymakibarrelhorses.com/workshops.html
Also, get on YouTube and watch everything tutorial you can find of known barrel horse and cow horse trainers. If you need some names PM me and I will send you over some. Subscribe to Barrel Horse News, there are always really good training articles in it. Get online and find used books! Educate yourself and you and your horse will be much less frustrated with each other.
Yes to everything except #6. He had 6m cutting training and 4m of me just riding him. I didn't know that this particular bit was rough. I though it was very very easy bit. Had I known this I probably wouldn't have put it on him. I haul with a well known trainer but I'm too stubborn to let her work with him because I want to be able to do it on my own. But I think I'm going to have to have help.
If he had cutting training it doesn't surprise me that he doesn't pivot off his inside leg. The cutting trainer I worked for, trained his horse to pivot off the outside leg so they could push off with it when working a cow.
Bits can be tricky. Don't feel bad. If you are traveling with a trainer, let him/her help you. You don't have to let them do it but listen and try to apply what they offer! Good luck! |
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 Money Eating Baggage Owner
Posts: 9586
Location: Phoenix | He's THREE.
Back to basics...sounds like he doesn't respect the bit. |
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 Sock eating dog owner
Posts: 4557
Location: Where the pavement ends and the West begins Utah | Forget the barrels. Take him out on the trails and build those muscles. He needs to be strong enough through out the body and legs in order to execute those better turns. He is only 3 but he is still learning to carry your weight. Build him up then come back and work you circles. |
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 Expert
Posts: 1482
Location: on my horse | I don't generally even start my 3 yr olds under saddle much less on the pattern so I don't really have any advice other than this sounds like baby stuff and maybe slow down on him and let him mature a little bit and bring him back to the pattern either later this year or next year.
He sounds like he's been pushed a lot/had a lot thrown at him at a very young age and may just need some time to process everything, he may be bracing on you and bowing off from lack of confidence or frustration from mental overload. JMO if he was mine I would leave the pattern alone and just ride the horse work on super basic stuff that he already knows to instill him some confidence and slow his life down a little bit.
The last thing you want is to sour him up on the pattern before he is really even ready to enter.
Good luck with your boy he sounds like something special, keep us updated on his progress!  |
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Expert
Posts: 1482
Location: on my horse | I don't generally even start my 3 yr olds under saddle much less on the pattern so I don't really have any advice other than this sounds like baby stuff and maybe slow down on him and let him mature a little bit and bring him back to the pattern either later this year or next year.
He sounds like he's been pushed a lot/had a lot thrown at him at a very young age and may just need some time to process everything, he may be bracing on you and bowing off from lack of confidence or frustration from mental overload. JMO if he was mine I would leave the pattern alone and just ride the horse work on super basic stuff that he already knows to instill him some confidence and slow his life down a little bit.
The last thing you want is to sour him up on the pattern before he is really even ready to enter.
Good luck with your boy he sounds like something special, keep us updated on his progress!
ETA: Sorry for the double post!
Edited by redmansmyman11 2014-05-29 11:57 PM
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